New to reloading guidence needed - Page 2

ryans01z28 · July 30, 2011, 12:28 AM

I'm have to look to see what bullets they were, I bought them at scheels when I bought the AR. The guys I was shooting with were impressed with them too and they been shooting and reloading for awhile now. I would ask them 4help but they live 250miles away from me and I only know them through another guy. And as for you farmerboy I don't think I need to hear your two cents by the sounds of it. Ill ask all the questions I want till I fell I have got the answers I'm looking for. Sometimes a guy doesn't comprehend everything when he reads, I'm not a big reader at all in fact I hate reading and would rather ask questions. I however have been reading my Lymans books But there's only so much I can take in in one day reading.

farmerboy · July 30, 2011, 12:33 AM

so is it really worth it to ask people who may give you good info or maybe not and have an accident in the process? Just concerned you dont get hurt or hurt others in your quest!

ryans01z28 · July 30, 2011, 12:51 AM

I just want to get some feedback from ppl that way when I do read all of the book I can relate to what they were talking about. I'm sure u were a pro and/or read EVERYTHING be for u asked a single question... more power to ya.

ryans01z28 · July 30, 2011, 12:57 AM

Ohh and btw why are u asking the forum what is an accurate load for yor lever action 30-30 when you could clearly look in your manual book and see the numbers?? Hummm. Guess u must have missed that page

Edward429451 · July 30, 2011, 10:54 AM

Quote:

is there a way to set the primer tool up so it seats it just past flush?

Yes there is. You use the small primer seater arm. If you use the large primer arm then the small primers will fit in the cup but wont seat past flush.

You really do need to read more. Asking questions is nice, but you have to be able to catch their mistakes, and you can't do this without reading.

dmazur · July 30, 2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

I'm not a big reader at all in fact I hate reading and would rather ask questions.

OK, here's something on YouTube. No reading required.

Primers in Semi-Auto Rifles

The first step in learning is realizing that some of your pre-conceived ideas are wrong...

Lost Sheep · July 30, 2011, 02:47 PM

ryans01z28, despite his snarkiness, farmerboy is trying to help.

I realize, despite your snarkiness, you are doing your best to learn.

Asking questions is a good thing. But remember, in life, believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for everything you find on the internet (with the possible exception of the actual web sites of the bullet and powder manufacturers). Hare-brained reloaders might have dangerous habits and even an honest typographical error could be deadly.

Verify for yourself everything you learn from casual sources. You do this by reading authoritative sources.

To answer two of your questions (piercing primers and seating primers):

CCI Primers have a reputation for being tough. I would worry LEAST about pierced primers with them. But that toughness comes at a price. Sometimes the firing pin strike is inadequate to ignite those tough primers. Federal primers (I hear) have a reputation for being easy to ignite, but, you can guess it, sometimes get themselves pierced by over-energetic firing pin strikes.

If you get failures to fire a lot with CCI, switch to a primer manufacturer who uses softer/thinner metal in their small rifle primers, or switch to a stronger mainspring. But first, make sure the firing pin channel does not have any dried-up grease or other stuff slowing it down. Sometimes happens with brand-new guns.

If you get pierced primers, make sure the firing pin nose is not the problem. The pin should be smooth and round with no burrs or roughness. If the firing pin is too long, that can pierce a primer, too, but a gunsmith might be required to tell. The store that sold the rifle to you might be asked to step up to verify this. You can make the measurement yourself if you have calipers and the dimensions. Final cure is to install a lighter mainspring.

There may be other cures, too, but I can't think of them. I would probably start a thread on my favorite internet forum, asking questions. (This is my version of snarkiness.)

Seating primers is VERY important. Boxer primers (the ones used primarily in the U.S.) are constructed three principal elements; the cup, the anvil and the priming compound. You will find drawings of primer cross-sections in many loading manuals in their early (the how-to) chapters.

