Why does Remington mock me with their brass?

[Doodlebugger45]

Wow. That is some seriously deformed brass. I would be upset as well. I don't buy a whole lot of new factory brass these days. But I do typically try to keep at least one bag of new brass on hand for each rifle just in case I want to start a new cycle to track something in particular. I guess all I can say is that I must be very lucky. Most of my new rifle brass has been Winchester for the simple reason that the local stores tend to stock it the most. I have not had any of the issues described at all. Maybe one out of 20 will have a slight dent at the mouth, but easily fixed by the expander button. I have one bag of Remington brass that I pulled 20 pieces of brass for my 7 MM Mag out of the other day. It was close to perfect.

I am wondering if there is some consistent trend here, whether it is caliber or date or something else.

[FrankenMauser]

Hornady issued a return authorization, and sent a label. They didn't say they'd actually replace the brass, but I'm sure they'll just send another box out when they get this one.

Remington told me their brass sometimes gets damaged during shipment. (Really? Who'd have known? ) They are supposed to be mailing me a coupon, or certificate, or something. I don't like the response, but the person I talked to was quite friendly.

I'll consider the .35 Whelen brass an isolated incident, but the previous lots (.30-06 Nickel, .303 British, and .30-40 Krag) had more problems than just shipping damage. They are going to leave a lasting impression. I'll definitely be inspecting brass better, right after the purchase (when -before- is not an option). I generally just put the bag/box of new brass behind any older brass on my shelves, when I buy more (to rotate stock). With the .30-40 Krag and .35 Whelen, that meant I didn't discover the issues until some time later.

Perhaps I'll just go to Winchester .30-06 for .35 Whelen. Once formed, they have better neck tension than the R-P brass, and the necks are the within 0.002" of the R-P neck thickness.
I also have 50 pieces of Win .30-06 left, that have excessively thick necks (for new brass) at .30 caliber. Once opened to .35 caliber, they have 0.017"-0.019" thick necks. - just about perfect, and ~30% thicker than R-P factory.

In summary:
Hornady appears to be making things right.
Remington responded as expected.
Winchester's poor neck forming may finally be a benefit, in a single, limited application.

[healea11]

I bought some Winchester brass about a month ago and all of mine was the same way yours is. I had to resize them all and several were tossed in the scrap bucket because the cases looked like a melted piece of plastic. Your not picky but when your buying "quality" you expect quality, no need to hold back. WRITE A LETTER!!! LOL

[Sevens]

Hey FM...
It occurred to me today that .35 Whelen was basically a wildcat for a number of decades. And I was thinking that many of the popular wildcats are pretty easy to form, 'cause that's how so many of them get popular as wildcats.

I believe .35 Whelen is simply a necked-up .30/06.

How come you aren't forming these instead of buying them?

[FrankenMauser]

How come you aren't forming these instead of buying them?

I just wanted some brass with the correct head stamp.

I have some .35 Whelen formed from .30-06 (the lot previously mentioned with horribly thick necks at .30 caliber). In the future, I'll probably keep an eye out for .270 Win or .280 Rem brass for forming. The extra working of the brass (more expansion required) affects the life of the cases, but the .30-03 length is nice to work with. Although, you do end up with thin necks like R-P factory brass (R-P .35 Whelen is reported to be drawn as .280 Rem, until the final forming step - which results in the thin necks).

[handlerer2]

I have only had one experience with Rem bag brass and it was a bad one. I bought 20 pieces of Rem brass for 300WBY, for $7.00. I thought that was a bargain,so I thought that I would try it.

I had a good load that I liked using WBY-Norma brass, which I knocked two grains off of , because I always start light. I was loading a Hornady 190gr jspbt that I have good results with. As I said I reduced the normal load and was very surprised signs of very high pressure on the first case and the primer was missing on #2. That was all I fired of those. I have loaded the same bullet to higher velocity, over 3100fps, with no signs of excessive pressure, using WBY brass. The average velocity of the two rounds I fired using the Rem bag brass was under 3000fps. Go figure?

Is Norma brass that much better than domestic brass? I believe that bag brass may be inferior,and is exposed to possibly sloppy handling. I can see boxes of bullets piled in the same container for shipping. It is also possible that I have become accostomed to the quality of Norma brass because I reload and shoot two WBY rifles, 300WBY, and a 340WBY so I had until then only used factory brass to reload.

