What if Terrorist attack malls? - Page 2

Glenn E. Meyer · October 16, 2005, 03:56 PM

Ever see John Holschen's of Insights analysis or presentation on Al-Qaeda and terrorist tactics? It's been reprinted and used by OUR military.

You are silly if you underestimate your enemy and you are silly if you disregard risk analysis when deciding on an action.

The 9/11 hijackers were not incompetent and they certainly planned. They took rehearshal flights. They planned how to deal with resistance. While one can conceive of an attack on a mall by clowns, who we American gunslingers can pick off one at a time with a J frame and our superior marksmanship, might a real gun oriented attack by carried out by trained personnel who know how to act as small units and practiced against the random CHL person in ambush?

Of course, not. My point is to be educated and trained. Understand the risks - but it is more fun to posture.

Boss Spearman · October 16, 2005, 08:43 PM

I honestly feel we in the US have more to fear from another natural disaster like Katrina or an earthquake, or a medical disaster like the different strains of flu being discussed, than from terrorists attacks.

smince · October 17, 2005, 06:59 PM

Quote:

The 9/11 hijackers were not incompetent and they certainly planned. They took rehearshal flights.

Someone did plan the whole 9/11 act, and the terrorists carried it out. But there were several times it could have been stopped if we hadn't gotten the "it can't happen here to me" attitude. I would say that the planners were 1000's of miles away. Funny how the leaders don't strap on a belt of explosives and lead the way, isn't it?

Quote:

They planned how to deal with resistance.

The plan was for an area where they knew there was very little chance for any resistance. They counted on the "sheeple" attitude that most Americans have.

I'm not underestimating their intelligence. But I've also seen the "training video's" with lot's of "spray and praise Allah". I just don't believe they are competent with firearms.

Despite what you hear on the news, our boys are taking them out by a respectful margin.

CarlosDJackal · October 19, 2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

...opening fire with the basic guns like AK-47? They would be much more effective then a bomb...

I disagree with this statement. If I was a terrorist intent on killing as many infidels that I can, I would use some sort of IED in as many crowded locations that I could. If I could do some government-sanctioned "red cell" exercise so that we could all see just how easy this would be for someone with the right motivation, knowledge, and imagination (Any government agency who wants me to do this in their jurisdiction can contact me offline - I'd be willing to do it for free).

First of all, a couple of men running into a mall with AK-47s are easier to spot and engage by anyone who also happen to have a gun. This is not so with IEDs. The next time you go to a mall, just take note of the many possible locations someone can put one of these devices whether on time delay or command detonation.

Second of all, running around with an AK-47 is basically a suicide mission. You might as well strap an HFEID on your chest and blow yourself up if you are going to do that. Whereas, if I were to plant these things and be long gone before they go off, I can do this as many times in as many different locations as I want.

Third of all, if you wanted to victimize as many people with rifle fire, do what thos DC criminal snipers did. It still amazes me that no terrorist organization has tried to copy what they did. They pretty much held MD, DC, & VA in panic for all those weeks and teh whole nation captivated. What more can a jihadist want? JM2CW.

CarlosDJackal · October 19, 2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

I honestly feel we in the US have more to fear from another natural disaster like Katrina or an earthquake, or a medical disaster like the different strains of flu being discussed, than from terrorists attacks.

While true, it does not mean taht we should discount the possibility and we must plan for it (I know I am). FWIW, this seemed to be the prevalent attitude up until 9/11/2001. JM2CW.

losangeles · October 19, 2005, 03:45 PM

[THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA! ]

Wow, that was a real kicker, smince. That's a few thousand miles away from the Rodney King incident!

itgoesboom · October 19, 2005, 04:39 PM

The following is just my humble opinion:

1. Depending on the type of operation, terrorists may or may not be trained for combat. Bombers who have explosives strapped to them will likely not have effective training. But those who require training to ensure a completed mission will likely have solid training and very thorough planning.

Example is ofcourse the 9/11 hijackers who not only did practice runs on the very aircraft they would hijack, but also carried and used pepper spray to deter people from fighting back, and were trained in martial arts in case people did fight back.