As manufactured, the primers are fairly safe. You can even crush them (slowly) and the priming compound will not ignite. If you crush them fast, the probably will ignite. When you seat the primer, the anvil pushes into the cup as the primer is seated into the bottom of the primer pocket (in the back of the cartridge case). This stresses the priming compound slightly and makes it easier to ignite when the primer is struck by the firing pin. That's point #1.

Point #2. When a primer is not seated fully into the primer pocket, two things can happen. The firing pin strike may not ignite the primer because most of the energy of the strike is cushioned and absorbed by driving the primer deeper into the pocket. A second strike will usually ignite such a primer. The other thing that could happen is much worse. If the primer is high (standing proud of the rear face of the cartridge) it can jam up your firearm, not allowing the breech to fully close (or, in a revolver, not allowing the cylinder to rotate). This can be disastrous in the worst case. If the breech of your firearm is not fully closed the firing mechanism is not SUPPOSED to work. If it is only ALMOST not fully closed, some firearms (because of manufacturing and operating tolerances) can still fire. Firing with a not-fully-locked chamber can knock the bolt back, releasing burning gasses and brass schrapnel into your face.

Advice; make sure each primer is seated into the primer pocket such that the exposed primer face is below flush. Do this by inspecting each cartridge twice. Once, immediately after seating the primer and once when boxing up the finished ammo. Check them visually and by feeling with your finger. When you have a practiced eye and practiced finger (no, not THAT finger!) this will become second nature to you.

Good luck and thanks for asking our advice and for reading this far.

Lost Sheep

ryans01z28 · July 30, 2011, 02:58 PM

Hey thanks lost sheep, I'm lucky if I believe 1/4 of the info on the net and the gun smith I talked to says the same. Here's one for ya, I notice on these black rifles NOT just mine, that when a shell is chambered but NOT fired, and u take that shell back out and look at the primer it has a small dent in it from the pin. Has anyone noticed that before? I read somewhere that is caused because these guns have a "floating pin"

dmazur · July 30, 2011, 05:06 PM

Yup.

It's common. It's an indication of how close the firing pin is to setting off the primer during chambering, when everything is in spec.

Too soft a primer cup, primer seated too high, case not full-length resized and doesn't chamber completely are all factors that can lead to a slam-fire.

A few years ago, I read there were three types of reloading, in increasing difficulty -

1. Reloading for pistol
2. Reloading bottlenecked cartridges
3. Reloading bottlenecked cartridges for gas-operated semi-autos

There's no reason why someone can't do #3. Bear in mind, however, that starting out with #3 is going to be more of a challenge than working up from #1.

ryans01z28 · August 1, 2011, 01:43 PM

I am also wondering with this lee 1000 turret press I have, it automaticly punchs the primer out and puts a new one in but the primer pocket won't get cleaned out. Do or should I get another press dedicated for punching primers so I can clean the pockets or how do u go about doing this. My lee turret press is a 3hole design

oldreloader · August 1, 2011, 02:18 PM

ryan you will find MANY opinons on primer pocet cleaning. PERSONALLY I clean every primer pocket I reload. I feel it gives me more consistency in primer seating. Others won't agree. I use a universal deprimer then tumble the cases (rifle and handgun) then resize and reprime. I prefer the case clean before it goes into my resizing die. Once again, that's MY way, not necessarily the right way and DEFINATELY not the only way.
try this for your primers:
http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/
the two listing for 223 are both small rifle but the first is for milspec to help prevent slamfires. I shoot a Savage Edge Bolt gun so I use the regular smal rifle primer.
The load I'm currently loading for mine is 22.5 Grains of AA2230 with a 55 gr Hornady spirepoint.

ryans01z28 · August 1, 2011, 02:30 PM

Hey thanks ill have to order some primers from them looks like I can get cc#4w for the 5.56mm case that would insure me a good and propper fit. As foar as the cleaning goes I'm sure there lots of different ways to do it I thought maybe I'd get another cheap reloader just for primers to make sure everything is cleaned proper but maybe I can just use my turret press and be done with it

dmazur · August 1, 2011, 03:57 PM

AFAIK, you can't clean primer pockets on a reloading press, though some larger presses (like the Dillon 1050) may have the capability to swage primer pockets.

