Silencerco now offering trusts

Coach Z · February 12, 2015, 12:04 AM

Got an email newsletter including a link that they are now offering trusts. The price is really good (especially compared to the $700 I paid!) It obvosiouly helps their business a lot but I think it's great that they are making it easier to access the NFA for people who are hesitant or not as up on what it takes to purchase an NFA item.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...psa3e9bd01.jpg

Edit, auto correct removed the "co" from Silencerco

2nd edit to correct pic

Theohazard · February 12, 2015, 02:19 AM

Did you mean SilencerCo is offering trusts?

Coach Z · February 12, 2015, 09:20 AM

I did, edited to correct. Also trying to figure out why picture not posting correctly

Gunfixr · February 12, 2015, 10:13 AM

I'd be careful with that.
First, if silencerco doesn't have a lawyer on staff, or at least get that done by a lawyer, they could end up being charged with practicing law without a license.
Second, there is some variance from state to state about what constitutes a viable trust in that state. This is why it's mostly not recommended to use programs like quicken, as it's too general.
Unless it's been approved in every state, you could end up with a non viable trust, and that would create a problem.

Gunfixr · February 12, 2015, 10:17 AM

I know everybody gripes about paying a lawyer to do a gun trust, hell, I refused to pay the first guy $750, and found one cheaper.
But, think of it this way: how expensive is it to pay a lawyer per day of defense in federal court because you loaded up a non viable trust with nfa items?

Coach Z · February 12, 2015, 02:19 PM

I went through the process out of curiosity and it does ask exactly what state and county / parish / borough you live in.

It looks like they have done their homework but as always YMMV

eldorendo · March 20, 2015, 07:25 PM

SEG offers an NFA trust for $50_ Don't know if they have attorney on staff or not.

CodeSection · March 22, 2015, 07:53 PM

The price one pays for a very good attorney with experience in drafting a gun trust specific to your situation and state is well worth it. I spoke with three attorneys that supposedly had experience only to find out they maybe drafted one or two trusts a year. Also, their prices were a cheaper than most. Upon asking them the same questions, I found they all answered with conflicting information. In short, they were not experienced!

You get what you pay for.. Price should not be an issue, quality of the trust in your situation should be the focus. Do you go to the cheapest doctor for medical advice? Perhaps, WebMD gives you enough information to treat any and all illnesses. Really!?!

For me, I wanted a bullet proof trust that worked for my situation. Any price I pay now would be small as compared with defending any legal issues later.....for myself or family members that may be possession of Title II device.

I chose an irrevocable NFA Trust drafted by David Goldman, http://www.guntrustlawyer.com.

HKFan9 · April 18, 2015, 07:48 PM

I am lucky enough to have a best friend that is an attorney and I shoot trap with him and his boss (the owning partner in the firm) on a regular basis. They both laughed when I asked about a NFA trust and said its straight forward and everyone makes a big deal out of them when there's nothing to it.

I have a trust done by them that was free, and a few other of my co-workers and friends used the same trust and own multiple NFA items.

I agree to generally use a Lawyer, but everyone makes a big stink out of it, and lawyers are trying to charge way more than they should for it.

Do whatever makes you happy, but really they are not as complicated as a lot of people try to make you believe.

Silencerco is one of the industry leaders, I would bet BIG money their trusts are bulletproof and created by a lawyer, there is too much liability on their part not to.

CodeSection · July 11, 2015, 01:12 AM

Silencerco trusts are not getting a good review. Here is one review which highlights some problems ....

https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2015/...w-seminar.html

Here is another link about DIY trusts....

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-law-seminar/

To each their own....

Bartholomew Roberts · July 11, 2015, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Silencerco is one of the industry leaders, I would bet BIG money their trusts are bulletproof and created by a lawyer, there is too much liability on their part not to.