I wonder now just how much would I have to reduce my loads to even be used? Or should I just scrap them?

[FrankenMauser]

I wonder now just how much would I have to reduce my loads to even be used? Or should I just scrap them?

My experience with Norma brass doesn't match yours. So...

I don't have any useful advice for you, other than to suggest checking actual grains-of-water case capacity of each brand - and going from there.

[Paul B.]

Those necks don't look all that bad. They just look like what happens from tumbling and being bounced around in shipping. I use a cut down drift punch for 30 caliber and up and a nail set for .284 and smaller. Less than 10 inutes work and those necks would be fine. Much ado about nothing.
Paul B.

[amamnn]

I would think someone of your exprience would be familiar with the realities of marketing and sales--and would long ago moved to the "premium" brasses..........................................................

[FrankenMauser]

I would think someone of your exprience would be familiar with the realities of marketing and sales--and would long ago moved to the "premium" brasses

I'm very familiar with marketing and sales techniques. It's just that Remington and Winchester still put out a product that is perfectly usable for the average reloader. For more picky reloaders, the brass requires a little prep, but is still generally worth the cost. Until these last few lots of R-P brass, my only complaint with Remington was the dented mouths.

For my uses, the .35 Whelen doesn't need premium brass. Formed brass or R-P .35 Whelen will do what I need it to. Its only intended uses are: Squirrels/Rabbits (practice). Large Cervidae (Elk, Moose). Buffalo (if I ever get around to buying points for the draw). For those uses, I don't need premium brass.

However, other cartridges (.270 Win, .30-06, .243 Win) may become premium-only propositions - so long as I can afford it. I've got enough brass on hand to last quite a while, though (20 years?). In the mix are 100 Lapua .30-06, ~40 Norma .30-06, ~40 Norma .270 Win., a handful of Norma .243 Win, ONE Lapua .243 Win , and I think I have some Nosler .270 Win. (The .220 Swift is being rebarreled to .243 Win, so all that beautiful Norma brass will be sold off.)

I do have some direct comparisons set up with Lapua vs R-P vs Win vs LC 69 in the .30-06. I'm hoping to be able to shoot it all over Easter weekend.

--
I received a PM, asking if Hornady had responded to me. So, I figured I'd just post here.
Hornady is scheduled to get the brass tomorrow ("early delivery"). I doubt there will be any one there to handle the return; so, I'll probably not hear from them until Monday. I'll let your know what they say.

[mrbro]

FM, I'd be very interested to hear the results of your -06 brass testing as I'm doing the same thing myself.

[FrankenMauser]

Minor update:
Hornady sent me an email to acknowledge receiving my bad brass, on Monday, April 18th.

I have not heard from them since. I called today (Apr 25th), and no one in their sales department would answer the phone ("Sales" handles returns).

I'm going to try again, tomorrow, to see if I can get some one to pick up the damn phone. (The standard customer service phones were staffed, but no one would answer in "Sales".)

FM, I'd be very interested to hear the results of your -06 brass testing as I'm doing the same thing myself.

We got snowed out this weekend. I didn't get a chance to run the '06 test loads through the rifle. ...Maybe in a few weeks....

[FrankenMauser]

I was finally able to get some one in the Hornady sales department to answer the phone, on May 3rd (I missed a couple days, trying to call).

They still hadn't contacted me, at all, at that time. The rep that answered the phone was not happy to be the person that had to tell me they will not be running .44 Rem Mag brass until at least late June... probably later.

They would not give a refund of any kind. The only choices they gave me were:
A) Wait for the next run of brass.
B) Find something else of similar value, that they had in stock.*

*"In Stock" is the keyword here. Many of their products were out of stock, including: All ammunition I might have wanted. All bullets I wanted. All bullets Cornbush wanted. All bullets Crankylove wanted. A sizing die Crankylove needs. And nearly anything else I could think of.

I ended up having to settle for a seating die, and their dial calipers.

Not a good experience. I would have been better off sending the brass back to Midway, for a refund. It could have been worse, but I'm not happy.