This tool is one (expensive) way to handle military cases with crimped primer pockets -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VQo...1&feature=fvwp

It's a Dillon Super Swage 600.

And this tool can be used with a battery drill to uniform primer pockets to the correct depth for primer seating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHgEqDD_iOU

It's a Sinclair Primer Pocket Uniformer.

I've found out that I only have to uniform primer pockets once, as the cases only last for 5 firings before head separation is an issue. I haven't had any trouble seating below flush with that number of firings. Yes, there is some residue in the pocket, but not much.

It is very common to handle bottleneck cartridge case prep as a "break out" operation after resizing/repriming, then resume operations on the press. Some even prefer using a hand priming tool to the sometimes troublesome auto primer feeds on the press.

This lets you do things like clean off excess lube (to prevent powder bridging at the case mouth), check for and correct case length by trimming, and check cartridge headspace with a gauge.

Then, once you have a bucket of "prepped brass", you can use the press for powder charge and bullet seating.

ryans01z28 · August 1, 2011, 04:24 PM

Ya see I was thinking of getting the lyman 110v case prep kit to clean the cases since it has all of the attachments with it

dmazur · August 1, 2011, 06:24 PM

Looks good. It will do everything for case prep except trimming, which requires another tool.

ryans01z28 · August 1, 2011, 06:27 PM

Yep I plan on getting a universal Lee trimmer for the cases.

What's the best was to get the primes out of the Lake City brass? Lee decapper or RCBS swage tool?

Sport45 · August 1, 2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryans01z28

What's the best was to get the primes out of the Lake City brass? Lee decapper or RCBS swage tool?

Two completely different functions. I haven't found a decapper that wouldn't press primers out of crimped primer pockets. The Lee Universal or whatever deprimer that's in your sizing die should work fine.

The RCBS swage tool is for removing the crimp AFTER the primer is removed. I have one, but prefer a Hornady reamer for removing the crimp.

ryans01z28 · August 1, 2011, 08:30 PM

i just ordered Lee Reloader Single Stage Press, RCBS Primer Pocket Swager Combo and 1000pc of LC brass from brassmanbrass.com

