Long range .308 hunting load.

[dakotadudepaul]

It was not my intention to start a debate about the ethics of long range shots. I guide elk hunts and I have seen guys with .325 wsms' and they are so scared to shoot them that it makes no difference how much energy they carry or anything else. They flinch so bad they always make a bad shot. I do not believe we should be un-ethical hunters. Many men define that in various ways depending on ability and equipment. I have seen elk killed at 700 yds with a .308 and it did just fine. The elk took about 3 steps and fell over backwards. Antelope, deer, and other mid sized game will fall to a well placed bullet at longer ranges. I am a big fan of a well placed shot from a gun that I shoot well. There were 2 men who killed elephants with a .223. How did they do it? Well placed shots. We should never compensate for poor shooting skills with a bigger gun.

Not that i am done discussing ethics of hunting,


Why do you have to hand load the burger vld? Is an amax a better choice to avoid that? I just spent $300 for a 10 round magazine conversion and I would really like to use it?

[5RWill]

If it's any consolation a good load i've been shooting through my 5R has been 155gr lapua scenar with 46gr of varget. Zak Smiths load data on his site opts for 45.2, i started at 46 and it was good enough for me but i imagine Zaks is a little tighter. Anyway certainly not the heaviest bullet but has a good BC for .30 cal bullets and will retain some energy down range. This is just my opinion not tryin to steer you away from it, but shooting any decent size animal at 1000yds i would go with a 300 win mag or bigger. There is also one key note no matter what your shooting unless you do it for a living or on a regular basis a 1000yd shot is a difficult shot. Talking about precise placed shots with the .308 @ 1000yds is easier said than done. Here's my latest group with the 155gr scenars.

[cookhj]

I load my 208s pretty long, but I haven't even tried to load them in the mag yet. You could seat them deeper to mag length (I think) but it'll reduce your powder capacity. My load is 50gr of RL17 in a WIN case and BR2 primers. Start with 44-46gr and work up. You can use similar powder loading for 210 bergers as well.

[M.O.A.]

dakota the amax does have a better bc but a thiner jacket and tends to come apart but at longer ranges it might not make that much deffrents

[dakotadudepaul]

So, If I want to magazine feed them, the 178 gr AMAX with varget would be a good choice? If so, where do I find powder charge info? any primer suggestion?

[Big Yac]

I loaded up some 180gr Sierra bullets with IMR 4895 powder which work extremely well for long range 308 shooting which is nice since I also load the 180 gr bullets in my 30-06 using IMR 4895...ofcourse with a different powder charge.

[Unclenick]

Paul,

Since it's a Hornady bullet, the Hornady handbook has data. The 178 grain A-Max does, indeed, accommodate SAAMI Maximum (magazine compatible) 2.800" COL. So, unlike some VLD's, it is not too long in the ogive for that. In a Hornady/Frontier case with Federal 210 primer and seated to 2.800" COL, Hornady recommends:

Varget: 32.0 grains minimum, 43.2 grains maximum.

and for two other accuracy favorites of mine,

IMR 4064: 34.0 grains minimum, 41.3 grains maximum.

Reloader 15: 34.8 grains minimum, 41.4 grains maximum.

Right out of the box, I can tell you the minimum loads are super mild (2000 fps from their 22" barrel model 70) because they are "don't go below" loads and not just safe pressure starting loads. Going the usual 10% below the maximums listed is safe as starting loads if the mild loads are not what you are interested in.

