Why all the hate? The IPSC/IDPA debate

[jtkwon]

Or mine is bigger and fatter than yours...

[Jeff22]

I've been shooting IPSC at the local level since 1978 and IDPA since 2001.

In our area (central Wisconsin) we see a fair amount of shooters who compete happily in both disciplines.

I think the best thing USPSA ever did was (finally!) create the PRODUCTION class so that shooters with relatively stock equipment can compete against others with comparable gear. I'm a cop and I shoot my issue SIG 226 in both USPSA Production Class and IDPA Stock Service Pistol Class (when my schedule allows to get to a match). USPSA badly needed an entry level class where beginners or the more "practically" oriented can compete on an even playing field.

The IDPA shooters I know who have gone on to try IPSC have enjoyed it, and the reverse is also true. I suspect the shooters who are very focused on competition will stick to IPSC.

The biggest perceptual problem that most shooters who are unfamiliar has about IPSC is that it requires an expensive scoped handgun in some weird caliber to be competitive. Once people discover that is no longer true, they tend to become more interested.

[IronLance]

When I used to live in South Dakota I was a member of a pistol club that held action matches each month. One of our officers was an IPSC shooter who attended at least one IPSC match a month if his schedule permitted. He had his Gee-Whiz 2000 Race Gun all set-up the way he liked and he was very good with it. Would anyone care to guess why he was good at it?

Practice Practice Practice Every spare moment that he was not at a match, at work, or on a Honey-Do assignment, he was either reloading or shooting. He didn't win because of the G-W 2K RG, he won because he practiced all the drills all the time.

One year he mentioned that he averaged nearly a thousand rounds a week in practice alone. I'm fairly certain that's what you're going to find in any sport, the top people are always practicing their craft.

It's not going to be any different whether you're an IPSC shooter, IDPA shooter, NRA High Power shooter, etc. If you're not practicing, you're playing.

Me? I shoot too many things to spend all my money on just one aspect of the shooting sports, so I'm just playing. And you know what? I'm having a blast, thank you very much.

[bulm5]

Ditto on that one.

[the duck of death]

I shoot 3 matches a month, IDPA/USPSA/CAS. Keeping all the rules straight---will make your head spin. Too busy shooting to bitch.

[ryucasta]

I wholeheartedly agree with Faustalus earlier post

"I find it to be the opposite, if anything there predisposition by IDPA shooters to hate IPSC more so than the reverse."

It's has been my experience here in California is that most IDPA only competitors initially tend to have very strong feelings against USPSA/IPSC but once those that individuals have been competing in IDPA for a while they tend to make the crossover and end up competing in both sports.

[Helmut]

IDPA = Profit Organization

USPSA = NON-Profit Organization

I prefer 3-Gun personally (Tactical 3-gun)

[Jeeper]

I think that it is really funny there is animosity between the two. At the nationals, the same guys win both(ie Rob, Matt B., Dave S,) If that doesnt show the similarity then what else does?

[Charlie Golf]

like 9mm vs. .45

So is the .40S&W a "Dodge?"

[wayneinFL]

I've been shooting IPSC a few years and decided to try a few IDPA matches recently.

People told me whatever you do, don't tell them you shoot IPSC. I saw people posting on the internet like there was some kind of animosity against IPSC by IDPA. From the sound of it, I was going to drop a mag on the ground be found out and burned as a heretic.

I shot IDPA and barely heard a word about IPSC.

A few people seem to think IDPA is more about personal defense, is more "tactically correct" or something like that, but I never met one of those people in person; they're all on the internet, and they're wrong.

The only differences I saw were shorter, simpler, closer stages, and those danged tactical reloads. Nobody was shooting at me, or chasing me with a knife, and I had fun, so IDPA must be a game too.

The club I was shooting IDPA with did a lot of kneeling and going prone and crawling around with a gun- which I have fun with. Which reminds me... I need to go ahead and join so I can shoot more. (If it wasn't 80 miles away I'd have joined already.)