Bulletproof in what sense though? I'm sure that Silencerco trusts will be A) found valid by ATF and B) create a legally binding trust in most states; however, Silencerco's main interest (as you pointed out) is in selling you a product and protecting themselves liability-wise

According to the above link, the Silencerco trust terminates on the death of the settlor. That is an easy way to make a 50 state trust that doesn't violate the rule against perpetuities; but what happens if your beneficiary is not of legal age to own NFA weapons when you die? Silencerco's lawyer is protected (no invalid trusts due to RAP) but the results might not be what you were expecting.

barnbwt · July 11, 2015, 09:27 AM

I'd only be interested in paying out the wazoo for a lawyer's drafted trust, if;
-It isn't simply a copy of the same trust he gives everyone (and let's not pretend a lot don't do exactly this)
-It isn't a copy of someone else's trust, or a free trust, passed off as his own
-It has actually survived documented probate or legal scrutiny (probate/inheritance are really the more pressing concern, but good luck finding proof your guys' silver words have stood up in court)

Absent those things, I'm just not sure what a popularly-vetted (where many other folks have been Guinea pig before you) publicly available trust format has to offer, assuming you are smart/diligent enough to read through the thing and make sure it is applicable to your own situation (and doesn't leave your possessions to the estate of some internet guy on the other side of the country)

"They both laughed when I asked about a NFA trust and said its straight forward and everyone makes a big deal out of them when there's nothing to it."
Exactly. By all accounts, it sounds like a given lawyer will develop a form document applicable to each state's laws (likely using existing recipes), and duplicate it for each customer. Perhaps some truly 'tailor' the things to individual situations, but from the dozen or so trust documents I've read, they look very similar to one another. Much like actual tailoring, I think this approach is likely unneeded for most of the population without odd circumstances, and is mostly cost-padding.

TCB

Bartholomew Roberts · July 11, 2015, 10:17 AM

On legal documents, most everyone uses some kind of form. For example, the trust I used for myself took well over 80 man hours of work to develop. I couldn't charge clients for 80 hours of work every time they want a trust - nobody would pay it, including me. So the only way to make that a viable business is to make it into a reusable form and charge a much lower flat fee until I have eventually recouped my labor costs + profit (plus updating it as new cases and laws come out). To the extent I have to do more labor on it every time it is used (adding clauses someone else wants that I didn't, extending the trust to more beneficiaries, etc.), I have to charge someone for that extra work if I don't want to give it away for free.

This is an important part of the legal market to understand in NFA trusts; because there are basically three ways to make money:

1) You offer a simple 1-2 page form for a very low price and sell it to a lot of people. Because you are trying to keep your labor costs low and you can't afford to modify the form for every single customer, you are making it as generic as possible to fit as many potential customers as possible without any changes (think DPMS Sporter AR15). Your only big concerns are that A) it is valid when filled out properly and B) you have zero exposure to legal malpractice claims. Most states impose certain ethical responsibilities on lawyers that make it very difficult for ethical lawyers to get involved in this end of the business. Usually, you can't honor those obligations and compete with places like LegalZoom, Quicken, etc. that just give you a blank form and let the client be their own lawyer.

2) Instead of trying to make a little money on a lot of trusts, you go the other way and offer a high-end custom product (think a custom-built AR15 by MSTN, Novseke or Knights SR15) tailored to a specific client's needs. You are still probably going to use a form document as a base; but it will be modified to suit the customer. You'll also sit down with the client and spend some time understanding his needs, making suggestions, and guiding him through the NFA process and how to stay within the law. This requires a lot more time investment by the attorney but the product you get is designed for you.

3) You offer a slightly more detailed gun trust than 1) that is basically the same identical form document you sell to everyone (but meets the minimum standards in your state regarding ethical considerations) at a midrange price and then offer modifications to that document or additional assistance as an upsell. (This could be anything from some of the "production custom" S&W M&P15s VTAC line to Palmetto State's Premier AR15s). This is the most popular approach but you see everything from blank form trusts that have had the word "gun" added being sold for $200 (which is unethical in my view) to well-done trusts that deal with NFA specific problems while still being broad enough to accomodate most people's needs going for $150. The trouble is, most consumers just don't know enough to understand whether they are getting a good deal on these midrange offerings.