2. As we have seen in the middle east, the favored weapon of the terrorist isn't an AK-47, it is an explosive device. Why shoot 10 people when you can blow up 45?

3. If a terrorist group does do a shooting at a mall in the USA, you can be sure that there are also explosives involved. Either set on timers for the rescue personel, or at the exits to catch the evacuating shoppers.

4. Going after multiple trained adversaries(see #1) who are armed with long arms while you are armed only with a pistol and maybe a reload or two is suicide.

5. If you do fight back and take one of the terrorists weapons, you will be easily mistaken as a terrorist as well. Responding officers or other CHL holders might very well take you out.

6. The advice to get down a narrow hallway is a good one. You have concealment (if there is a corner), and the element of suprise is back on your side if they come down the hallway. Also, often times these little hallways that lead to bathrooms also lead to small exits.

7. Avoid the main major exits. If the terrorists want to inflict more casualties, they could easily place explosives there.

I.G.B.

marshall2 · October 19, 2005, 04:54 PM

The mall scenario is bound to happen someday. What then? All the malls will install metal detectors, and people will be searched as they enter the malls. There goes ccw down the tubes, I'm afraid. I foresee the curtailment of many civil liberties in the future.

smince · October 19, 2005, 05:25 PM

Quote:

All the malls will install metal detectors, and people will be searched as they enter the malls.

I'm not sure about this. Have you seen all the metal keys and other assorted items women carry in their purses? Not to mention jewelry. And big belt buckles on men. I don't think they will risk their customer base. Metal Detectors probably won't work at malls.

I went to an event at a very large auditorium recently. The tickets said all would be searched, but I didn't see anyone being searched.

My wife was afraid that the "shoplifting sensors" at the doors of the Wal-mart would detect her CCW until I explained it to her.

Quote:

[THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA! ]

Wow, that was a real kicker, smince. That's a few thousand miles away from the Rodney King incident!

Some will use any excuse to go on a rampage. It wasn't just in Huntsville.

Sulaco2 · October 19, 2005, 05:39 PM

Um, don't think the terr's as the Afticans called them are "going down hill" one site I read and was on the news recently showed 3000 bomb attacks around the world in the last few years.

Texas Pete · October 21, 2005, 02:56 PM

don't worry the mall ninjas will climb up the walls and do a ninjujitstu flip kick and take them all out.

sorry I had to.

Musketeer · October 21, 2005, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Tom Clancy handled this situation in his novel "The Teeth of the Tiger".

That was the only good part of that entire god forsakken novel... oh the depths to which Mr. Clancy has fallen....

I have already told my wife what to do in this event. Every mall I know of that we go to has a service hallway leading to the outside connected to the back of each store. That is where we are going ASAP. 95% of the "herd will head either towards the action/noise (stupid but true as behavioural scientists ahve noticed studying terrorist attacks in Isreal) or away. In either case that means a flood of people going both directions in a hallway packed with panicked people. Not the place to be. The service halls though lead out to loading bays and the like. The majority of people in those will be employees who have the sense to run, although history has shown many people will stand around trying to figure out what is going on. No matter what we want to be where the FEWEST people (targets) are. As soon as we are in the hallway I will then lead the way out. My logic is any terrorist in the main mallways will be far more focused on killing the masses than to bother with the 5% running down a service way so once we are on the way our rear is not my main concern. I would want to confirm any loading docks/exits are clear though before sending the wife and child through to safety.

10-96 · October 21, 2005, 03:32 PM

OK, ya'll have pretty well got the mall talked about, whatsay about a pro-football, or any other very large and packed sports stadium? Movie theater? Hospital? Cruise ship? University, college, elementary schools? Be observant- yes, but out of curiosity- how many have taken a neighbor or friend to the range and encouraged CCW classes? How many have started urging folks to push and/or endorse your ideas to your elected officials for change? How many keep up to date with actual security threat info reports? Just curious. How many find it easy to sit back and throw stones and be armchair strategists and know all the answers but don't even lift a finger to help this country out? Just curious.

smince · October 21, 2005, 03:38 PM

10-96: Of the places you mention, the theater is the only one (depending on jurisdiction) where it may be legal to CCW. Schools/Universities, hospitals, cruise ships, and sporting events are or may be restricted areas. Not everywhere, but many areas. One may not be able to fight back in these areas even if an opportunity presented itself.

