raise the group 45 acp cast

[garryc]

I'm shooting a new EAA witness 45 acp with fixed sights. The sights put a 230gr FMJ Winchester white box near point of aim.

I have a 230gr Lee TL TC mould.This bullet in front of 4 grains of bullseye shoots about 4.5 inches low at 20 yards. Slide speed is a little slow, recoil is very light. I just loaded 4.5 grains of the same powder hoping to raise the group.

I also had an issue of seating depth. If the bullet is not loaded so the case mouth is at the base of the truncated cone it will not seat. Some rounds had a little skid of lead ahead of the case. Now I add an operation that closes the case mouth, that is separate from seating the bullet. Seems to work well.

[chris in va]

Same issue I had with my Lee 452-225-1R mold. If I don't seat it REALLY short, the leade catches on the bullet ogive and jams the gun up.

Couple of things, I never had any luck with the TL designs. Once I switched to a 'regular' lube groove type, my accuracy got a lot tighter. Ditto with the TC version, but you may have luck with it.

Also be sure you don't have polygonal rifling in that gun. Many Witness models have it and you may get excessive lead buildup.

[garryc]

I shot them yesterday. While the fail to locks went way down, it still happened too much. I took a black magic marker and painted a case, bullets too big at .4545 (measured a few when I got home, .4545 was the biggest). Accurate as all heck though, big ones are probably the fliers I'm getting. So I ordered a .452 Lee sizer. I have a Lyman sizer, but I don't like them things much.

It does seem to make the tumble lube rather pointless though. But this will be faster than the Lyman sizer anyway.

[Scorch]

garryc-
Sounds like your powder charge is way too low. 4.0 gr is below the minimum in my Hornady loading manual for lead 230 gr. You should load that bullet in front of 5.0-5.5 gr of Bullseye in order to get reliable functioning and eliminate flyers.

[Unclenick]

Agree that 5 grains is probably the magic number. The short self-loaders have stiff springs and a lot less leeway than a full-size gun on recoil requirements.

The TL bullets are the most accurate molds I have, including some much more expensive ones. I literally saw group sizes cut in half when I moved my .38 Special K-frame over to them.

I think maybe the tool you want is not a bullet sizer, but the Lee Factory Crimp die with its carbide OD ring to make sure all rounds fit the chamber. But if you got the sizer, try it. My guns like the TL bullets as-sized.

[garryc]

I have an RCBS taper crimp die that I use. On some of the loads the bullet bulges out of the case, simply too big diameter. The coloring on the case show it riding near the base of the bullet, all the way around, like a ring.

[mikld]

Yep, sounds like your boolits are too big in diameter. I have the Lee Truncated Cone 230 gr., standard lube mold that works pretty good in my RIA 1911. I tumble lube them with alox/JPW and pan lube with Lar's alox/beeswax mix. I think the Lee sizer die/lube set up will solve your problem.

Also, use the barrel of your gun for a gage. I don't know how difficult it is to remove the barrel from your Witness, but it is the perfect gage. Use the "plop" method; drop a loaded round in the chamber and it should "plop" in the barrel even with the rear of the chamber.

[Poodleshooter]

Yup-I had this trouble in a Glock 30,and have been down this road before. I ditched the G30 and now use the same loads in a 1911.
Shaved lead from a well belled case will be a good indicator of an overly large bullet. Once sized, they work great.
That Lee mold throws them a little wide sometimes if the mold is too hot. I personally think that they tend to sag out of round a bit before cooling if they're cast too hot. Water dropping them helps fix this issue.
The Lee FCD is helpful,but more of a band-aid for bad bullets.
FWIW, I had far more out of round/diameter problems with purchased cast bullets than with my home cast bullets. Once I started water dropping them and watching my temperatures, the issue with oversized bullets causing seating problems seemed to disappear.

[Unclenick]

Keep in mind the .45 ACP case has a very slight taper (0.003") that is made straight and narrower in the sizing die, so a slightly more visible bulge than you see in a new case is normal. If you try to seat bullets too deeply or try to use a flat base bullet that is too heavy and therefore too long for the .45 ACP case, it will bulge extra because the brass gets thicker as you near the case head in this cartridge. This is common when people try to use some bullets designed for .45 Colt in the .45 ACP case.