Ever seen a 5" Navy contract Victory Model?

SaxonPig · January 3, 2016, 09:28 AM

I've told this story before but it's been a while.

About 13 years ago I bought a Navy contract VM from a local pawn shop. The barrel was bulged and the owner couldn't sell it. I looked at it and said that if I got it cheap enough I might be able to work with it. He said name a price. Without thinking it through enough I blurted out $60 and he happily replied "Sold!" He even covered the sales tax for me. What a guy.

The barrel had to be replaced. My problem was that the gun smiths I asked wanted $150-$200 in labor. The refinished revolver with a replacement barrel wasn't worth that much investment. If I couldn't do it myself it wouldn't get done.

I found a 5" barrel on ebay that I bagged for the starting price of $5. The serial on the barrel suggested a 1939 manufacture date so it was very close to the 1942 date on the gun. I stripped the gun down to the bare frame and barrel and soaked overnight in penetrating oil. Using the large bench vise in my garage, I clamped the barrel between two 1" pieces of soft pine. I had a punch that fit and drove out the retaining pin. It popped right out in 2 seconds. Then I put a hammer handle through the cylinder window up as close to the forcing cone as possible to reduce the twisting force on the frame and gently applied pressure. The barrel unscrewed like the lid off a pickle jar. It just came right off as slick as you please.

The new barrel went in the same way. I screwed it in until I ran out of threads with the sight blade at 12 o'clock. With a feeler gauge I determined the B/C clearance to be .005". Perfect. It was almost as if that barrel was made for that frame...which of course it was. God bless mass produced parts intended for assembly line production.

The pin reinsertion was a bear. It was very hard to get the holes lined up precisely. Everything up until this point took about 5 minutes. Seriously, from clamping the gun in the vise to being ready to install the pin took maybe 5 minutes. I thought about that $200 the smith wanted trying to calculate his hourly rate but I'm not good at math. But then I spent another 25 minutes tweaking the barrel back and forth trying to wiggle that darn pin back in. I finally got it but it wasn't a smooth operation.

I test fired the gun and it shot fine. It was wearing the late 1940s "sharp shoulder" Magnas and I liked them so they stayed where they were. Back on ebay I found an older Bianchi holster for a 5" K frame and got it for $5. Apparently I buy a lot of stuff on ebay for $5. I hated the hole in the butt for the missing lanyard ring so I bought a handful of them from a guy at a gun show for...yup...$5 each (I have used 2 and given away a couple to guys who needed one and still have a couple left just in case). Total investment is $75 for a cool 5" M&P in a nice holster. Plus a half hour of my time.

A few years ago I tested it with 500 rounds of factory +P and 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125 JHP@1150 FPS) to satisfy myself that all this nonsense about +P ammo damaging a pre-model marked S&W was...well, nonsense. It was. Nonsense, I mean.

Someday when I am dead and gone, and my wife has sold all my guns, somebody will be looking at the only 5" U.S. military Victory Model he's ever seen thinking "What the hell?" Too bad he won't know the story behind it.

tallball · January 3, 2016, 09:43 AM

Great story! Thank you for sharing.

I also like bargains and don't mind making some minor repairs (though I have never installed a barrel).

People who claim that "you get what you pay for" should widen their horizons. I have a number of used handguns that I paid less than $200 for that are excellent shooters. I got them inexpensively due to careful shopping and being willing to roll the dice. I can't beat your $60 price yet, but I will keep trying!

sawdoff · January 3, 2016, 10:25 PM

That is a sexy revolver.

**Mike Irwin** · January 4, 2016, 07:06 AM

Yep. Quite a few.

rodfac · January 4, 2016, 09:13 AM

Great story, Saxon....makes me regret the dozen or so Smiths I've passed on over the years based on barrel crown/bore condition and a few other issues. Now that I'm retired, maybe it's time to take on a 'project' gun. You've tweaked my imagination.....always wanted a 'Victory' model in .38 special too!

BTW, does it shoot to the sights? Just curious.

Rod

lamarw · January 4, 2016, 11:23 AM

Always heartwarming to see an old one recovered. Nice job~

Bob Wright · January 4, 2016, 12:56 PM

For anyone thinking of doing a barrel replacement, I'll pass along a tip from Hamilton Bowen:

Cut a long strip of duct tape, and fold it lengthwise so the sticky side is out, making sort of double sided tape. Wrap these strips around the barrel full length of the wooden vise jaw inserts, wrapping so each turn overlaps the previous. Use leather to line the wooden block inserts and clamp in the vise. As you said, a hammer handle or other piece of hardwood is used for a lever, keep the wood as close to the front of the frame as possible, even notch around the barrel extension.

