Charge help with 9mm..confused HELP!!

Fusternc · December 12, 1999, 11:20 PM

I have just begun reloading for my 9mm a Sig P226. With the 1st batch, I had 2-3 failures to extract per magazine. Happened with all mags used. I also was unable to get the slide to lock back with the last round fired. With factory ammo, this has NEVER been a problem. I started rethinking my charge, and after looking at the Hornady manual for the charge needed for a 115gr FMJ, they recommend a range from 4.7grains of Unique to a DO NOT EXCEED of 5.1 grains. Well, I also looked at the Lee paperwork that came with my carbide die set, and it has a starting grain of 5.8 grains and a DO NOT EXCEED of 6.1 grains!!! So, which is correct the LEE paperwork OR Hornady? I used 4.9 grains for my 1st batch based on my Hornady reference, but it seemed kinda "weak" in the recoil area, and in its ability to lock slide back and eject rounds correctly. Can someone give me another beginning and NEVER exceed range for the following round info:

9mm Luger
115gr FMJ
Unique powder
CCI primers

The 4.9 grains I used filled about 85-90 % of the case capacity. I can't imagine how 5.8 grains would fit..much less the 6.1grains.

Any other references, Speer, etc is most appreciated!

Nathan

**Mal H** · December 13, 1999, 01:41 AM

FWIW, I have found some data in the Hornady manual to be highly questionable. I checked several manuals and found the Lee data to be more in line with them. Speer listed the Unique range as 5.6 to 6.3 gr for a 115 JHP. Sierra lists the range as 5.0 to 6.4 for a 115 FMJ.

Your best bet is to go straight to Alliant for the best info:
www.alliantpowder.com

Bill Hebert · December 13, 1999, 03:11 PM

I started reloading with Hodgedon powder, have had good results using the Lee recommendations for the 9mm, and have never had a failure to extract in my Glock 17. I do not like to "beat up" my guns with maximum loads - but some folks are always "pushing the limits." It's not unusual for different manufacturers to have different "recommendations" especially in today's sue-happy times. Some powders have small safety ranges from minimum to "do not exceed"
limits. Other powders have much greater ranges. Be careful - when you seat the bullet you can compress the powder if the load is not "right." This is unsafe. If your load does not cycle your pistol reliably and you can't get a load from that powder that's well within the "do not exceed load" then I'd suggest trying a different powder (Hodgedon.)
Bumping the load by 0.1 grain can make a big difference in an auto pistol. Start from the
"starting load" in the Lee Loading manual and
up the loads by 1/10 grain until you get good results. Do not go below the Minimum Overall Length for the round as this can cause problems also. Hope this helps. Bill

TacTrain · December 13, 1999, 09:35 PM

Fusternc, mu Sierra manual list the following:

9mm Luger
115 gr. JHP or FMJ
OAL: 1.015" and 1.090" respectfully
Unique minimum load 5.0 grains
Unique maximum load 6.4 grains
Accuracy load was Unique 5.6 grains

Best Regards.....
"Train to Defend, Train to Survive, Train to Win"

Fusternc · December 13, 1999, 09:48 PM

Thanks for the help guys! It looks like the Hornady manuals are way off with a max recommendation of 5.1grains for Unique. Hopefully 5.4grains will do the trick.

Regards,
Nathan..

CCV · January 2, 2000, 08:17 PM

If that doesn't work try 4.5 grains of TiteGroup with your 115 grain bullet. This isn't a maximum load but it has cycled every 9MM pistol I have tried it in. It's accurate too!

Dave Finfrock · January 2, 2000, 08:57 PM

9mmP is VERY sensitive to overall length. I use a similar load to yours. A Sierra 115gr JHP and 5.3gr. Unique. OL= 1.100". This load averages 1185fps from a P7M13.