July 30, 2011, 02:47 PM	#32
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Keep calm ryans01z28, despite his snarkiness, farmerboy is trying to help. I realize, despite your snarkiness, you are doing your best to learn. Asking questions is a good thing. But remember, in life, believe only half of what you see and one quarter of what you hear. That goes double for everything you find on the internet (with the possible exception of the actual web sites of the bullet and powder manufacturers). Hare-brained reloaders might have dangerous habits and even an honest typographical error could be deadly. Verify for yourself everything you learn from casual sources. You do this by reading authoritative sources. To answer two of your questions (piercing primers and seating primers): CCI Primers have a reputation for being tough. I would worry LEAST about pierced primers with them. But that toughness comes at a price. Sometimes the firing pin strike is inadequate to ignite those tough primers. Federal primers (I hear) have a reputation for being easy to ignite, but, you can guess it, sometimes get themselves pierced by over-energetic firing pin strikes. If you get failures to fire a lot with CCI, switch to a primer manufacturer who uses softer/thinner metal in their small rifle primers, or switch to a stronger mainspring. But first, make sure the firing pin channel does not have any dried-up grease or other stuff slowing it down. Sometimes happens with brand-new guns. If you get pierced primers, make sure the firing pin nose is not the problem. The pin should be smooth and round with no burrs or roughness. If the firing pin is too long, that can pierce a primer, too, but a gunsmith might be required to tell. The store that sold the rifle to you might be asked to step up to verify this. You can make the measurement yourself if you have calipers and the dimensions. Final cure is to install a lighter mainspring. There may be other cures, too, but I can't think of them. I would probably start a thread on my favorite internet forum, asking questions. (This is my version of snarkiness.) Seating primers is VERY important. Boxer primers (the ones used primarily in the U.S.) are constructed three principal elements; the cup, the anvil and the priming compound. You will find drawings of primer cross-sections in many loading manuals in their early (the how-to) chapters. As manufactured, the primers are fairly safe. You can even crush them (slowly) and the priming compound will not ignite. If you crush them fast, the probably will ignite. When you seat the primer, the anvil pushes into the cup as the primer is seated into the bottom of the primer pocket (in the back of the cartridge case). This stresses the priming compound slightly and makes it easier to ignite when the primer is struck by the firing pin. That's point #1. Point #2. When a primer is not seated fully into the primer pocket, two things can happen. The firing pin strike may not ignite the primer because most of the energy of the strike is cushioned and absorbed by driving the primer deeper into the pocket. A second strike will usually ignite such a primer. The other thing that could happen is much worse. If the primer is high (standing proud of the rear face of the cartridge) it can jam up your firearm, not allowing the breech to fully close (or, in a revolver, not allowing the cylinder to rotate). This can be disastrous in the worst case. If the breech of your firearm is not fully closed the firing mechanism is not SUPPOSED to work. If it is only ALMOST not fully closed, some firearms (because of manufacturing and operating tolerances) can still fire. Firing with a not-fully-locked chamber can knock the bolt back, releasing burning gasses and brass schrapnel into your face. Advice; make sure each primer is seated into the primer pocket such that the exposed primer face is below flush. Do this by inspecting each cartridge twice. Once, immediately after seating the primer and once when boxing up the finished ammo. Check them visually and by feeling with your finger. When you have a practiced eye and practiced finger (no, not THAT finger!) this will become second nature to you. Good luck and thanks for asking our advice and for reading this far. Lost Sheep

July 30, 2011, 05:06 PM	#34
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Yup. It's common. It's an indication of how close the firing pin is to setting off the primer during chambering, when everything is in spec. Too soft a primer cup, primer seated too high, case not full-length resized and doesn't chamber completely are all factors that can lead to a slam-fire. A few years ago, I read there were three types of reloading, in increasing difficulty - 1. Reloading for pistol 2. Reloading bottlenecked cartridges 3. Reloading bottlenecked cartridges for gas-operated semi-autos There's no reason why someone can't do #3. Bear in mind, however, that starting out with #3 is going to be more of a challenge than working up from #1. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

August 1, 2011, 03:57 PM	#38
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	AFAIK, you can't clean primer pockets on a reloading press, though some larger presses (like the Dillon 1050) may have the capability to swage primer pockets. This tool is one (expensive) way to handle military cases with crimped primer pockets - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1VQo...1&feature=fvwp It's a Dillon Super Swage 600. And this tool can be used with a battery drill to uniform primer pockets to the correct depth for primer seating. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHgEqDD_iOU It's a Sinclair Primer Pocket Uniformer. I've found out that I only have to uniform primer pockets once, as the cases only last for 5 firings before head separation is an issue. I haven't had any trouble seating below flush with that number of firings. Yes, there is some residue in the pocket, but not much. It is very common to handle bottleneck cartridge case prep as a "break out" operation after resizing/repriming, then resume operations on the press. Some even prefer using a hand priming tool to the sometimes troublesome auto primer feeds on the press. This lets you do things like clean off excess lube (to prevent powder bridging at the case mouth), check for and correct case length by trimming, and check cartridge headspace with a gauge. Then, once you have a bucket of "prepped brass", you can use the press for powder charge and bullet seating. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

August 1, 2011, 06:24 PM	#40
dmazur Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2007 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,310	Looks good. It will do everything for case prep except trimming, which requires another tool. __________________ .30-06 Springfield: 100 yrs + and still going strong

August 1, 2011, 06:27 PM	#41
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	Yep I plan on getting a universal Lee trimmer for the cases. What's the best was to get the primes out of the Lake City brass? Lee decapper or RCBS swage tool? Last edited by ryans01z28; August 1, 2011 at 06:36 PM.