I will caution you about assuming the Hornady maximums are mild because of your particular bullet choice. If you look up the 180 grain bullet data on Hodgdon's site, you find loads almost 4 grains higher. That's partly because Hornady tends to load mild, but its also partly because Hodgdon uses Winchester cases, which have more room in them, and Hodgdon uses a Speer 180 grain bullet that is 1.160" long, which is almost a sixth of an inch shorter than the A-Max (1.318" long according to Bryan Litz's measurement; QuickLOAD users note the 178 A-Max in QL's database is too short), but seated to the same COL. That means the A-Max seating depth is almost a sixth of an inch deeper into a case that is smaller in capacity to begin with. The result is about 3.075 cc's of powder space vs. 3.375 cc's of powder space under the seated bullet, or about 9% difference. That will mean it takes about 5-6% less powder to hit the same peak pressures in the two situations, or not quite 3 grains difference. So, mind the Hornady numbers and work up beyond them at your own risk and only if you know what you are doing.

[dahermit]

A long range hunting load in a .308 is unsportsmanlike conduct and will result in wounded game.
Never less than a 30-06 and more better a .300 mag.
Keep that rifle on the range.

The guy is talking about taking shots at 1000 yards. Any shooting of game at any distance where a person cannot put a bullet into the heart/lung area is arguably, "unsportsmanlike". Not hitting the heart/lung area results in wounded game.

It has little to do with the cartridge, it has to do with the attitude.

If you purchased a prime beef and were going to butcher it yourself, would you back out to 1000 yards before you shot it?

[M.O.A.]

i have seen just as many people lose animals that where shoot a close range as i have seen at long range and if someone want to take long range shots then who are any of you to say deffrent


as for where to get the load data go to hogdon load data they have the load that you want at 46gns as the max and its a crush load witch some say shoot better

[Tom284]

Varget and 150 grain bullets. very accurate and hard hitting on white tails. never hunted elk.

[dahermit]

i have seen just as many people lose animals that where shoot a close range as i have seen at long range and if someone want to take long range shots then who are any of you to say deffrent

Yup. i takes gut shots alls the time. Gut shots putts um right down. It dont make no s "deffrent".
When i s takes 1000 yard shots and the elks dont fall down right away, i knows that it was a complete miss...no reason to go look, i s use a .300 ultra magnum. if en i had hit um they would have dropped right there.

[M.O.A.]

oh did you get mad because you cant shoot past 200 yards im sorry

[dakotadudepaul]

Went to the range yesterday and even shooting 168 grain btsp, had no trouble shooting targets in a 4 mph cross wind at 1000. The ethics of the whole thing atre no different at 1000 than they are at 1000. If you know the rifle, bullet, atmosphere, etc, and spend the time to ensure that you can perform, animals will fall at 1000. I have killed both elk and caribou at over 700. A big gun is no substitute for a well placed bullet.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Dakotadudepaul

The ethics of the whole thing are no different at 1000 than they are at 1000.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

[dakotadudepaul]

hahaha, I meant 100 and 1000 hahah

[M.O.A.]

the 168gners are a good bullet i like hornady but some say there not hunting bullet

[Unclenick]

In theory, anyway.

In general, match bullets have thinner jackets because it's easier to get near-perfect wall thickness uniformity in a thinner jacket. The thinner jackets then don't hold together as well in game. Berger didn't suggest their VLD's for hunting for a long time because of that, but had their minds changed when experimenters got good results anyway. I've seen at least one photo of a Sierra MatchKing bullet recovered from game whose core was relatively intact, but the jacket was just in pieces. I don't know if Berger does something different? Both Sierra and Hornady have extensive lines of hunting bullets already and may not be interested in promoting hunting with their match bullets, anyway. Berger sort of lucked into it as a second purpose, as near as I can tell.

Try some experiments in wet newspaper or even just water jugs. Do a few through uncooked bone on their way into the water. See how they hold together for you at the anticipated impact velocities, as compared to some hunting bullet designs.

[JerryM]

Personally I don't believe shooting at game at 1,000 yards is sporting, and is not much hunting. However, some disagree, and as long as it is legal do it if you wish. Hunting is as much about stalking as shooting.