Reloading story:

When I first started reloading 9mm, we always seated the bullets all the way out. It was 1.24" or something similar. We were using a 115gr FMJ bullet and 5.6gr. AA#5. Velocity SHOULD have been around 1150. Well, the load wouldn't cycle the gun (P7M13). So, up to max, 5.8gr. Still wouldn't reliably cycle. About this time, we chrono'd the load. What should have been a 1200fps load, was running 750fps or a bit less. No wonder the P7 wouldn't cycle. We started seating the bullets deeper. Velocity came up with every .010" deeper. At 1.1", we were seeing in the neighborhood of 1200fps. Like I said, very sensitive to seating depth.

labgrade · January 2, 2000, 09:11 PM

Coupla things you may never consider if you're new to reloading.

One is that the "115gr JHP" is whatever bullet they used to come up with that specific loading. They may have used a Hornady, Sierra, Winchester, etc. ... you get the idea. Each have a bit different bearing surface, jacket hardness, whatever & too, the barrels used do have varying characteristics which matters greatly in developing loads.

That's why EVERYBODY'S loading manuals state that you should start at (max) 10% below max & work up to whatever works in your particular firearm. Your favorite load, that cycles & is so accurate in yours, may show big-time pressure signs in mine or mine may not cycle at all, etc.

Too, are you using a TAPER CRIMP die in your seating for 9mm? Some die sets come with the roll crimp which is not the one to use with the 9mm (semi-auto, although it doesn't matter for a revolver) as it head-spaces off the front of the brass. Do check just for grins. A very minimal variance with a roll crimp could really trash any load development you do for an auto.

Set your taper crimp so that it just holds the bullet enough so that if you manually push a loaded bullet against your loading bench (& pretty hard), it won't move. Measure before & after with a caliper (to the .001"). 9's are very sensitive and just a few .001"s of bullet set-back in feeding can cause pretty drastic upwards internal pressures.

jtduncan · January 5, 2000, 11:24 AM

Why shoot hot loads unless you're going to shoot IPSC?

All you'll do is beat up your guns and risk a kaboom.

Don't.

I shoot below the suggested starting loads with Titegroup and my accuracy and reliability is great.

2 inch groups out to 50 feet. 3 inch groups at 75 feet and this is at 4.2 grains when the suggested starting point is 4.4 grains of Titegroup.

I've shot the load through glocks, sigs, hkp7s and they've eaten it up. They cycled it like champs. The P7 was stacking shots like a catapillar (sp?)at 25-40 feet.

Start at the minimum load and move it up or down a tenth of a grain to see how accuracy and action are affected.

------------------
The Seattle SharpShooter
If it can't shoot jacketed rat turds powered by mouse farts, I ain't gonna shoot it!

[This message has been edited by jtduncan (edited January 05, 2000).]

Dave Finfrock · January 5, 2000, 01:05 PM

Those aren't really hot load. Believe me, 9mm has a lot more in it than that! Some of the things we used to shoot through HK P9Ss and Steyr GBs were way and beyond this (these guns have fully supported chambers). I like the loads I shoot out of the gun to be as close to the factory ammo I favor as possible, with the least hassle to reload as possble. In 9mmP, this is around 1200fps, give or take a bit. As long as you carefully watch OAL, these loads meet all those criteria without treading too close to the edge. We also shoot pistols quite a bit at 100yds, so a flat trajectory is a Good Thing.

alan · January 5, 2000, 01:42 PM

Fusternc:

From what you describe, sounds like not enough recoil energy (to light a load for YOUR pistol). Any given load could be to hot for some, o.k. in another.

I load 9mm luger in a couple of pistols, lead not jacketed. 125 grain, .357" nom. dia. with 5.9 grains Accurate #5. Looks like, according to their book. close to 1100 ft/sec. OAL 1.165. Do not roll crimp, taper crimp enough so that bullet does not push back into case when stripped out of the magazine.

Thought I saw someone mention "Major Caliber" as in IPSC. 9mm Luger is not "legal" as a "major" caliber in IPSC. It isn't safe, or so the thinking goes. I shoot it as "minor", works fine that way.