[langenc]

I bought it at the Midvale, UT Sportsman's Warehouse store. If I showed them a picture, they wouldn't give me the time of day. If I tried to return it, they'd tell me to get bent. The only hope in that store, is a friendly old guy that is a die-hard hand loader. But, he's just a salesman. He wouldn't have much sway with management. ...Their store policies are horrible, but we don't have many options for non-mainstream reloading supplies around here. (.35 Whelen is far from popular here) Copied from above--


Send this website and thread to some brass at Remington and see what happens

[GreenMachine]

Just a heads up Midway shows that they will start to carry Nosler Brass for the 35 Whelen. http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=437504

Not sure if it is worth the cost but I thought it would help with the thread.

I know that Doubletap 35 Whelen brass is made by Starline. But Starline will not sell it as it is proprietary to Doubletap at I am sure a huge mark up in price.

I just got a 35 Whelen with a 1-14 Twist and was looking at options for available brass.

[FrankenMauser]

Thanks for the info.

[GreenMachine]

You are very welcome. But what do you think?

[troy_mclure]

just another reason i wish starline made bottle neck brass as well as straight wall.

[GreenMachine]

Troy they do make some bottle neck Brass. But they do not sell to the public.

Such as 35 Whelen Brass that Starline Makes. But it is only sold to Double Tap

[langenc]

Maybe someone else said this--

What does Remington say about the brass-send em pictures.. I not going to replace it.

sent the pics to some of those gun mag writers(Boddington for one) and ask them if Rem ever supplied any brass to them like that.

[Outlaw81]

Hey Frankie! !! I see some lapua, Norma, or at least Winchester in ur near future. I gave up on Remington two years ago due to inconsistency and the crap they send out. Winchester is a little better but work still has to be done. Good luck!!

[armoredman]

When I had money to buy new brass it was Winchester, 7.62x39mm, and they almost always looked like that when they came out of the baggie. I knew that the first thing I would be doing was resizing, trimming and chamfering every peice. I never had to throw any out right out of the bag, though. After they jerked my chain on a bad primer, I won't buy Winchester components again.

[FrankenMauser]

I ended up loading all that brass, back in May. It's a dead issue. I decided to consider it an isolated incident.

You are very welcome. But what do you think?

It's good to see some decent brass hitting the market for .35 Whelen, but, as I explained back in April, I don't need premium brass for this particular cartridge. R-P .35 Whelen or formed .270/.280 are enough for me.

At $1.28 per case, you might as well be forming from Lapua .30-06 cases, or having Quality Cartridge run a custom order for you.

[GreenMachine]

Franken Thank You for the update.

Mine is a Standard 35 Whelen but looking up information and kicking around the idea after Hunting Season to have it rechambered to an Ackley Improved. Just not sure if it would be worth it in the end or not?

[FrankenMauser]

Just not sure if it would be worth it in the end or not?

An interesting scenario.

Not because of the debate about whether or not it is worthwhile, but because .35 Whelen AI is closer to the original specs, than the modern version.

It all goes back to the .400 Whelen. The original .400 Whelen did not have the body taper that earned it a bad reputation for headspace issues. It was a blown-out case (but did retain the same shoulder angle). When James V. Howe created the .35 Whelen, he did not start with .30-03; he started with the already-blown-out .400 Whelen. So, it was what we might, today, call a .35 Whelen AI.

Somewhere in history, the reloading die companies screwed up. They took .30-06 case dimensions, opened the neck to .40 caliber, and called it .400 Whelen. This is where .400 Whelen went from an obscure wildcat, to a wildcat know for being dangerous to deal with. Without the blown-out body, the cartridge's shoulder was minuscule. Sloppy chambers allowed cases to fall too far into the chamber, or allowed firing pin strikes to drive the cartridge forward. Headspace was not reliably safe, and the cartridge became doomed. ...Because some one, somewhere, wasn't paying attention to the details, when they decided to recreate the cartridge dimensions.

They did the same for .35 Whelen. When Remington adopted .35 Whelen as a standard cartridge, they used the "bastard" version that had been incorrectly (re)created after the cartridge's initial development. The cartridge lost it's minimum taper design, and reverted to .30-06 body specifications. Now, a true .35 Whelen must be created essentially from scratch, as a wildcat (just as it was for 65+ years), but .35 Whelen AI gets you really close... without the extra cost of designing your own reamers for the chamber and die(s).


In my opinion, the "performance increase" is trivial. But, I frown upon many AI cartridges. All it really comes down to, are two questions:
Do you want something with a different name on the barrel (.35 Whelen AI)?
Do you want to be shooting a more traditional form of the cartridge, or a modern bastardization?