ID this Kentucky Rifle?

[TheKlawMan]

Are you out there, kyduckslayer? The reason I ask is I saw some old posts about your family rifle with the initials WMH stamped on top of the barrel. I saw the pics you posted and while mine looks more recent, it is also stamped WMH on the top flat of the barrel. Does the style of the stamping look the same? Mine is a family gun and when it was made the family lived about 60 miles from where your ancestor bought his.

Hawg Hagen and PaBuckslayer. If this seems familiar, you gave me some 411 on it in past pms. Thanks.

Link to pictures on flikr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/3909826...th/3599756048/

[TheKlawMan]

My gun



The link in the first post takes you to a lot of more pics.

[Mike Irwin]

Wow. That's a really interesting piece, and a hard one to read.

I think what you've got here in an earlier barrel in a reused newer stock, probably from the 1850s. I think the stock may also have been cut down from a longer configuration.

The barrel certainly looks as if it could have started out as a flintlock with a percussion thimble added sometime later, but the lock plate is definitely a percussion model. But, it clearly doesn't fit the lock plate.

The very end of the stock, where the putty is, looks as if it is reduced in diameter for a barrel band, but it could also be for a nose cap that's now gone.

As far as I know, Hawken used barrel wedges to secure the barrel and stock. There's no evidence of that with this gun.

The dimples on the end of the barrel are interesting. I'm not sure at all what they might mean.

[Hawg]

The stock has been cut down from a full stock. Half stocks for the most part had barrel keys and a hooked breech. You can see where one of the original barrel pins went under the rear sight. The trigger guard looks a lot like the ones on late Tryon trade rifles but that's not a Tryon. I think Jim is right, it's an older barrel in a newer stock. Possibly was a flint barrel with the percussion drum added and a lock that was handy.

[prof marvel]

This very interesting rifle, appears to be a good example of a flintlock converted to percussion in the mid 1800's, using available parts

It was originally a pretty nice flintlock, the brass buttplate, patchbox, set triggers, guard all speak to that.

the iron toeplate may be a replacement, at least the roundhead screw standing proud is!

The marks at the muzzle are examples of some minor embellishment in a better rifle, seldom if ever found on trade guns, and more elaborate work is found on "fine rifles"

observations:
- the obviously cut-down stock
- the fore-end cap appears to be a sheetmetal piece crudely fitted and filled out with - is that "white lead"?
- tang and breech plug assembly looks ... odd... as if there was a hook at the bottom, and the tang almost appears to be welded on ?
but the tang-to-stock fit looks "good"... but if the older tang had been smaller the newer larger tang could have been fitted. I am also puzzled by the "grime" that we see between the tang and the barrel - could it just be wear & tear?

- barrel rib was obviously made for a "round" barrel like a fowler, not octagonal, then soldered on.
- wiping stick thimbles are very basic formed sheet stock, soldered onto rib, and to be honest, a functional but poorly crafted job.
- The left side lock bolt is just not right for the fine inlay brass patchbox work - it should not be standing proud like that, it looks like a lock bolt the fellow happened to have when converting from flint to percussion.
-
as previously pointed out the lock is a poorly fitted replacement, and there is much wood missing. also note that the percussion lock has a square tail (that usually places the lock it in the "mid 19th century) , whilst the original stock was cut for a round tail; and the front of the lock drops in a manner that the stock does not match .

look at track of the wolf for some examples:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...artNum=AAK-102
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...artNum=AAK-088

on this example notice the round tail and the complete wood at the front of the lock:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...artNum=AAK-063

on this example notice the square tail and missing wood - the vendor identifies this as a Leman lock
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...artNum=AAH-621

just my 2 bits
yhs
prof marvel

[Hawg]

Most original flintlocks had pointed tails on the lock plates.

[TheKlawMan]

Thanks guys and again to Hawg. I have been preoccupied with a new shotgun and forgot that I had posted this. This was left to me by a Step Father and I remember him saying that it was converted from a flint and I think he said it had been his great, grand dad's. It looks like together you did a pretty detailed autopsy of the old girl. I have to take some time to follow and study those links.

I doubt this is a Hawken. The putty like stuff under the nose cap may be some hardware store putty I used when I got the gun and the cap came loose. I know nothing about these old guns, but that brass cap jsut doesn't fit the rest of the furniture.

The pipes holding the rod were obvioulsly, even to me, not original. Instead of being castings, they aslo look like they were made from some copper?

I wondered about the barrel rib and noticed that it was concave on top, but never associated that with a fowler. I can say one thing for certain. That barrel is heavy.

I never thought the flat end of the lock meant anything other than it wasn't original. Now I see where it is flat instead of round on the butt end.

I am going to have to look more closely at the breech and tang.

I guess it has been cobbled together from at least two guns and available parts. Thanks for looking at it.

[TheKlawMan]

Hawg Hagen:

Most original flintlocks had pointed tails on the lock plates.

I was looking at that. The stock is clearly relieved for a rounded tail. I wonder if the lock had a pointed tail that was cut off to make the stock fit.

I took a look at that site ("Blackpowder Times"). It looks to me like it is mainly for replica owners and shooters.

While I am still trying to trace the gun, I found a post where a guy, without any explanation or source, posted that the initials stamped on wkyduckslayer's gun, "WMH".

William Middleton Hargrove, Berea, KY, !857, %0 caliber, usually sell in the $100-$150 area.. Bushrod

Read more: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...#ixzz1evzwlPXP

[Hawg]

I don't think it was pointed. I think it was rounded but too long to fit the inlet.
Black Powder Times is my forum. The link is in my signature, it wasn't meant to be a reference. If you just want to talk black powder sometime just drop in and set a spell. We also talk about bp cartridge and even modern stuff but no inlines.

[TheKlawMan]

Thanks Hawg.