December 12, 1999, 11:20 PM	#1
Fusternc Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 113	I have just begun reloading for my 9mm a Sig P226. With the 1st batch, I had 2-3 failures to extract per magazine. Happened with all mags used. I also was unable to get the slide to lock back with the last round fired. With factory ammo, this has NEVER been a problem. I started rethinking my charge, and after looking at the Hornady manual for the charge needed for a 115gr FMJ, they recommend a range from 4.7grains of Unique to a DO NOT EXCEED of 5.1 grains. Well, I also looked at the Lee paperwork that came with my carbide die set, and it has a starting grain of 5.8 grains and a DO NOT EXCEED of 6.1 grains!!! So, which is correct the LEE paperwork OR Hornady? I used 4.9 grains for my 1st batch based on my Hornady reference, but it seemed kinda "weak" in the recoil area, and in its ability to lock slide back and eject rounds correctly. Can someone give me another beginning and NEVER exceed range for the following round info: 9mm Luger 115gr FMJ Unique powder CCI primers The 4.9 grains I used filled about 85-90 % of the case capacity. I can't imagine how 5.8 grains would fit..much less the 6.1grains. Any other references, Speer, etc is most appreciated! Nathan

December 13, 1999, 01:41 AM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,947	FWIW, I have found some data in the Hornady manual to be highly questionable. I checked several manuals and found the Lee data to be more in line with them. Speer listed the Unique range as 5.6 to 6.3 gr for a 115 JHP. Sierra lists the range as 5.0 to 6.4 for a 115 FMJ. Your best bet is to go straight to Alliant for the best info: www.alliantpowder.com

December 13, 1999, 03:11 PM	#3
Bill Hebert Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 1999 Posts: 180	I started reloading with Hodgedon powder, have had good results using the Lee recommendations for the 9mm, and have never had a failure to extract in my Glock 17. I do not like to "beat up" my guns with maximum loads - but some folks are always "pushing the limits." It's not unusual for different manufacturers to have different "recommendations" especially in today's sue-happy times. Some powders have small safety ranges from minimum to "do not exceed" limits. Other powders have much greater ranges. Be careful - when you seat the bullet you can compress the powder if the load is not "right." This is unsafe. If your load does not cycle your pistol reliably and you can't get a load from that powder that's well within the "do not exceed load" then I'd suggest trying a different powder (Hodgedon.) Bumping the load by 0.1 grain can make a big difference in an auto pistol. Start from the "starting load" in the Lee Loading manual and up the loads by 1/10 grain until you get good results. Do not go below the Minimum Overall Length for the round as this can cause problems also. Hope this helps. Bill

December 13, 1999, 09:35 PM	#4
TacTrain Member Join Date: November 8, 1999 Location: Phoenix, Arizona USA Posts: 53	Fusternc, mu Sierra manual list the following: 9mm Luger 115 gr. JHP or FMJ OAL: 1.015" and 1.090" respectfully Unique minimum load 5.0 grains Unique maximum load 6.4 grains Accuracy load was Unique 5.6 grains Best Regards..... "Train to Defend, Train to Survive, Train to Win"

December 13, 1999, 09:48 PM	#5
Fusternc Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 1999 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 113	Thanks for the help guys! It looks like the Hornady manuals are way off with a max recommendation of 5.1grains for Unique. Hopefully 5.4grains will do the trick. Regards, Nathan..

January 2, 2000, 08:17 PM	#6
CCV Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 128	If that doesn't work try 4.5 grains of TiteGroup with your 115 grain bullet. This isn't a maximum load but it has cycled every 9MM pistol I have tried it in. It's accurate too!

January 2, 2000, 08:57 PM	#7
Dave Finfrock Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Posts: 210	9mmP is VERY sensitive to overall length. I use a similar load to yours. A Sierra 115gr JHP and 5.3gr. Unique. OL= 1.100". This load averages 1185fps from a P7M13. Reloading story: When I first started reloading 9mm, we always seated the bullets all the way out. It was 1.24" or something similar. We were using a 115gr FMJ bullet and 5.6gr. AA#5. Velocity SHOULD have been around 1150. Well, the load wouldn't cycle the gun (P7M13). So, up to max, 5.8gr. Still wouldn't reliably cycle. About this time, we chrono'd the load. What should have been a 1200fps load, was running 750fps or a bit less. No wonder the P7 wouldn't cycle. We started seating the bullets deeper. Velocity came up with every .010" deeper. At 1.1", we were seeing in the neighborhood of 1200fps. Like I said, very sensitive to seating depth.