Lucky 7 · October 24, 2005, 09:20 PM

Um stop reading Tom Clancy! lol
Seriously it will be quick and violent and so much blood.
Its proven in combat that those who are unproven and/or new to the violence combat brings, wuss out (seen it w/ my "Team Leader"). Plan and simple. Unless you were seasoned in Nam or Iraq or any conflict inbtwn or on the streets (as an officer), youll panic, youll shake, youll freeze up. And even those seasoned will do all of the above a lil bit.
To take action in combat you need to cross the barrier into violence..and it's a very tall, jagged barrier to cross.
Semper Fi!
-L7

AndrewTB · October 25, 2005, 01:40 AM

I think terrorist suited similar to the men in the North Hollywood shootout would do much more damage then bombs. Especially if its a large group of men who can cover exits etc...

smince · October 25, 2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

I think terrorist suited similar to the men in the North Hollywood shootout would do much more damage then bombs.

These "terrorists" wouldn't have done nearly as much damage if the officers involved had rifles earlier in the confrontation.

cmreinke · November 20, 2005, 08:02 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg-

Too bad there were no mall ninjas on hand when the real thing happened (there was only 1 "terrorist", fortunately).

...Or better yet, any CCL holders. Fortunately no one died, and the bad guy was caught. But think that this highlights the most likely situation that any of us will face (if any).

-Charles

AndrewTB · November 20, 2005, 10:09 PM

LOL I just came here to post about the shooting. I was like [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] where the ninjas at!

Sulaco2 · November 21, 2005, 01:16 AM

Um appears there was at least one CCW holder there, but was more concerned about getting his family out intact. Can't say as I blame him at all.

Bobarino · November 21, 2005, 01:29 AM

light hearted banter for y'all, serious business for me. my girlfriend works there. she is very, uh, NON proactove when it comes to sef defense. not sure what to do. hope i guess.

Bobby

Glenn E. Meyer · November 21, 2005, 10:45 AM

I read a report that a patron tackled the guy and was then shot 4 times until the gun jammed.

The responding officers were regular patrol officers with active shooter training who formed up and went after the guy.

cmreinke · November 21, 2005, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Um appears there was at least one CCW holder there, but was more concerned about getting his family out intact. Can't say as I blame him at all.

Really?! Where did you hear/read that? I agree though: the first priority of anyone with spouse or kids in a situation like that would definitely be to get their family out of harm's way, rather than try to be a John McClane-like hero.

-Charles

Glenn E. Meyer · November 21, 2005, 03:24 PM

John McClane in Die Hard I and II was always trying to save his wife. She was in Naktomi tower in I and on a plane in II.

Three was crappy so I never watched the whole thing on the tube.

NB4ZOT · November 21, 2005, 03:46 PM

I'd first locate my target (terrorist BG). I'd then unholster my 686P 6" with super hot handloads. Then I'd do a shoulder barrel roll on the floor and take refuge behind Cinnabon kiosk. I'd take the first guy out with a head shot. Then I'd shimmy downj the giant Xmas tree in the skating rink, make my way behind the SunGlass Hut stand and take out the next two perps with chest shot to one and a leg shot to the other. I'd then take their weapons (AKs presumably). I'd interogate the one I injured to get the postions of any IEDs. I would then alert bomb squad to locations.

At that time I would set aside an hour for TV interviews and taking #s from hot babes who think I rule.

Pretty straight forward.