Take a look at ballistics charts and see how much drop, wind drift, and energy a bullet has at that range. I suspect that hunters attempting to stalk and then have some 1,000 yard shooter spook the game are not very appreciative.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...erger-bullets/

I would suggest that you try some 1,000 yard shooting from field shooting positions. If you cannot keep your shots in 10" or less from field positions you should not shoot at that range. It is a lot more difficult to shoot from the side of a mountain with your heart pumping than on the range.

Added:
Using the Berger program.
Sighted in for 250 yards, using the Berger 168 gr bullet the drop at 1,000 yards is 297.3 inches (24.75 feet), 10 MPH wind drift is 87.37 inches, and energy is 681 ft-lb.
I think our game deserves better sportsmanship than to shoot at such ranges with a higher probability of wounding and losing than killing and recovering.


Regards,
Jerry

[dakotadudepaul]

Jerry, it is encouraging to see a Bible verse on your post!~!!!!!!

[dakotadudepaul]

So, if I load the vld and seat them deep enough to run through my magazine, what will happen? Is is an accuracy thing? If so, how much will it effect it? Will I still be under m.o.a?

[89blazin]

At 1000 yds., a 150-155gr will be most accurate...check out the Palma guys' loads. Out to 500 yds. or so, I prefer Nosler 160gr Partition bullets.

[5RWill]

If you cannot keep your shots in 10" or less from field positions you should not shoot at that range. It is a lot more difficult to shoot from the side of a mountain with your heart pumping than on the range.

Agreed. Not that i'm an expert or anything as i haven't shot at 1000yds, but most people don't understand how hard it is to shoot at 1000yds. Conditions change downrange in a matter of seconds throwing a shot off. Can the OP shoot at 1000yds? Not trying to be a smart@$$ or anything just asking.

If bullet selection is of choice i've been looking at 175gr, 185, and 190s. They all have high BC and if you can get them 2500fps or more they will still be supersonic out to 1000yds.

[Old Grump]

Dial your range back to under 400 yards and shoot the heaviest bullet your gun will shoot accurately. For my gun, an H&R .308 it is Remington 180 gr, Core-lokts. your gun will be different.

I don't care what Palma guys shoot in their guns, they are poking holes in paper, the caliber is limited to .308 and 155 gr Sierra Match King Palma bullets so that everybody is playing on the same field equally.

The Palma course of fire is 15 shots at 800 yards, 15 shots at 900 yards, and 15 shots at 1000 yards. Unlimited sighters precede the 800-yard stage and the 900 and 1000-yard stages are allowed two sighters.

This does not in any way compare to shooting flesh and blood animals on a mountain where you may have to travel several miles just to get to where you shot it, or shot at it.

[Rangefinder]

I've been holding off on putting my $0.2 in on this thread. BUT... It sounds to me an awful lot like the OP wants to take up "sniping", and wants to do so with live targets. GREAT--for P-dogs. For actually hunting game animals? Not cool, and definitely not ethical.

Can it be done? SURE! But I'd say one has to really examine the reason to justify it. First, I am a distance shooter. I shoot 1000M targets and can reliably put hits on 12" gongs. Gongs don't move. I don't have to wait for a gong to turn and give me a good broad-side view. Gongs aren't going to take a step during the 1-second flight time of my bullet changing my POI from a clean lung hit to a gut shot. Gongs always stay at their respective distances, so they don't play on my elevation adjustments. And--gongs don't run off after one tiny gust of wind somewhere between me and them changed my POI from clean-center to peripheral wounding, roughly translating to mean I don't have to track a gong for hours to finish it off if I don't hit it completely center.

Get the picture? If the OP wants to take up "sniping", there are plenty of ways to do so without involving a game animal. If he wants to hunt, this isn't the way to approach it.

[5RWill]

I completely agree rangefinder. We've all suggested it's not very ethical to do especially with a .308 but he goes on about how he didn't ask about the ethics of hunting. If he wants shoot decent sized game at 1000yds i would go .338 lapua or bigger. Just to ensure the animal dies pretty fast.