"Judge" legal question

RH · November 3, 2011, 06:41 PM

How does "The Judge" get around the laws against "short-barrelled" shotguns? I know it also takes .45 Colt, but all the marketing is towards its chamering a .410 shotgun round, so wouldn't it be classified as a shotgun?

deedude · November 3, 2011, 07:30 PM

They cut just enough rifling in the barrel to be classed as a handgun, but not so much that it causes the shot spread to make doughnut shaped patterns.

Colvin · November 3, 2011, 08:16 PM

When Taurus introduced their Raging Judge in 28 gauge at a recent SHOT show, I think this year, it was deemed a SBS by the ATF there. Shame.

As far as the normal Judge, the gentlemen above has it right.

rjrivero · November 3, 2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colvin

When Taurus introduced their Raging Judge in 28 gauge at a recent SHOT show, I think this year, it was deemed a SBS by the ATF there. Shame.

The 28ga bore is like .558" so the diameter is past the magic .50" mark which means the sun will fall out of the sky if mere mortals were to own one.

teeroux · November 4, 2011, 02:33 AM

^^
I think you hit the head on the nail or nail on the head just as confused as the regulation that governs such things.

I believe it goes something to the tune of anything over .50cal isn't kosher with the exception of shotguns which has its own regs. However .410 denotes caliber well under .50 so it gets a pass on pistol regs instead of shotgun regs.

MLeake · November 4, 2011, 02:51 AM

The rifling makes the Judge a pistol, and not a short barrelled shotgun; the .410 being less than .50 keeps it off the other destructive device list.

The 28 gauge being over .50, and the rifling/handgun combo preventing it from being considered a shotgun, I think the 28gauge was killed as a "destructive device."

At least, this is what I've heard.

Stressfire · November 4, 2011, 08:20 AM

Probably the same way a Mare's leg gets classified as a pistol and not an SBR.

EOD Guy · November 4, 2011, 09:43 AM

It is considered a short barrel shotgun in California as is any handgun that can chamber a .410 shotgun shell, rifled barrel or not.

ripnbst · November 4, 2011, 10:55 AM

Why wouldn't they just classify it as an AOW and only charge an additional $5 to register it?

Bartholomew Roberts · November 4, 2011, 10:58 AM

Quote:

I believe it goes something to the tune of anything over .50cal isn't kosher with the exception of shotguns which has its own regs.

Actually, ANYTHING with a bore of greater than .50" is considered a destructive device unless the Attorney General considers it "suitable for sporting purposes." Shotguns get a pass because historically they are used mostly for sport and also if the AG declared them unsporting, the political backlash would probably be impressive; but in theory, whether any particular shotgun remains on the market is totally up to the Attorney General.

This is one reason why ATF's recent proposal to spell out what makes a shotgun "suitable for sporting purposes" created so much controversy. Nobody is very excited about having this Attorney General implement that decision.

kozak6 · November 5, 2011, 02:01 AM

A shotgun is defined as being shoulder fired. Unrifled pistols are AOW's. A firearm with a bore diameter more than .50 cal may be a destructive device.

The Taurus Judge is none of these. It has a rifled bore smaller than .50 cal. It just so happens that it can also fire .410 shells, which doesn't matter (except in California if that other poster is correct).

The 28 gauge Judge is a little different. 28 gauge is about .55 cal, which puts it into DD territory.

There's two possibilities here. One possibility is that it funneled down to a .50 cal barrel. The problem is that is about double the constriction of a full choke and may have caused pressure problems or been unsafe.

The other possibility is that it was only intended to distract people at the SHOT Show from the S&W Governor, which is a Judge copy. This was accomplished magnificently, at any rate.

Quote:

Probably the same way a Mare's leg gets classified as a pistol and not an SBR.

Kind of. If you meant that they are building them that way at the factory instead of building them as full length firearms and cutting them down, you would be absolutely correct.

Quote:

Why wouldn't they just classify it as an AOW and only charge an additional $5 to register it?

It's made in Brazil, isn't it? That would mean they would need to import it with a rifled barrel, and then swap it for a smoothbore.

If they didn't do that, tooling up to build it in the US would be expensive.

But the main reason is that no one would buy it if they had to get fingerprinted, get CLEO signatures, wait months for background checks, etc. The NFA game isn't for everyone, and especially just for a silly .410.

November 3, 2011, 06:41 PM	#1
RH Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 1999 Posts: 532	"Judge" legal question How does "The Judge" get around the laws against "short-barrelled" shotguns? I know it also takes .45 Colt, but all the marketing is towards its chamering a .410 shotgun round, so wouldn't it be classified as a shotgun?

November 4, 2011, 08:20 AM	#7
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Probably the same way a Mare's leg gets classified as a pistol and not an SBR. __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

November 3, 2011, 07:30 PM	#2
deedude Junior Member Join Date: February 11, 2010 Posts: 6	They cut just enough rifling in the barrel to be classed as a handgun, but not so much that it causes the shot spread to make doughnut shaped patterns.

November 3, 2011, 08:16 PM	#3
Colvin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2011 Posts: 127	When Taurus introduced their Raging Judge in 28 gauge at a recent SHOT show, I think this year, it was deemed a SBS by the ATF there. Shame. As far as the normal Judge, the gentlemen above has it right.

November 4, 2011, 02:33 AM	#5
teeroux Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2006 Posts: 1,512	^^ I think you hit the head on the nail or nail on the head just as confused as the regulation that governs such things. I believe it goes something to the tune of anything over .50cal isn't kosher with the exception of shotguns which has its own regs. However .410 denotes caliber well under .50 so it gets a pass on pistol regs instead of shotgun regs.

November 4, 2011, 02:51 AM	#6
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	The rifling makes the Judge a pistol, and not a short barrelled shotgun; the .410 being less than .50 keeps it off the other destructive device list. The 28 gauge being over .50, and the rifling/handgun combo preventing it from being considered a shotgun, I think the 28gauge was killed as a "destructive device." At least, this is what I've heard.

November 4, 2011, 09:43 AM	#8
EOD Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 1999 Location: Concord, CA, USA Posts: 726	It is considered a short barrel shotgun in California as is any handgun that can chamber a .410 shotgun shell, rifled barrel or not.

November 4, 2011, 10:55 AM	#9
ripnbst Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2010 Location: Spring, TX Posts: 1,552	Why wouldn't they just classify it as an AOW and only charge an additional $5 to register it?