Like rifles, there isn't any one approach that is right for everyone; but you don't want to pay Knights SR15 prices for a DPMS Sporter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnbwt

-It has actually survived documented probate or legal scrutiny (probate/inheritance are really the more pressing concern, but good luck finding proof your guys' silver words have stood up in court)

Since one of the longstanding uses of a trust is to avoid probate, I doubt you'd want a trust that has been dragged into probate. The whole point in hiring a lawyer is to create a document that survives legal scrutiny. It's like doing your own plumbing - if you hire a bonded plumber and you end up with 3" of water on the floor during work, you know who to blame and who will pay to fix it. If you do it yourself, you know who to blame and who will pay to fix it too

but the outcome is a bit different.

CodeSection · July 11, 2015, 01:00 PM

Very good discussion and Bart.., thank you taking the time to go over the various trusts and trying to educate the differences. I guess people get what they pay for.

My NFA trust was prepared and tailored to my and my family needs. It was a process and took a couple of weeks to iron out all the details. It ended being 64 pages long. No 1-2 page or 10-12 page generic trust would have been suitable in my situation.

Bart... I hope you do not mind me pasting the link below where you wrote more about NFA trusts in an attempt to help educate.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527153

Bartholomew Roberts · July 11, 2015, 02:40 PM

Not a problem. I don't make any money directly from trusts as I only do them for clients, friends and other people I know personally. However, there is just a huge, huge knowledge gap between most consumers and the attorneys selling these trusts. I think a more educated client base is a good deal for everyone but the few unethical types, so I like to help with that to the extent I can without putting myself in an awkward position.

zukiphile · July 13, 2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bart

2) Instead of trying to make a little money on a lot of trusts, you go the other way and offer a high-end custom product (think a custom-built AR15 by MSTN, Novseke or Knights SR15) tailored to a specific client's needs. You are still probably going to use a form document as a base; but it will be modified to suit the customer. You'll also sit down with the client and spend some time understanding his needs, making suggestions, and guiding him through the NFA process and how to stay within the law. This requires a lot more time investment by the attorney but the product you get is designed for you.

Emphasis added.

This is what makes option 2 part of an ethical practice of law. The role of an attorney is ideally as an advisor, who apprises a person of his options in light of the law, helps the person make a knowing decision, and then provides that document that reflects those decisions.

I run into this in commercial litigation. Someone saves money by pulling an Operating Agreement off the internet. They may or may not have read the Operating Agreement, but they don't know what it means either way. Then they have a problem and realize that their document doesn't bear much of a relation to what they thought they had agreed to.

Form books are great, but they aren't a substitute for advice. Probably 9 times out of ten, the form is good enough and the people have no trouble at all. The fees paid to someone on that tenth one though? It more than makes up for the 9 that went well.

I don't write gun trusts, so this isn't a matter in which I have a direct monetary interest. However, if it's smart to have an attorney review your home purchase contract or draft the documents for your business formation, where mostly what you have to lose is just money, doesn't it make sense to talk to an attorney about a matter that could conceivably expose you to an even greater loss?

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnbwt

"They both laughed when I asked about a NFA trust and said its straight forward and everyone makes a big deal out of them when there's nothing to it."
Exactly. By all accounts, it sounds like a given lawyer will develop a form document applicable to each state's laws (likely using existing recipes), and duplicate it for each customer. Perhaps some truly 'tailor' the things to individual situations, but from the dozen or so trust documents I've read, they look very similar to one another. Much like actual tailoring, I think this approach is likely unneeded for most of the population without odd circumstances, and is mostly cost-padding.

From the home improvement programs I've seen, plumbing and wiring all look about the same. That's why you don't want me doing your plumbing and wiring.

Mobuck · July 13, 2015, 05:40 PM

What's the big deal? All a trust does is identify the location and responsible parties. The rest is the same for each one.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 13, 2015, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobuck

What's the big deal? All a trust does is identify the location and responsible parties. The rest is the same for each one.

