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August 18, 2009, 05:55 PM | #201 |
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I wonder what some of you people would of said if I had carried my AR to an event that Bush was speaking at, even if I stayed within the legal limits of the law...
oh yeah, did I mention I am a real life socialist.
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August 18, 2009, 06:01 PM | #202 |
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I would say the same thing I have been saying all along, not a good idea. It intimidates people, makes them nervous and does not show the 2nd Amendment in a positive spotlight. Being a socialist has nothing to do with it.
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August 18, 2009, 06:28 PM | #203 |
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Thomas, I woulda never seen you at a Oscamma gathering but had I gone to a Bush gathering and seen you I woulda looked over the rifle and if it were a plain jane full original style stock I woulda complimented your tastes... If it were tacked out I wouldn'ta said nuttin to you for fear I was in the company of a mall ninja.
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August 18, 2009, 06:47 PM | #204 | ||
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Poseidon-28
Quote: by AZAK
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What he has, in your example, you could have if you held the office. These are not rights, these are "privileges"/perks that come with the office. And if you disagree with these "privileges"/perks than take that up with your local congressperson; however, these are in no way rights that differ from what "We the People" are all supposed to enjoy equally.
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August 18, 2009, 06:48 PM | #205 |
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It is impossible for the introduction of a weapon at a peaceful political event not to be seen as intimidating.
Moreover, it is impossible for people to believe that the person with the weapon is not trying to intimidate. Adding an AR15 to your political speech is not innocuous. It's a statement. Honestly, the American public is not going to believe that a given protester was clueless about the obvious meaning of his firearms display. They're going to assume he's clued-in enough to know, and he means it. Not only won't they buy the "harmless expression of 2nd Amendment rights" line, they also won't believe that he believes it. And when he gilds the lily by specifically saying "We will forcefully resist" or calls for "the blood of tyrants"? Please. As I said to a friend, "The rest of America is not as stupid as you are pretending to be." It is absolutely impossible that the majority of American people will not see this as a major step toward political violence. To believe otherwise is denial. When that one protester becomes an entire self-identified group, all with weapons, the press will call them an "armed mob." And they will be right. Gun-rights orgs should be treating this trend as a crisis -- a threat to their mission. They should be sending a strong message that this use of firearms is unacceptable in a peaceful democracy. If this trend gets out of hand and leads to a reverse of recent progress on gun rights, gun-rights organizations and activists will be squarely to blame. At a time when they should be speaking out against this with urgency, they're mostly watching from the sidelines or cheering it on. In retrospect, that is going to look very stupid. |
August 18, 2009, 07:01 PM | #206 |
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Travis:
Are you aware that SEIU members (pro-Obama camp) were going around to unarmed protesters and spitting on them and kicking them in the family jewels, and police did nothing about it? This was at the NH rally where the man was carrying a gun. One SEIU member tucked tail between his legs and ran the second he caught sight of William K.? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUxjahek0f8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sCqC6cdxgU I will be carrying openly when I go to events in the future, and I'm going to make it a point to deliberately attend as an armed protester. I will do this because thugs are attempting to control dialogue. |
August 18, 2009, 07:16 PM | #207 |
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I note that this individual was a citizen and RKBA advocate of "color". So much for the idea that advocates of the RKBA are all Ku-Klux.
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August 18, 2009, 07:29 PM | #208 | |
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August 18, 2009, 07:29 PM | #209 |
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Because in the real world, perception is everything, and while nobody on here is saying this man does not have the right to carry (and the fact he wasn't arrested proves it), his apperance doesn't improve the perception people have toards gun enthusiasts. Matthews shreaded him. This guy wasn't prepared for the questions he was asked, and he allowed Matthews to disrespect him.
the individual you mentioned in the above type about not being prepared....is this the same guy we have "all" been talking about.....and if so how do you figure he was shredded and ill prepared. i beg to differ...this individual was well versed in history and spoke eloquently when questions were posed to him. look...weather or not we agree or dis agree about his actions the fact still remains.....he was lawfully exercising his 2nd amendment rights.you dont have to like what he did or even agree with it....its his right....plane and simple. and until this right is taken fight to keep it.....don't lay down.stand behind this guy and more will eventually come out..... remember change starts with 1 person and spreads.
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August 18, 2009, 07:31 PM | #210 | |
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Well, thanks for being part of the problem! |
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August 18, 2009, 07:42 PM | #211 |
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I've laid out of this one becasue I have been thinking long and hard about the issue. Its a tough one.
For what my opinion is worth, I join in this statement from HKmp5SD 'It intimidates people, makes them nervous and does not show the 2nd Amendment in a positive spotlight" I also join in the opinion that parading around with firearms at a political event is contrary to what our country stands for: peaceful democracy WildimexhaustedAlaska ™ |
August 18, 2009, 07:47 PM | #212 | |
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Constantly repeating the same phrase, "You brought a gun to.." Got old, real fast, and, made it clear that Matthews was not there for a conversation, but, for a platform for his pontificating. Considering the difference in experience in front of a camera, the gentleman did VERY well. He actually had a bit of historical knowledge, and, it did not leave him at the time. -2 Matthews +2 H By the way, I have the exact reverse view of having guns around. Since I am often in a free fire zone, where violence occurs with guns, less then a block away, or did last year, seeing an officer with a Kimber is a great comfort. Last edited by Poseidon28; August 18, 2009 at 07:55 PM. |
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August 18, 2009, 08:44 PM | #213 |
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The Black Panthers were perfectly within their legal rights when they followed cop cars around and held rifles while standing ten feet away from the cops when they made arrests. They didn't interfere, they didn't break the law -- they just followed the cops around, carrying rifles.