October 16, 2005, 03:56 PM	#26
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Ever see John Holschen's of Insights analysis or presentation on Al-Qaeda and terrorist tactics? It's been reprinted and used by OUR military. You are silly if you underestimate your enemy and you are silly if you disregard risk analysis when deciding on an action. The 9/11 hijackers were not incompetent and they certainly planned. They took rehearshal flights. They planned how to deal with resistance. While one can conceive of an attack on a mall by clowns, who we American gunslingers can pick off one at a time with a J frame and our superior marksmanship, might a real gun oriented attack by carried out by trained personnel who know how to act as small units and practiced against the random CHL person in ambush? Of course, not. My point is to be educated and trained. Understand the risks - but it is more fun to posture. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 19, 2005, 04:54 PM	#33
marshall2 Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2004 Location: Signal Mountain, TN Posts: 197	A problem that will arise The mall scenario is bound to happen someday. What then? All the malls will install metal detectors, and people will be searched as they enter the malls. There goes ccw down the tubes, I'm afraid. I foresee the curtailment of many civil liberties in the future.

October 21, 2005, 03:32 PM	#38
10-96 Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Location: Tx Panhandle Territory Posts: 4,159	OK, ya'll have pretty well got the mall talked about, whatsay about a pro-football, or any other very large and packed sports stadium? Movie theater? Hospital? Cruise ship? University, college, elementary schools? Be observant- yes, but out of curiosity- how many have taken a neighbor or friend to the range and encouraged CCW classes? How many have started urging folks to push and/or endorse your ideas to your elected officials for change? How many keep up to date with actual security threat info reports? Just curious. How many find it easy to sit back and throw stones and be armchair strategists and know all the answers but don't even lift a finger to help this country out? Just curious. __________________ Rednecks... Keeping the woods critter-free since March 2, 1836. (TX Independence Day) I suspect a thing or two... because I've seen a thing or two.

October 24, 2005, 09:20 PM	#40
Lucky 7 Senior Member Join Date: April 20, 2002 Posts: 454	Um stop reading Tom Clancy! lol Seriously it will be quick and violent and so much blood. Its proven in combat that those who are unproven and/or new to the violence combat brings, wuss out (seen it w/ my "Team Leader"). Plan and simple. Unless you were seasoned in Nam or Iraq or any conflict inbtwn or on the streets (as an officer), youll panic, youll shake, youll freeze up. And even those seasoned will do all of the above a lil bit. To take action in combat you need to cross the barrier into violence..and it's a very tall, jagged barrier to cross. Semper Fi! -L7 __________________ Signature Space For Rent. SOLD! "Just relax. Breath normally. All you should see is the front sight post. Ignore the the target. Wait for the pause between breaths and when you feel good about it...ease the trigger back." -PMI Sgt. Hopkins, USMC

November 20, 2005, 08:02 PM	#43
cmreinke Member Join Date: October 20, 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 77	http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051121/...tkBHNlYwM3MTg- Too bad there were no mall ninjas on hand when the real thing happened (there was only 1 "terrorist", fortunately). ...Or better yet, any CCL holders. Fortunately no one died, and the bad guy was caught. But think that this highlights the most likely situation that any of us will face (if any). -Charles __________________ I reject your reality, and substitute my own. -Adam Savage of Discovery Channel's MythBusters Last edited by cmreinke; November 20, 2005 at 10:23 PM.

October 16, 2005, 08:43 PM	#27
Boss Spearman Registration in progress Join Date: March 23, 2005 Posts: 319	I honestly feel we in the US have more to fear from another natural disaster like Katrina or an earthquake, or a medical disaster like the different strains of flu being discussed, than from terrorists attacks.

October 19, 2005, 03:45 PM	#31
losangeles Member Join Date: October 19, 2005 Posts: 83	[THE MALL WASN'T IN CALIFORNIA, but was in HUNTSVILLE, ALABAMA! ] Wow, that was a real kicker, smince. That's a few thousand miles away from the Rodney King incident!

