30-30 Winchester Load Help

[gungho]

So I picked up a reloading die set for my 30-30 Winchester. My dad already has Hodgon H4895 for reloading his .308 and 30-06.

I have a Sierra Manual for reloading and was looking through there for the load to start with.

They don't have H4895 listed for 30-30 Winchester in the 150 gr. SPBT Hornady bullet I'll be using.

Does anyone know of a load for that bullet using the H4895?

[Pongo]

You can find data here http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

[Unclenick]

Also note that powder is a little slow for best efficiency in .30-30. IMR3031 is usually better in that case.

[old_folks]

gungho.....what bullet are you planning on using in your 30-30 reloads? 150 gr
SPBT??? Is this a 30-30 bullet? I'm not familiar with it. If it is not a bullet designed specifically for the 30-30, you may not get the results you are looking for.

Just a thought.

[GeauxTide]

Unless you're using a single shot or an old 788 or Savage bolt, you should think round nose or flat point.

[pappyo]

IMR3031 is the powder to use. Works good. Don't forget flat top bullets if your going to load the tube as opposed to single shot.

[Win_94]

I just started using Varget in mine with great results.
Win94 Varget Zeros
The quicker burning powders, (that you and others have suggested,) will result in great velocity variations like I was having when using H322, (suggested from the internet.)
30 30 Velocity Issue
I've never had velocity issues when using the slower burning powders.
550 Yard, 30-30 Winchester 94, Hornady 160gr FTX
Using VIHT N 135 there, but am using Varget now for the temperature insensitivity.

150 gr. SPBT

I also use bullets not intended for use in tube magazines, the 168gr A-max, 150gr SST, among others. If you are loading those bullets for a lever action with a tube magazine; make sure you don't load them in the tube magazine; load them one at a time directly into the chamber to avoid cartridges discharging in the magazine.

This FTX is more expensive but has a BC close to the SPBT and you can load your magazine tube with them.

[Unclenick]

Typically, slower powders actually exhibit more velocity spread than fast powders where the fill densities match. That's because the quicker powder burns more completely and efficiently. Velocity spread problems with faster powders are usually due to lower fill density, not burn rate. A given peak pressure is reached with a lighter charge of a faster powder, and that usually doesn't fill the case as well.

By Lee's VMD chart, H322 is not only faster than Varget, it is also more dense. That makes it a poor choice from the standpoint of velocity variation. IMR 3031, on the other hand has less bulk density than either, making it a much better choice from that particular standpoint. Because of its higher bulk, you will find it fills the .30-30 case much better filled by 3031 than H322, despite the charge being lighter than a Varget charge.

Powder         VMD         Bulk Density
H322       0.0725 cc/gr    0.894 gm/cc
Varget     0.0731 cc/gr    0.886 gm/cc
IMR 3031   0.0762 cc/gr    0.850 gm/cc

Bottom line, you can't extrapolate from H322 experience to 3031 performance in the .30-30.

As an aside, note that other factors that affect velocity variation. Many people don't seat primers hard enough to set the bridge correctly (see this article). In the Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, one author describes seating primers really hard, and says that when doing so he is able to get rifle loads down to 10 fps ES. Another factor is uniform start pressure, and that is affected by crimp and bullet pull consistency. For moderate ranges, particularly when feeding from a magazine, many find the higher start pressure that results from using the Lee Factory Crimp die improves velocity variation for that reason.

All that said, .30-30 isn't used by most folks for long range hunting, and muzzle velocity variation doesn't typically start having much effect on POI until you get out a ways. For the popular 170 grain Sierra flat point, with a 200 yard zero, 100 fps velocity variation from full power loads will amount to around 2" vertical POI change at 300 yards using a rigid test barrel. In an actual light rifle, the longer barrel time of the slower load lets the gun recoil a little higher, so you may actually see even less change.

Powder temperature insensitivity matters some, but it takes some time for heat in the chamber to change powder temperature. Unless you leave a case cooking in a hot chamber, the primer gets hot much faster and is more likely to prove responsible for apparent temperature sensitivity than the powder. The powder temperature sensitivity has significance in cold barrels fired at a wide range of ambient temperatures. The primer factor is one reason benchrest shooters tend to find the mildest primers igniting a well-filled case is best. Denton Bramwell has an article on temperature tests you may find interesting, here.