No, that's not the case. A trust is an interest in property. The person creating the trust places property under the power of a trustee so that it can eventually be given to the beneficiary at some future time. The trust doesn't just tell you who each of these parties are and tell you where the property is located. It decides what powers the trustee will have, whether it is testamentary or living, whether it is irrevocable or revocable, how decisions are made regarding trust property, etc. etc.

Trusts are also not all identical. Even the generic form trusts are different depending on what company drafted them. I doubt any of the trusts I've drafted are identical - everybody has their own important change they want to make.

sfwusc · July 13, 2015, 08:15 PM

Not an attorney and know very little about nfa items. But why not just use a LLC?

zukiphile · July 13, 2015, 08:24 PM

In many states that will be more expensive. If memory serves, the filing fees in TX are nearly $800.

sfwusc · July 13, 2015, 09:25 PM

In sc that fee is 110 and the paperwork isn't hard.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 13, 2015, 10:23 PM

You can use an LLC; but in Texas anyway, they have several drawbacks.

1) You have to pay a filing fee of $300 to the state on top of any legal fees
2) Your Articles of Incorporation are a matter of public record and are accessible online (along with your address unless you pay more money annually for a Registered Agent).
3) You have to report sales tax quarterly and franchise tax annually, even if you have no income. Failing to report this in a timely manner results in fines and eventually dissolution of the LLC.

So if you already have an LLC and have to do this anyway, it can be an option. It is usually less than ideal for individuals compared to a trust though.

zukiphile · July 14, 2015, 06:24 AM

Bart, I formed an LLC in TX last fall and I recall the fee to the Sec of State being $750, plus 2% for the convenience of using my AMEX, plus a dollar to check to see whether it conflicted with any other names. At every turn, TX seemed to have its figurative hand outstretched.

Some states have a substantial fee of one sort or another each year.

Ohio's SOS only charges $125 to file the articles, but they like to semi-randomly impute sales if you don't file a sales tax return, then attach your assets for the tax deficiency.

SFWUSC, LLCs are really set up for doing business. It will not typically be a money saver over a trust.

TMD · July 14, 2015, 06:32 AM

Spend hundreds if you want but it's a waste of money. I did my trust through The Silencer Shop for only $129 and to date used it for both a form 1 and 4. Both got approved the first time being submitted without issue.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 14, 2015, 07:31 AM

Zukiphile, I'm guessing you formed a PLLC or PC? That's a $750 fee. The fee for an LLC, C-Corp or S-Corp is $300 still (unless you filed as a foreign entity).

TMO, in Texas, you could have had a lawyer draft a trust for you for $21 more than you paid for the SilencerCo trust. So even at a minimum, assuming the Silencerco trust was every bit as good for you as a low-end lawyer trust - you'd have a licensed attorney you could ask questions and get advice from for an extra $21.

February 12, 2015, 12:04 AM	#1
Coach Z Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2011 Location: RI Posts: 795	Silencerco now offering trusts Got an email newsletter including a link that they are now offering trusts. The price is really good (especially compared to the $700 I paid!) It obvosiouly helps their business a lot but I think it's great that they are making it easier to access the NFA for people who are hesitant or not as up on what it takes to purchase an NFA item. http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/c...psa3e9bd01.jpg Edit, auto correct removed the "co" from Silencerco 2nd edit to correct pic __________________ Love my guns Last edited by Spats McGee; February 12, 2015 at 10:03 AM.

February 12, 2015, 02:19 AM	#2
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	Did you mean SilencerCo is offering trusts? __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume."