That as well as other open-carry-as-political-statement behavior led to "The Panther Bill." The end of open carry in California, signed by Republican Governor Ronald Reagan. True story. Really. You can look it up. Here comes "The Tea Party Bill"... |
August 18, 2009, 09:33 PM | #214 | |||||
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Surely you are not saying that the mere presence of a firearm somehow "implies" violence? I believe that the exact opposite was shown, that a firearm can be present and no violence occurred at either event. Further, I believe it made that statement rather concisely. Quote:
It has incited at least 8+ pages of discussion on this fora alone, numerous media accounts, and likely an immeasurable amount of "water cooler" chatter, and thus far, save the posts that "smell of fear" in this thread, seems to have encouraged others to join the cause. Those who are incensed were likely already predisposed anti-2A to some degree, or are merely fearful of some sort of "backlash". Either way, a statement was clearly made. Quote:
Sorry to spoil your "spoiler" but, it was the outright verbal and published threats, coupled with a clearly violent agenda that accomplished that, not merely someone open-carrying, you have extremely over-simplified the matter, and it has no bearing on these events. Quote:
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; August 18, 2009 at 09:47 PM. |
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August 18, 2009, 09:50 PM | #215 |
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To reiterate what others in this thread have mentioned ... if a significant number of attendees at this event went armed, it wouldn't be a big deal or contrary to anything, but they didn't. We're not there as a nation right now, and that's no invasion on 2A, it's just the point where our society is today. There was no attack on this guy's rights going on, and there likely won't be on yours either if that's what you're (whoever you are) concerned about. Go try it out for yourself and see. There was, however, a reaction because it's out of the norm, just like there would be if Obama farted into the microphone. Illegal? Nope ... unusual exercise of one's rights? I suppose so.
I'm sure that many folks got an education on what is and isn't legal with regards to firearms through this whole thing, and that can only be a good thing (yes, even if the anti's found out you can legally OC there *gasp*). |
August 18, 2009, 09:58 PM | #216 | |
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It is, of course, a rhetorical question, but I cannot fathom from what abysmal place all this fear of a flourishing "Constitution-in-action" emanates.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; August 18, 2009 at 10:09 PM. |
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August 18, 2009, 11:03 PM | #217 | |
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It is human nature to fear that with which we are not familiar with. It is an ingrained survival trait. In my open carry post (referenced earlier), I thought I had made that point quite clear. To say you are amazed by this fear, means to me, you haven't really thought through the implications. Holding to an ideal is all well and good, but you must still see the pragmatic view and plan for it. Reality will intrude, like it or not. |
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August 18, 2009, 11:17 PM | #218 |
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Even among friends who know, love and trust me implicitly, there is a sort of shocked blank stare when a person sees a real firearm for the first time. It is a kind of awe, mixed with fear, uncertainty and a little fascination.
No widespread renaissance of the second amendment can truly happen until we get better at understanding and managing that fear. For one thing, it's not totally unreasonable fear. Firearms are deadly weapons. Combined that fact with unfamiliarity, and a person would have to be brain dead if not a little apprehensive. Nothing is more reassuring to folks than for them to see our competency with our handling of them, our absolute commitment to safety, and to let our humanity be seen. Anger in a gun owner is an anti-gunner's worst nightmare. |
August 18, 2009, 11:26 PM | #219 |
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Kudos...
I would like to thank you all for a informative discussion. I am at a point of my life where I am forming ideals and this sort of thing is great. I have my basic beliefs but not the background for where they come from. I am lacking the prose to explain (tired because the time and exhausted form thinking about this topic) but thanks again.
Beentown
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August 18, 2009, 11:32 PM | #220 | ||||
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; August 18, 2009 at 11:42 PM. |
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August 19, 2009, 12:50 AM | #221 |
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I'm a lifetime NRA member from WY. We have more firearms than people in this state and the firearm related crimes are slim to none. I understand the AZ gentleman with the AR-15 is exercising his 2nd amendment right. What other reason would he carry a rifle to a town hall meeting? I myself have a concealed carry permit. I also carry openly in a holster, usually when I'm in the backwoods. I would have no issue with carrying at a town hall meeting, but it would probably be concealed. I would have no reason to carry my AR-10 with a 20 round magazine to a town hall meeting, even though it's my right. My question is do you think man carrying the AR-15 to Obama's town hall meeting makes gun owners look rational or irrational? Does it promote the 2nd Amendment? It seems to me more like taunting and flaunting than being a humble, responsible, gun owner. I'm sure I don't know the whole story, and there is no right or wrong to these questions, I just thought I'd throw this out for discussion.
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August 19, 2009, 01:01 AM | #222 |
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I hear ya, but, well, the guy wasn't exactly reinforcing any gun-nut stereo-types. He is a clean cut, articulate, well dressed, and well mannered African American. If the intent was to make typical gun owners look bad, they shoulda hired Bubba, and sent him out with some extra chewing tobacco. If it's possible to look normal and non-threatening while packing an AR at a rally, this guy pulled it off!
But, many of us share your concerns. This event is a bit of a double edged sword for gun rights. This thread is full of quite a range of valid perspectives on it's significance. |
August 19, 2009, 01:07 AM | #223 | |
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He's not from Arizona, can't vote there, and doesn't seem to have an opinion about the matter being bandied about in that particular forum, which had nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. Health care, not guns, was the issue. He's just a guy who showed up out of the blue, and heavily armed. That would certainly make me worry. Sorry, but I'm going with Mr. Meyer on this one. There was absolutely no reason for him to do that other than getting his face on TV for the folks back home.
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August 19, 2009, 01:14 AM | #224 | ||
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I see no difference. The guy is not excersizing his right to keep and bear arms, he is using that right to make a statement. WildimsleepyAlaska TM |
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August 19, 2009, 01:17 AM | #225 | |
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