This places no more strain on the frame than the action wrench.

Bob Wright

SaxonPig · January 4, 2016, 02:32 PM

"Yep. Quite a few."

Really? You've seen quite a few 5" NAVY CONTRACT VMs?

DaleA · January 4, 2016, 04:50 PM

You gotta love it when a plan comes together.

Nice story.

gyvel · January 4, 2016, 05:14 PM

I have always found that rosin (available from Brownell's) applied to the wood blocks is an excellent "sticking" agent.

What is the approximate chamber pressure of the +p+ loads you were firing.

**Mike Irwin** · January 4, 2016, 07:19 PM

I just use a pipe wrench....

gyvel · January 5, 2016, 06:50 AM

Quote:

I just use a pipe wrench....

LOL!! I actually did use a pipe wrench on a frowsy Luger that had a non-existent bore, and I mean non-existent. You could see (I think) shadows where rifling had once been, but that was about it. The pipe wrench worked very well.

I did rebarrel it with an aftermarket "Made in Austria" barrel and it has proved to be a pretty good shooter that you can't hurt. (And no, I didn't use the pipe wrench to rebarrel. I used my wood block barrel vise.)

gyvel · January 5, 2016, 06:53 AM

Quote:

What is the approximate chamber pressure of the +p+ loads you were firing.

Saxon, I'd still like to know your guestimate on the chamber pressure of the +p+ loads you fired.

rodfac · January 5, 2016, 07:07 AM

Bob Wright, good tip, thanks. Rod

**Mike Irwin** · January 5, 2016, 07:53 AM

If you don't care about the barrel that you're removing, that's one thing.

The one time I did replace a barrel I made my own frame blocks out of some scrap hardwood and held them in place with a couple of Jorgenson clamps.

gyvel · January 5, 2016, 08:53 AM

Quote:

If you don't care about the barrel that you're removing, that's one thing.

That's why I used the pipe wrench. The gun itself is no prize and the barrel was completely shot out, and I mean completely. The front sight was salvageable and that was it.

As it stands now it is a knockabout shooter, but the new barrel I put on definitely looks out of place on this gun. (Trust me: This particular Luger has ZERO collector value.)

For "normal" handguns I have a barrel vice that uses various sizes of hardwood blocks with liberal amounts of Brownell"s rosin in the bored holes, and a much larger version for rifles.

SaxonPig · January 8, 2016, 11:18 AM

That load came from an older reloading manual. In the 1980s they started reducing the load levels on advice of counsel. Used to be 38 Special ammo producers and reloading manuals worked at a 21,500 PSI limit but now they use 20,000 s max (but I hear most is actually loaded at 18,500) for +P and 17,000 for standard 38 Special loads and those are very low, IMO.

I am told the +P+ loads for police and government agents run 23,500. Ever heard of a cop's 38 blowing up? I am guessing the original 38-44 load (158@1140) was around 24,000 PSI. I am sure my load generates around 21,500 PSI because as I noted that's where older manuals used to be. This load has worked fine in D frame Colts, J frame S&Ws, and I even fired a few through an old Rossi small frame revolver. No problems.

LAH · January 8, 2016, 10:06 PM

Nice work. Love those old Smiths.

ThomasT · January 9, 2016, 02:20 PM

Nice gun Saxonpig. I love those old pencil barrel model 10s. Several years ago my local Cabelas had a 5" model 10 for around $250 IIRC. I should have bought it.

My buddy gave me his 6" model 10 with the pencil barrel. Love it. It looks so retro.

DMK · January 10, 2016, 07:46 PM

Were just the Navy guns not made with 5" barrels?

I have a Lend Lease S&W British Service Revolver (38/200) with a 5" barrel.

sixplus1 · January 12, 2016, 01:12 AM

Umm... I don't see the Navy marking on the above photo..... there were lots of different Victory models - I have one. But only a few are marked as Navy models. So, why do you think you have a Navy Model? Mine has the faded bluing and original wood grip like the one in this picture....

SaxonPig · January 13, 2016, 10:06 AM

I had it lettered. Says right in the letter it was a Navy contract gun shipped 8/19/42.