February 12, 2015, 09:20 AM	#3
Coach Z Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2011 Location: RI Posts: 795	I did, edited to correct. Also trying to figure out why picture not posting correctly __________________ Love my guns

February 12, 2015, 02:19 PM	#6
Coach Z Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2011 Location: RI Posts: 795	I went through the process out of curiosity and it does ask exactly what state and county / parish / borough you live in. It looks like they have done their homework but as always YMMV __________________ Love my guns

July 11, 2015, 09:27 AM	#12
barnbwt Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2012 Posts: 1,085	I'd only be interested in paying out the wazoo for a lawyer's drafted trust, if; -It isn't simply a copy of the same trust he gives everyone (and let's not pretend a lot don't do exactly this) -It isn't a copy of someone else's trust, or a free trust, passed off as his own -It has actually survived documented probate or legal scrutiny (probate/inheritance are really the more pressing concern, but good luck finding proof your guys' silver words have stood up in court) Absent those things, I'm just not sure what a popularly-vetted (where many other folks have been Guinea pig before you) publicly available trust format has to offer, assuming you are smart/diligent enough to read through the thing and make sure it is applicable to your own situation (and doesn't leave your possessions to the estate of some internet guy on the other side of the country) "They both laughed when I asked about a NFA trust and said its straight forward and everyone makes a big deal out of them when there's nothing to it." Exactly. By all accounts, it sounds like a given lawyer will develop a form document applicable to each state's laws (likely using existing recipes), and duplicate it for each customer. Perhaps some truly 'tailor' the things to individual situations, but from the dozen or so trust documents I've read, they look very similar to one another. Much like actual tailoring, I think this approach is likely unneeded for most of the population without odd circumstances, and is mostly cost-padding. TCB __________________ "I don't believe that the men of the distant past were any wiser than we are today. But it does seem that their science and technology were able to accomplish much grander things." -- Alex Rosewater

February 12, 2015, 10:13 AM	#4
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	I'd be careful with that. First, if silencerco doesn't have a lawyer on staff, or at least get that done by a lawyer, they could end up being charged with practicing law without a license. Second, there is some variance from state to state about what constitutes a viable trust in that state. This is why it's mostly not recommended to use programs like quicken, as it's too general. Unless it's been approved in every state, you could end up with a non viable trust, and that would create a problem.

February 12, 2015, 10:17 AM	#5
Gunfixr Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2007 Location: East Coast, USA Posts: 360	I know everybody gripes about paying a lawyer to do a gun trust, hell, I refused to pay the first guy $750, and found one cheaper. But, think of it this way: how expensive is it to pay a lawyer per day of defense in federal court because you loaded up a non viable trust with nfa items?

March 20, 2015, 07:25 PM	#7
eldorendo Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2012 Posts: 239	SEG offers an NFA trust for $50_ Don't know if they have attorney on staff or not.

March 22, 2015, 07:53 PM	#8
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	The price one pays for a very good attorney with experience in drafting a gun trust specific to your situation and state is well worth it. I spoke with three attorneys that supposedly had experience only to find out they maybe drafted one or two trusts a year. Also, their prices were a cheaper than most. Upon asking them the same questions, I found they all answered with conflicting information. In short, they were not experienced! You get what you pay for.. Price should not be an issue, quality of the trust in your situation should be the focus. Do you go to the cheapest doctor for medical advice? Perhaps, WebMD gives you enough information to treat any and all illnesses. Really!?! For me, I wanted a bullet proof trust that worked for my situation. Any price I pay now would be small as compared with defending any legal issues later.....for myself or family members that may be possession of Title II device. I chose an irrevocable NFA Trust drafted by David Goldman, http://www.guntrustlawyer.com.

April 18, 2015, 07:48 PM	#9
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	I am lucky enough to have a best friend that is an attorney and I shoot trap with him and his boss (the owning partner in the firm) on a regular basis. They both laughed when I asked about a NFA trust and said its straight forward and everyone makes a big deal out of them when there's nothing to it. I have a trust done by them that was free, and a few other of my co-workers and friends used the same trust and own multiple NFA items. I agree to generally use a Lawyer, but everyone makes a big stink out of it, and lawyers are trying to charge way more than they should for it. Do whatever makes you happy, but really they are not as complicated as a lot of people try to make you believe. Silencerco is one of the industry leaders, I would bet BIG money their trusts are bulletproof and created by a lawyer, there is too much liability on their part not to.

