The 9MM and Power Pistol

[57K]

Yeah, I'm sure Alliant will clear it up for you. Maybe you'll post what they tell you in order to aid others from being confused.

[GJSchulze]

I found an article on the Nosler forum that shows a photo of the types. The photo of the extruded flake does look the same as PP. The image and description of flattened ball says it's slightly flattened. We'll wait for what Alliant says, but 57k may be correct. I've read that there are three types: ball, flake, and extruded. So if there is extruded flake, which is it? It brings to mind a roll of cookie dough being sliced.

If someone can point to some articles describing the characteristics of the different shapes and how they are made, I think we all would find them interesting.

57k, the reason I, and probably Brian, disagreed is that it is common for there to be conflicting writings about a lot of gun related things. This includes opinions of what should be factual matters being diametrically opposed. I assumed that flattened really meant flat and not slightly flat.

[57K]

GJ, I started using Power Pistol right after it was introduced after having used several flake powders. Not only is there no doubt in my mind that it's an extruded flake powder, the various load manuals should give an adequate description and in some cases there are pics of the different types.

Most sphericals are flattened and not truly ball in shape. Most are also significantly smaller than flake powders. In some cases like True Blue, AA#5 & 7, as well as some of the magnum handgun propellants, extremely so. True Blue comes closer to being a true ball shape while all 3 are very dense and fine in physical grain size. As far as metering, higher density with smaller physical size means they will drop more uniformly under gravity into the cylinder in the powder drum of a measure.

I got away from the use of flake powders at least 15 years ago. Partly because they flash greater and partly because of the better metering possible with sphericals. Winchester developed and maybe even copyrighted the term Ball Powder even while most of them are flattened sphericals.

[Clark]

Power Pistol was known as Bullseye86 at one time.
Bullseye was once floor sweepings from manufacturing Unique.
I cannot tell the difference between Power Pistol and Bullseye in appearance nor odor.
I can tell the difference in density.
I can tell the difference in burning speed.
And I can tell the difference in containers

The most power I can get out of 9x17mm, 9x19mm, and 9x23mm is with Power Pistol and 158 gr bullets.

And I have spend hundreds of hours trying a lot of powders and a lot of bullets.

[Mike Irwin]

"Bullseye was once floor sweepings from manufacturing Unique."

Actually, the claim was that it was the "fines" left over from the from the manufacture of Infalliable shotgun powder.

However, the manufacturing process used to make Infalliable makes that highly unlikely.

A Laughlin and Rand historian (his history of the company is available on the web, interesting reading) has examined early Bullseye and his opinion is that early Bullseye was a specific and purposeful change in how Infalliable was granulated.

Early Bullseye was a non-cannister powder; it wasn't offered as a cannister powder until the early 1900s.

But, even today apparently, Bullseye and Unique are the exact same powder forumulation. The only difference is the size of the granulation, which controls burning.

[Brutus]

Sorry guys, I don't really care about it's characteristics onaconda it's the only thing available on the shelves of my local GS. It is what I can get.
So some chorno results would be really appreciated.

[Clark]

Brutus
So some chorno results would be really appreciated.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
The Alliant max load for 124 gr Power Pistol in 9mm is 6.4 gr.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloade...23&bulletid=26
For a while I have been shooting 11 gr 158 gr.
But that is a lot of trouble to load and shoot.
The pain from recoil of one round hurts my hand for a few minutes.
So I had a large quantity of 124 gr 10 gr Power Pistol loaded on a Dillon.
That I can rapid fire in a big Heavy Beretta 92 with it's wide grip [more area to keep below the threshold of pain on the skin ~ 20 psi].
But the recoil of 10 gr load still hurts in a Kel-Tec single stack PF9.
range report 2009-02-06 ...
Kel-Tec PF9 3.1" barrel
1) 124 gr FN Honady bullets and 10 gr Power Pistol. 1336 fps.
2) Hirtenberger +P+ 1275 fps 100 gr
But the Kel-Tec PF9 is still a good gun, and the recoil from the Hintenberger +P+ factory ammo does not hurt at all.

[Nick_C_S]

I cannot tell the difference between Power Pistol and Bullseye in appearance nor odor.

It's been a while, so I'll have to go take another look (later, I'm at work right now). But if memory serves, I remember PP being larger flakes than B'eye. They both have that distinctive dull pale gray color, and strong (but oddly pleasant) odor though.

(And they're both clearly flake powders .)

[GJSchulze]

Power Pistol was known as Bullseye86

BE-86 is the new stuff. I read that BE-84 was the factory version of Power Pistol.

[Old 454]

I like PP a lot.
I just loaded 100 rds. with it.

CAUTION THIS IS MY LOAD. WORK UP FOR YOUR LOADS.