January 2, 2000, 09:11 PM	#8
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Coupla things you may never consider if you're new to reloading. One is that the "115gr JHP" is whatever bullet they used to come up with that specific loading. They may have used a Hornady, Sierra, Winchester, etc. ... you get the idea. Each have a bit different bearing surface, jacket hardness, whatever & too, the barrels used do have varying characteristics which matters greatly in developing loads. That's why EVERYBODY'S loading manuals state that you should start at (max) 10% below max & work up to whatever works in your particular firearm. Your favorite load, that cycles & is so accurate in yours, may show big-time pressure signs in mine or mine may not cycle at all, etc. Too, are you using a TAPER CRIMP die in your seating for 9mm? Some die sets come with the roll crimp which is not the one to use with the 9mm (semi-auto, although it doesn't matter for a revolver) as it head-spaces off the front of the brass. Do check just for grins. A very minimal variance with a roll crimp could really trash any load development you do for an auto. Set your taper crimp so that it just holds the bullet enough so that if you manually push a loaded bullet against your loading bench (& pretty hard), it won't move. Measure before & after with a caliper (to the .001"). 9's are very sensitive and just a few .001"s of bullet set-back in feeding can cause pretty drastic upwards internal pressures.

January 5, 2000, 11:24 AM	#9
jtduncan Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 1999 Location: Seattle, Washington, USA Posts: 1,686	Why shoot hot loads unless you're going to shoot IPSC? All you'll do is beat up your guns and risk a kaboom. Don't. I shoot below the suggested starting loads with Titegroup and my accuracy and reliability is great. 2 inch groups out to 50 feet. 3 inch groups at 75 feet and this is at 4.2 grains when the suggested starting point is 4.4 grains of Titegroup. I've shot the load through glocks, sigs, hkp7s and they've eaten it up. They cycled it like champs. The P7 was stacking shots like a catapillar (sp?)at 25-40 feet. Start at the minimum load and move it up or down a tenth of a grain to see how accuracy and action are affected. ------------------ *The Seattle SharpShooter* If it can't shoot jacketed rat turds powered by mouse farts, I ain't gonna shoot it! [This message has been edited by jtduncan (edited January 05, 2000).]

January 5, 2000, 01:05 PM	#10
Dave Finfrock Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 1999 Posts: 210	Those aren't really hot load. Believe me, 9mm has a lot more in it than that! Some of the things we used to shoot through HK P9Ss and Steyr GBs were way and beyond this (these guns have fully supported chambers). I like the loads I shoot out of the gun to be as close to the factory ammo I favor as possible, with the least hassle to reload as possble. In 9mmP, this is around 1200fps, give or take a bit. As long as you carefully watch OAL, these loads meet all those criteria without treading too close to the edge. We also shoot pistols quite a bit at 100yds, so a flat trajectory is a Good Thing.

January 5, 2000, 01:42 PM	#11
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Fusternc: From what you describe, sounds like not enough recoil energy (to light a load for YOUR pistol). Any given load could be to hot for some, o.k. in another. I load 9mm luger in a couple of pistols, lead not jacketed. 125 grain, .357" nom. dia. with 5.9 grains Accurate #5. Looks like, according to their book. close to 1100 ft/sec. OAL 1.165. Do not roll crimp, taper crimp enough so that bullet does not push back into case when stripped out of the magazine. Thought I saw someone mention "Major Caliber" as in IPSC. 9mm Luger is not "legal" as a "major" caliber in IPSC. It isn't safe, or so the thinking goes. I shoot it as "minor", works fine that way.