July 11, 2015, 01:12 AM	#10
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	Silencerco trusts are not getting a good review. Here is one review which highlights some problems .... https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2015/...w-seminar.html Here is another link about DIY trusts.... http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...s-law-seminar/ To each their own....

July 11, 2015, 01:00 PM	#14
CodeSection Member Join Date: October 31, 2014 Posts: 86	Very good discussion and Bart.., thank you taking the time to go over the various trusts and trying to educate the differences. I guess people get what they pay for. My NFA trust was prepared and tailored to my and my family needs. It was a process and took a couple of weeks to iron out all the details. It ended being 64 pages long. No 1-2 page or 10-12 page generic trust would have been suitable in my situation. Bart... I hope you do not mind me pasting the link below where you wrote more about NFA trusts in an attempt to help educate. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=527153 Last edited by CodeSection; July 11, 2015 at 01:42 PM.

July 11, 2015, 02:40 PM	#15
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Not a problem. I don't make any money directly from trusts as I only do them for clients, friends and other people I know personally. However, there is just a huge, huge knowledge gap between most consumers and the attorneys selling these trusts. I think a more educated client base is a good deal for everyone but the few unethical types, so I like to help with that to the extent I can without putting myself in an awkward position.

July 13, 2015, 05:40 PM	#17
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	What's the big deal? All a trust does is identify the location and responsible parties. The rest is the same for each one.

July 13, 2015, 08:15 PM	#19
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	Not an attorney and know very little about nfa items. But why not just use a LLC?

July 13, 2015, 08:24 PM	#20
zukiphile Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2005 Posts: 4,454	In many states that will be more expensive. If memory serves, the filing fees in TX are nearly $800. __________________ http://www.npboards.com/index.php

July 13, 2015, 09:25 PM	#21
sfwusc Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2013 Posts: 231	In sc that fee is 110 and the paperwork isn't hard.

July 13, 2015, 10:23 PM	#22
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	You can use an LLC; but in Texas anyway, they have several drawbacks. 1) You have to pay a filing fee of $300 to the state on top of any legal fees 2) Your Articles of Incorporation are a matter of public record and are accessible online (along with your address unless you pay more money annually for a Registered Agent). 3) You have to report sales tax quarterly and franchise tax annually, even if you have no income. Failing to report this in a timely manner results in fines and eventually dissolution of the LLC. So if you already have an LLC and have to do this anyway, it can be an option. It is usually less than ideal for individuals compared to a trust though.

July 14, 2015, 06:24 AM	#23
zukiphile Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2005 Posts: 4,454	Bart, I formed an LLC in TX last fall and I recall the fee to the Sec of State being $750, plus 2% for the convenience of using my AMEX, plus a dollar to check to see whether it conflicted with any other names. At every turn, TX seemed to have its figurative hand outstretched. Some states have a substantial fee of one sort or another each year. Ohio's SOS only charges $125 to file the articles, but they like to semi-randomly impute sales if you don't file a sales tax return, then attach your assets for the tax deficiency. SFWUSC, LLCs are really set up for doing business. It will not typically be a money saver over a trust. __________________ http://www.npboards.com/index.php

July 14, 2015, 06:32 AM	#24
TMD Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2011 Posts: 1,293	Spend hundreds if you want but it's a waste of money. I did my trust through The Silencer Shop for only $129 and to date used it for both a form 1 and 4. Both got approved the first time being submitted without issue.

July 14, 2015, 07:31 AM	#25
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Zukiphile, I'm guessing you formed a PLLC or PC? That's a $750 fee. The fee for an LLC, C-Corp or S-Corp is $300 still (unless you filed as a foreign entity). TMO, in Texas, you could have had a lawyer draft a trust for you for $21 more than you paid for the SilencerCo trust. So even at a minimum, assuming the Silencerco trust was every bit as good for you as a low-end lawyer trust - you'd have a licensed attorney you could ask questions and get advice from for an extra $21.