124 Gr. xstream plated Hp.
5.7 Gr PP
OAL 1.075
Winchester SP primers

These will be for my LC9 Ruger.

[Clark]

GJSchulze
BE-86 is the new stuff. I read that BE-84 was the factory version of Power Pistol.

But I transcribed it directly from my memory

[Nick_C_S]

(Clark: ) I cannot tell the difference between Power Pistol and Bullseye in appearance nor odor.

(Me: ) It's been a while, so I'll have to go take another look.

I have both Bullseye and Power Pistol in front of me right now. They look identical. Learn something every day.

[Clark]

Yeah, two good reasons not to leave the Power Pistol in the powder measure hopper:
1) It might get confused with Bullseye.
2) It etches the plastic.

[GJSchulze]

I have both Bullseye and Power Pistol in front of me right now. They look identical. Learn something every day

Don't all the loading manuals tell you not to try identifying powders by appearance? Looking alike only means that maybe they're the same. Looking different would definitely mean they're different.

Powders are made from nitrocellulose with nitroglycerine added to make double based powders. There are about five shapes. The other difference is chemicals added to change the burn rate and other chemicals to modify other aspects. With as many powders as there are, I would expect a lot of powders to look alike.

Bullseye is 6th on the burn rate chart (that I consulted) while Power Pistol is down around 39th. No charts I looked at include BE-86.

[Mike Irwin]

"No charts I looked at include BE-86."

That's a manufacturer-specific designation, very likely for the basic nitrocellulose blend with no deterrent coatings added and prior to the powder being granulated.

Once it is granulated, the varying deterrent coatings are applied, and various lots are mixed to control the burning properties to arrive at a cannister forumulation sold to reloaders, that's when it becomes Bullseye, Unique, Power Pistol, etc.

[Peter M. Eick]

http://www.alliantpowder.com/

BE-86 is a new powder from Alliant. The gossip I have read is it is BE-84 (Powder Pistol) with a flash suppressant. I expect that when it is available it will over take powder pistol quickly as some folks don't seem to like the flash. Since I shoot outside during daylight it is rarely and issue for me.

No reload data is available yet for BE-86. Since no powder is available it seems appropriate....

[Jim Watson]

Phil Sharpe, writing in 1937, said that the original 1898 Bullseye was made from screenings, the fine particles separated from Infallable to produce a consistent large grained shotshell powder. The term "sweepings" was a joke in the industry.

Bullseye #2 was designed and produced from about 1904 to take advantage of the popularity of original Bullseye, then termed Bullseye #1; no more "sweepings." Sharpe says it was flaked to give a uniform granule size and good metering as an improvement over Bullseye #1. He also pointed out that #2 was bulkier than #1 and took a slightly heavier load for a given velocity.

Early on, Alliant advertised Power Pistol with the statement that, under the bulk designation of Bullseye 84, it had been used to load over a billion rounds of 9mm.


As best I can tell, there are two types of powder made in or imported to the USA now. The Ball process was developed by Dr Olsen for Olin/Winchester and is used to make powder at St Marks, Fla. and points abroad. The term Ball Powder is an Olin trademark, so Hodgdon and others have "spherical" powders. As said, there are a lot of ball powders rolled flat to adjust burn rate so they look like flakes, but it is the underwater manufacturing process that governs, not the final appearance.

The rest of the usual powders here are extruded. Flake powders are just extrusions cut very short.

There are still some European powders made as cut sheet. They are recognizable by the rectangular or diamond shaped granules. There might be some imported ammo loaded with cut sheet, but I don't know of any sold here for reloading since Alcan went out of business.

[Mike Irwin]

"Phil Sharpe, writing in 1937, said that the original 1898 Bullseye was made from screenings, the fine particles separated from Infallable to produce a consistent large grained shotshell powder. The term "sweepings" was a joke in the industry."

Yep, that's always been "the story."

But as I noted, a Laughlin & Rand historian who has researched and written about the company, takes a different view of that.

He says that the manufacturing process wouldn't have produced the number of "fines" that the company needed, and that examination of samples of powder from that era (including, apparently, a batch from 1898 held by Alliant), also don't support Sharpe's contention.

Sharpe was also writing nearly 50 years after Bullseye first saw use, and close to 40 years after cannister versions of Bullseye were released for commercial use by handloaders.

[WESHOOT2]

Power Pistol = Bullseye 84 (for thems that coulds ).

I note Power Pistol is popular with 9x19 Bullseye shooters.

[GJSchulze]

Finally the definitive answer to what kind of powder Power Pistol is. I just got an email from Alliant:

Gary, it is an extruded powder.

Make Every Shot Count!
Justin M.
CCI/Speer
2299 Snake River Ave
Lewiston, ID. 83501


So I guess it's like potato chips, or even closer, like Pringles.

[Brian Pfleuger]

They answered me today too...

Shockingly... same answer.