July 30, 2011, 12:28 AM	#26
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	I'm have to look to see what bullets they were, I bought them at scheels when I bought the AR. The guys I was shooting with were impressed with them too and they been shooting and reloading for awhile now. I would ask them 4help but they live 250miles away from me and I only know them through another guy. And as for you farmerboy I don't think I need to hear your two cents by the sounds of it. Ill ask all the questions I want till I fell I have got the answers I'm looking for. Sometimes a guy doesn't comprehend everything when he reads, I'm not a big reader at all in fact I hate reading and would rather ask questions. I however have been reading my Lymans books But there's only so much I can take in in one day reading.

July 30, 2011, 12:33 AM	#27
farmerboy Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Location: Central Texas Posts: 1,343	so is it really worth it to ask people who may give you good info or maybe not and have an accident in the process? Just concerned you dont get hurt or hurt others in your quest!

July 30, 2011, 12:51 AM	#28
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	I just want to get some feedback from ppl that way when I do read all of the book I can relate to what they were talking about. I'm sure u were a pro and/or read EVERYTHING be for u asked a single question... more power to ya.

July 30, 2011, 12:57 AM	#29
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	Ohh and btw why are u asking the forum what is an accurate load for yor lever action 30-30 when you could clearly look in your manual book and see the numbers?? Hummm. Guess u must have missed that page

July 30, 2011, 02:58 PM	#33
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	Hey thanks lost sheep, I'm lucky if I believe 1/4 of the info on the net and the gun smith I talked to says the same. Here's one for ya, I notice on these black rifles NOT just mine, that when a shell is chambered but NOT fired, and u take that shell back out and look at the primer it has a small dent in it from the pin. Has anyone noticed that before? I read somewhere that is caused because these guns have a "floating pin"

August 1, 2011, 01:43 PM	#35
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	I am also wondering with this lee 1000 turret press I have, it automaticly punchs the primer out and puts a new one in but the primer pocket won't get cleaned out. Do or should I get another press dedicated for punching primers so I can clean the pockets or how do u go about doing this. My lee turret press is a 3hole design

August 1, 2011, 02:18 PM	#36
oldreloader Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2009 Location: Magnolia, Arkansas Posts: 251	ryan you will find MANY opinons on primer pocet cleaning. PERSONALLY I clean every primer pocket I reload. I feel it gives me more consistency in primer seating. Others won't agree. I use a universal deprimer then tumble the cases (rifle and handgun) then resize and reprime. I prefer the case clean before it goes into my resizing die. Once again, that's MY way, not necessarily the right way and DEFINATELY not the only way. try this for your primers: http://www.powdervalleyinc.com/ the two listing for 223 are both small rifle but the first is for milspec to help prevent slamfires. I shoot a Savage Edge Bolt gun so I use the regular smal rifle primer. The load I'm currently loading for mine is 22.5 Grains of AA2230 with a 55 gr Hornady spirepoint.

August 1, 2011, 02:30 PM	#37
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	Hey thanks ill have to order some primers from them looks like I can get cc#4w for the 5.56mm case that would insure me a good and propper fit. As foar as the cleaning goes I'm sure there lots of different ways to do it I thought maybe I'd get another cheap reloader just for primers to make sure everything is cleaned proper but maybe I can just use my turret press and be done with it

August 1, 2011, 04:24 PM	#39
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	Ya see I was thinking of getting the lyman 110v case prep kit to clean the cases since it has all of the attachments with it

August 1, 2011, 08:30 PM	#43
ryans01z28 Member Join Date: July 28, 2011 Location: Churchs Ferry, ND Posts: 70	i just ordered Lee Reloader Single Stage Press, RCBS Primer Pocket Swager Combo and 1000pc of LC brass from brassmanbrass.com

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