[Win_94]

and that usually doesn't fill the case as well.

Using the Hornady 110gr FMJs I was using the same volume as VIHT N 135 and H322. VIHT N 135 was 200fps faster, (2650fps,) with an extreme spread of around 22. H322's extreme spread was 260fps.

I am convinced people deal with that type of inaccuracy with a lever action rifle because they are told to expect it. Your post bears-that-out over and over.

Because of its higher bulk, you will find it fills the .30-30 case much better filled by 3031 than H322,

This case is not near filled and the bullet seated shallow... (sorry for the huge pic.)

...yet the height difference is less than an inch.
(that was the first time I developed a load for the Win94... No one told me it was supposed to be inaccurate.).
...continuing that thought...

despite the charge being lighter than a Varget charge.

You're confusing the two powders' data. I'll provide actual range results; range data with loads using IMR 4064, VIHT N 135 and Varget using an assortment of bullet weights as my argument. Everyone should feel free to provide the 3031 range data.

Bottom line, you can't extrapolate from H322 experience to 3031 performance in the .30-30.

I am extrapolating my Varget, IMR 4064, VIHT N 135, experience to 3031's performance in the .30-30.

uniform start pressure, and that is affected by crimp and bullet pull consistency

I anneal every 7 shots, today's case had been shot 22 times, it was due for annealing but wasn't; I don't crimp the A-max.That is as loose as it is going to get. When I do crimp, I'll use the the Lee Factory Crimp die.

.30-30 isn't used by most folks for long range

Not a reason to accept inaccuracy.

velocity variation doesn't typically start having much effect

Settling for any "effect" is just another nail in accuracy's coffin. Add all those 'not that much effects' and there becomes "much effect!"

the popular 170 grain Sierra flat point,

...at best a pistol bullet; which regulates it to short range. I and the original thread is talking about using it as a rifle; "the 150 gr. SPBT Hornady bullet" at least use the Hornady FTX.

100 fps velocity variation

Another excuse to not strive for, or expect accuracy. They just keep adding-up.

with a 200 yard zero

Not an accurate representation of actual drop.

In an actual light rifle, the longer barrel time of the slower load lets the gun recoil a little higher, so you may actually see even less change.

I'll be needing evidence to support the [recoil affecting POI] assertion... other than flinch.

Powder temperature insensitivity matters some, but it takes some time for heat in the chamber to change powder temperature.

That isn't the use of temperature insensitive powder.
I am using Varget so I can load develop at 50ºF, then be able to shoot at 100ºF-0ºF with minimal velocity deviation.

The primer factor is one reason benchrest shooters

But it's "only a 30-30," right?
That said; I've experienced no temperature issues with the chamber...
Other than dramatic cooling in winter... causing a drop in POI, (in a spring/fall/summer developed load,) of up to 2' due to velocity deviation. I would rather openly carry ammo in any temperature confident my POI will remain constant.

Velocity and barrel harmonics are linked. Accuracy suffers with fluctuating velocities. I'll settle for no more than 25fps extreme spread.

Denton Bramwell has an article on temperature tests you may find interesting, here.

That PDF file is the reason I had to write this post thrice. :/

[Rifletom]

150gr RN or FN, 36.0gr RL#15.
170gr RN or FN, 34.0gr RL#15.
These loads work well in my Mod. 94 w/20" barrel. Hopes this helps.

[Sarge]

H4895 is the only powder I use for standard bottleneck rifle cartridges and it has provided excellent to exceptional accuracy in a number of 94 Winchesters I've used it in. 34.0 has become my standard load with the 150 grain Sierra flat-point, which is the only bullet I load in this caliber.




Suggest you start at least a half-grain lower and work up; don't use pointed bullets in tubular magazines.

[Win_94]

The quicker burning powders, (that you and others have suggested,) will result in great velocity variations

As per Sarge's post, I stand corrected concerning H4895.

[gungho]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I realized a well that the bullets I was planning on using while .308 DIA are not for the 30-30, since it is a 94AE Winchester.

So I ordered 170 GR. Flat Nose Bullets from Sierra. I was going to go with 150 GR. but they were out of stock.

I looked at the load data on Hodgdon's website and it lists for the H4895 a 170 GR. SIE FP.

I'm assuming SIE stands for Sierra and FP stands for flat point. Is flat point and flat nose the same?