The VMs made for U.S. use were 4" 38 Specials. The export guns for Great Britain were mostly 5" in 38 S&W. There were no 5" U.S. guns in 38 Special. That's why this one would puzzle a collector for a moment until he checked the serial under the barrel and realized it was a replacement.

roaddog28 · January 15, 2016, 11:10 AM

Great job Saxon. I love the 1940s era K frames. They are classic and good looking.
Enjoy this one.

January 3, 2016, 09:28 AM	#1
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	Ever seen a 5" Navy contract Victory Model? I've told this story before but it's been a while. About 13 years ago I bought a Navy contract VM from a local pawn shop. The barrel was bulged and the owner couldn't sell it. I looked at it and said that if I got it cheap enough I might be able to work with it. He said name a price. Without thinking it through enough I blurted out $60 and he happily replied "Sold!" He even covered the sales tax for me. What a guy. The barrel had to be replaced. My problem was that the gun smiths I asked wanted $150-$200 in labor. The refinished revolver with a replacement barrel wasn't worth that much investment. If I couldn't do it myself it wouldn't get done. I found a 5" barrel on ebay that I bagged for the starting price of $5. The serial on the barrel suggested a 1939 manufacture date so it was very close to the 1942 date on the gun. I stripped the gun down to the bare frame and barrel and soaked overnight in penetrating oil. Using the large bench vise in my garage, I clamped the barrel between two 1" pieces of soft pine. I had a punch that fit and drove out the retaining pin. It popped right out in 2 seconds. Then I put a hammer handle through the cylinder window up as close to the forcing cone as possible to reduce the twisting force on the frame and gently applied pressure. The barrel unscrewed like the lid off a pickle jar. It just came right off as slick as you please. The new barrel went in the same way. I screwed it in until I ran out of threads with the sight blade at 12 o'clock. With a feeler gauge I determined the B/C clearance to be .005". Perfect. It was almost as if that barrel was made for that frame...which of course it was. God bless mass produced parts intended for assembly line production. The pin reinsertion was a bear. It was very hard to get the holes lined up precisely. Everything up until this point took about 5 minutes. Seriously, from clamping the gun in the vise to being ready to install the pin took maybe 5 minutes. I thought about that $200 the smith wanted trying to calculate his hourly rate but I'm not good at math. But then I spent another 25 minutes tweaking the barrel back and forth trying to wiggle that darn pin back in. I finally got it but it wasn't a smooth operation. I test fired the gun and it shot fine. It was wearing the late 1940s "sharp shoulder" Magnas and I liked them so they stayed where they were. Back on ebay I found an older Bianchi holster for a 5" K frame and got it for $5. Apparently I buy a lot of stuff on ebay for $5. I hated the hole in the butt for the missing lanyard ring so I bought a handful of them from a guy at a gun show for...yup...$5 each (I have used 2 and given away a couple to guys who needed one and still have a couple left just in case). Total investment is $75 for a cool 5" M&P in a nice holster. Plus a half hour of my time. A few years ago I tested it with 500 rounds of factory +P and 600 rounds of my own +P+ (125 JHP@1150 FPS) to satisfy myself that all this nonsense about +P ammo damaging a pre-model marked S&W was...well, nonsense. It was. Nonsense, I mean. Someday when I am dead and gone, and my wife has sold all my guns, somebody will be looking at the only 5" U.S. military Victory Model he's ever seen thinking "What the hell?" Too bad he won't know the story behind it.

January 4, 2016, 07:06 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Yep. Quite a few. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 4, 2016, 09:13 AM	#5
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	Great story, Saxon....makes me regret the dozen or so Smiths I've passed on over the years based on barrel crown/bore condition and a few other issues. Now that I'm retired, maybe it's time to take on a 'project' gun. You've tweaked my imagination.....always wanted a 'Victory' model in .38 special too! BTW, does it shoot to the sights? Just curious. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

January 4, 2016, 12:56 PM	#7
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	For anyone thinking of doing a barrel replacement, I'll pass along a tip from Hamilton Bowen: Cut a long strip of duct tape, and fold it lengthwise so the sticky side is out, making sort of double sided tape. Wrap these strips around the barrel full length of the wooden vise jaw inserts, wrapping so each turn overlaps the previous. Use leather to line the wooden block inserts and clamp in the vise. As you said, a hammer handle or other piece of hardwood is used for a lever, keep the wood as close to the front of the frame as possible, even notch around the barrel extension. This places no more strain on the frame than the action wrench. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

January 4, 2016, 05:14 PM	#10
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	I have always found that rosin (available from Brownell's) applied to the wood blocks is an excellent "sticking" agent. What is the approximate chamber pressure of the +p+ loads you were firing. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE

January 3, 2016, 09:43 AM	#2
tallball Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2014 Posts: 2,444	Great story! Thank you for sharing. I also like bargains and don't mind making some minor repairs (though I have never installed a barrel). People who claim that "you get what you pay for" should widen their horizons. I have a number of used handguns that I paid less than $200 for that are excellent shooters. I got them inexpensively due to careful shopping and being willing to roll the dice. I can't beat your $60 price yet, but I will keep trying!

