FN Five-seveN

[Christian5]

I was recently browsing the web for new and interesting firearms (as I often do) when I came across the FN Herstal Five seveN pistol. This is a service pistol that shoots FN's NATO recommended 5.27x28mm round.

Here's the link
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/model.asp?fid=FNF003&gid=FNG001&mid=FNM0004[/URL]

Has anyone shot this handgun before?
What are your opinions on a handgun shooting this sub-machine gun round (fired in P90s)? According to your personal preference, would you consider it for a CCW?

[osageid]

I know of several people who have shot the gun and love it! Low recoil and incredible accuracy, pistol itself kinda big for CCW though ! I want one to just to have!

[jmortimer]

It is "enough" gun for CCW. It has a lot of firepower and adequate terminal ballistics.

[PSP]

According to your personal preference, would you consider it for a CCW?

No, because it is a fairly large, duty sized pistol, I wouldn't use it as a CCW. Otherwise the gun has so many good qualities, reliable, lightweight, low recoil, easy to shoot well and is a hoot to shoot.

My personal preference runs to smaller, easier to conceal pistols, such as the Kahr P9.

[RT]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913

" FN 5.7 x 28 mm
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: “Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: “Personal Defense Weapons—Answer in Search of a Question”, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: “Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant”, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body. As with any penetrating projectile, if either a 9 mm or 5.7 mm bullet is ideally placed to cause significant damage to the CNS or major cardiovascular organs, a fatal result is likely.

The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line—what does the P90 offer that is not already available? "

[PSP]

The other side of the coin...

The 5.7x28 shooting results we're aware of so far are promising. I will try to tune you in on some accounts..


- The Lima, Peru siege (known as Chavin de Huantar, see here for some more info on the operation itself) occurred in 1997 when a number of terrorists took over the Japanese embassy in Peru. The Peruvian CTs were carrying suppressed P90s. In the siege, two terrorists were killed with one 5.7 round each, and a third with two rounds. All of these subjects were wearing Level IIIA vests. One of the terrorists killed with one round was the leader of the group who died instantly upon being shot. The SS190 was the round used in this incident.

- Grand Forks, North Dakota SWAT had a shooting (the first ever with 5.7x28 in the US) with their P90s in 2000 that resulted in a near-instant fatality. Unfortunately, those are the only details from the shooting that I have been able to find.

- The shooting in Texas was the Houston, Texas SWAT team; it occurred in spring of 2003. A subject wearing heavy clothing was firing at HPD with an AR15, and he was hit with a burst from the P90, dying (by all accounts) instantly. Supposedly "the coroner remarked he had never seen a wound like it". These are comments on the incident from people from or in contact with HPD. Here are some comments on the shooting from Sandy Wall of Houston PD: "The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either."

- Birmingham, Alabama SWAT had a shooting in mid-2004 with the P90. Here is a news article on this one with a bit of info on the situation.

- Doraville, Georgia PD had a shooting with the SS190 (most likely from the Five-seveN pistol, although Doraville does use the P90), resulting in a fatality from a neck shot. The subject's spine was severed but the round did not exit his neck. Another shooting, with Duluth, Georgia PD resulted in the subject being struck in the head with an SS190 out of a Five-seveN. It is true that both of these cases involved outstanding shot placement. However, it might be worth noting firstly that the rounds did not exit in either of these cases, and yet they did seem to do the job as well or better than other pistol calibers would have. Secondly, this outstanding shot placement could easily be attributed to the very low recoil and shootability of the 5.7x28 weapons.

- Sioux Falls, South Dakota SWAT shot a subject "in the hand and arm through a solid core door". He lost two fingers off his gun hand and the bone in his arm was shattered. After passing through the door, the round began to go into tumble and struck his arm flat, powdering the bone within. AFAIK this was the first shooting with 5.7x28 where the victim survived.

- I am also aware of a security firm working in Iraq that issues both the P90 and Five-seveN, and has shot multiple subjects with them. To quote a first-hand witness: "I have seen 5 people who were shot by the 5.7, all by some KBR security guys in Iraq. Three by P90, and two mixed P90, 5.7, and M4. All were DRT, going down almost instantly from the hits, and bleeding out right there."

- Here is a post over on another forum with an account from Iraq. It could be considered a bit shaky but I will hold back no info on the subject.

- Jacksonville, FL SWAT has been using the P90 for several years now and to date has shot three subjects with it. According to statements made by one Jacksonville officer, these subjects were shot several times; some may attempt to use these case(s) against the 5.7x28, but we still don't know the hit locations in any of these shootings.

- I am aware of another recent (fatal) case in Austin, TX where a man was shot once in the heart (bullet entered above the right nipple and exited under the left shoulder blade) with a civilian round (of unknown type, possibly SS197) out of the Five-seveN pistol. A first-hand witness described the wound cavity damage as minimal; coupled with the claim that this round exited the body (this is the first case I'm aware of where a 5.7x28 round exited the torso of the victim) and "blew a heck of a divot from the concrete wall [behind the victim]", I'm assuming this was an SS195/SS197 that kept going and possibly failed to expand/yaw. Regardless, the bullet still got the job done, demonstrating once again that shot placement is everything.

http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1442

Swat units as well as SF units around the world use the 5.7 FN weapons. They see some value in the round.

[jmortimer]

The islamic terrorist in the Ft. Hood shooting used one as well. It will kill you. Ballistics are similar to .22 mag. out of a rifle compared to the FN in a pistol. I know what a .22 mag from a rifle will do and for sure it will kill a man
Brass Fetcher for Civilian ammunition http://www.brassfetcher.com/SS195%20...clothing).html
And .22 mag rifle from Brassfetcher http://www.brassfetcher.com/22MagnumVariousRifle.html As indicated the 40 grain HP Winchester is the best choice.

[rdmallory]

I own one and shoot it about ever week. But I do not use it for CCW due to it's size. It is a hoot to shoot on the steel popups.

Ammo is about $19 a box of 50 here so it is not real cheep unless you want to tackle a difficult reload.

I am still experimenting with loads trying to get one that is as accurate as my old S&W 66-2.

Doug

[kinoons]

What's even more interesting about the 5.7x28 is the factory loaded ammo isn't as good as it could be. Some small ammo loaders seem to have squeezed a lot more performance out of the small package. For example:

Www.eliteammunition.com

[sigxder]

They are allot of fun to shoot. Very flat trajectory makes for easy hits at 15 out to 50+ yards. Low recoil, lots of rounds. Having said that I don't think their is anyway a polymer gun should cost a grand. Ammo isn't cheap either.