October 19, 2005, 04:39 PM	#32
itgoesboom Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2002 Posts: 223	The following is just my humble opinion: 1. Depending on the type of operation, terrorists may or may not be trained for combat. Bombers who have explosives strapped to them will likely not have effective training. But those who require training to ensure a completed mission will likely have solid training and very thorough planning. Example is ofcourse the 9/11 hijackers who not only did practice runs on the very aircraft they would hijack, but also carried and used pepper spray to deter people from fighting back, and were trained in martial arts in case people did fight back. 2. As we have seen in the middle east, the favored weapon of the terrorist isn't an AK-47, it is an explosive device. Why shoot 10 people when you can blow up 45? 3. If a terrorist group does do a shooting at a mall in the USA, you can be sure that there are also explosives involved. Either set on timers for the rescue personel, or at the exits to catch the evacuating shoppers. 4. Going after multiple trained adversaries(see #1) who are armed with long arms while you are armed only with a pistol and maybe a reload or two is suicide. 5. If you do fight back and take one of the terrorists weapons, you will be easily mistaken as a terrorist as well. Responding officers or other CHL holders might very well take you out. 6. The advice to get down a narrow hallway is a good one. You have concealment (if there is a corner), and the element of suprise is back on your side if they come down the hallway. Also, often times these little hallways that lead to bathrooms also lead to small exits. 7. Avoid the main major exits. If the terrorists want to inflict more casualties, they could easily place explosives there. I.G.B.

October 19, 2005, 05:39 PM	#35
Sulaco2 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,247	Um, don't think the terr's as the Afticans called them are "going down hill" one site I read and was on the news recently showed 3000 bomb attacks around the world in the last few years.

October 21, 2005, 02:56 PM	#36
Texas Pete Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Posts: 44	don't worry the mall ninjas will climb up the walls and do a ninjujitstu flip kick and take them all out. sorry I had to.

October 21, 2005, 03:38 PM	#39
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	10-96: Of the places you mention, the theater is the only one (depending on jurisdiction) where it may be legal to CCW. Schools/Universities, hospitals, cruise ships, and sporting events are or may be restricted areas. Not everywhere, but many areas. One may not be able to fight back in these areas even if an opportunity presented itself.

October 25, 2005, 01:40 AM	#41
AndrewTB Junior member Join Date: January 11, 2005 Posts: 677	I think terrorist suited similar to the men in the North Hollywood shootout would do much more damage then bombs. Especially if its a large group of men who can cover exits etc...

November 20, 2005, 10:09 PM	#44
AndrewTB Junior member Join Date: January 11, 2005 Posts: 677	LOL I just came here to post about the shooting. I was like [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] where the ninjas at!

November 21, 2005, 01:16 AM	#45
Sulaco2 Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 1,247	Um appears there was at least one CCW holder there, but was more concerned about getting his family out intact. Can't say as I blame him at all.

November 21, 2005, 01:29 AM	#46
Bobarino Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: western WA. Posts: 182	light hearted banter for y'all, serious business for me. my girlfriend works there. she is very, uh, NON proactove when it comes to sef defense. not sure what to do. hope i guess. Bobby

November 21, 2005, 10:45 AM	#47
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I read a report that a patron tackled the guy and was then shot 4 times until the gun jammed. The responding officers were regular patrol officers with active shooter training who formed up and went after the guy. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 21, 2005, 03:24 PM	#49
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	John McClane in Die Hard I and II was always trying to save his wife. She was in Naktomi tower in I and on a plane in II. Three was crappy so I never watched the whole thing on the tube. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

November 21, 2005, 03:46 PM	#50
NB4ZOT Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 2005 Location: Houston Posts: 103	I've already gone over it in my head many times I'd first locate my target (terrorist BG). I'd then unholster my 686P 6" with super hot handloads. Then I'd do a shoulder barrel roll on the floor and take refuge behind Cinnabon kiosk. I'd take the first guy out with a head shot. Then I'd shimmy downj the giant Xmas tree in the skating rink, make my way behind the SunGlass Hut stand and take out the next two perps with chest shot to one and a leg shot to the other. I'd then take their weapons (AKs presumably). I'd interogate the one I injured to get the postions of any IEDs. I would then alert bomb squad to locations. At that time I would set aside an hour for TV interviews and taking #s from hot babes who think I rule. Pretty straight forward.