January 3, 2016, 10:25 PM	#3
sawdoff Junior Member Join Date: March 29, 2014 Posts: 12	That is a sexy revolver.

January 4, 2016, 11:23 AM	#6
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Always heartwarming to see an old one recovered. Nice job~

January 4, 2016, 02:32 PM	#8
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	"Yep. Quite a few." Really? You've seen quite a few 5" NAVY CONTRACT VMs?

January 4, 2016, 04:50 PM	#9
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	You gotta love it when a plan comes together. Nice story.

January 4, 2016, 07:19 PM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I just use a pipe wrench....

January 5, 2016, 07:07 AM	#14
rodfac Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 3,623	Bob Wright, good tip, thanks. Rod __________________ Cherish our flag, honor it, defend it in word and deed, or get the hell out. Our Bill of Rights has been paid for by heros in uniform and shall not be diluted by misguided governmental social experiments. We owe this to our children, anything less is cowardice. USAF FAC, 5th Spl Forces, Vietnam Vet '69-'73.

January 5, 2016, 07:53 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	If you don't care about the barrel that you're removing, that's one thing. The one time I did replace a barrel I made my own frame blocks out of some scrap hardwood and held them in place with a couple of Jorgenson clamps. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 8, 2016, 11:18 AM	#17
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	That load came from an older reloading manual. In the 1980s they started reducing the load levels on advice of counsel. Used to be 38 Special ammo producers and reloading manuals worked at a 21,500 PSI limit but now they use 20,000 s max (but I hear most is actually loaded at 18,500) for +P and 17,000 for standard 38 Special loads and those are very low, IMO. I am told the +P+ loads for police and government agents run 23,500. Ever heard of a cop's 38 blowing up? I am guessing the original 38-44 load (158@1140) was around 24,000 PSI. I am sure my load generates around 21,500 PSI because as I noted that's where older manuals used to be. This load has worked fine in D frame Colts, J frame S&Ws, and I even fired a few through an old Rossi small frame revolver. No problems.

January 8, 2016, 10:06 PM	#18
LAH Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2002 Location: In The Hardwoods Posts: 1,188	Nice work. Love those old Smiths.

January 9, 2016, 02:20 PM	#19
ThomasT Senior Member Join Date: January 22, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 2,753	Nice gun Saxonpig. I love those old pencil barrel model 10s. Several years ago my local Cabelas had a 5" model 10 for around $250 IIRC. I should have bought it. My buddy gave me his 6" model 10 with the pencil barrel. Love it. It looks so retro.

January 10, 2016, 07:46 PM	#20
DMK Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2001 Location: Over the hills and far, far away Posts: 3,206	Were just the Navy guns not made with 5" barrels? I have a Lend Lease S&W British Service Revolver (38/200) with a 5" barrel. __________________ - Homeland Security begins at home: Support your Second Amendment - www.gunowners.org - www.saf.org - act.nraila.org - www.grnc.org

January 12, 2016, 01:12 AM	#21
sixplus1 Member Join Date: December 16, 2010 Posts: 35	Umm... I don't see the Navy marking on the above photo..... there were lots of different Victory models - I have one. But only a few are marked as Navy models. So, why do you think you have a Navy Model? Mine has the faded bluing and original wood grip like the one in this picture....

January 13, 2016, 10:06 AM	#22
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	I had it lettered. Says right in the letter it was a Navy contract gun shipped 8/19/42. The VMs made for U.S. use were 4" 38 Specials. The export guns for Great Britain were mostly 5" in 38 S&W. There were no 5" U.S. guns in 38 Special. That's why this one would puzzle a collector for a moment until he checked the serial under the barrel and realized it was a replacement.

January 15, 2016, 11:10 AM	#23
roaddog28 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2009 Location: Escondido, CA Posts: 961	Great job Saxon. I love the 1940s era K frames. They are classic and good looking. Enjoy this one.