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Like others, I shoot both, when I can. My mentality is that I am working on my own skills, and that I am competing against no one but myself and my ability to learn and absorb.

I believe the schism dates back to the days when the tricked out guns and the racing mentality 'took over'. To Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn and others who founded both IPSC & IDPA, the realism was losing out. That's when they decided to form the IDPA and get back to self-defense realism.

Some time later, the IPSC (USPSA) tried to win back many of those shooters by opening up new chances for production gun shooters to find a home with the USPSA. I believe that is roughly where we are today.

So, from my perspective, when I hear negative things said one way or the other about either of the two, I only respond by asking "Who cares about the politics? How soon can we SHOOT?". The more trigger time, the better.

[ted murphy]

Too frigging funny, the whole "profit is evil" thing.

They did not want open elections, thus they had to go to a for profit setup. Not for profit corps have to be structured with elections and various failsafes. It doesn't mean that the guys at USPSA are somehow more moral because they are not for profit- it's a managarial and tax decision.

Believe me, the staff at USPSA isn't starving and USPSA has quite a nice nest egg put aside. And there isn't a darn thing wrong with that.

Problem with the 2 shooting sports debate is some people get religion and thing their respect to their favorite sport and will try like heck to make the other one look bad at any turn.

I've seen USPSA shooters lie their butt off to try and get an IDPA club at the same range banned and I've seen IDPA shooters talk so much dirt about USPSA to its potential new shooters it is saddening. The fact though is that the majority of the lovers of both sports have nothing but respect for the other. It's the few loud dirtbags in both camps that make it look like there is a feud.

Shot a USPSA match today. at the end of the match briefing the MD asked me to make any appropriate IDPA announcements to the peanut gallery. Both myself and the MD are of the same mind, which is that any shooting sport is great and we best hang together or we will hang seperately.

Ted

[alan]

faustulus:

If I may make so bold as to offer a POSSIBLE explaination, did you ever come across the phrase PISSING CONTEST, or perhaps EGO TRIP? I believe that one and or the other will serve to explain.

I generally shoot IPSC. I use one of two pistols. In Limited Ten, a 1911 type pistol, single stack, with 10 round magazines. In Production, I shoot an old Star Model 30M, 9mm "classic" double action , magazines loaded with 10 rounds. 1911 is Major, the 9mm is Minor.

In IDPA, I would shoot either of the above mentioned, without problems. Oh, once, I was "called" on my holster, it was an old Rodgers-Hackenthorn, no longer made. I believe that the guy who kicked up a small fuss lacked anything better to do at the time. Nobody else seemed to care.

Essentially, IDPA requires pistols or revolvers that one might actually carry on the street, along with same type of holster. Compensated handguns, with large optical sights aren't really practical for street carry, though they might be fun to shoot. It all depends on which type of game one chooses to play.

Enough said.

[ted murphy]

To be fair,

USPSA's production and Revolver divisions are good forums for using your carry gear and guns. You have to carry a LOT more moonclips or magazines, but it's pretty decent practice.

USPSA's Open and Limited divisions are the one with the space holsters and far out gear. Those two divisions are pretty expensive but you can compete in production or revolver for just a few bucks more than in IDPA's divisions, the difference being you needing about a few more mag pouches and magazines, or speedloader/moonclip setups.

Ted

[Jeeper]

Ted

Dont fool yourself into believeing that IDPA guns are cheap. THe guns that are used at nationals in CDP and ESP are the same price as a limited USPSA gun.

[ted murphy]

Jeep,

I have a second place trophy in my office (SSR SS) that I won at the IDPA Nationals (2000) with a $150.00 revolver, $18.00 holster, and three speedloaders. I have a 3rd place trophy right next to it from the 2001 Nationals I won with a stock G17, and about eighty bucks worth of blade tech equipment and 4 mags.

My most cherished trophy is a "SSR Champion" trophy I learned at the Liberty Bell match in Pa. I used a Model 15 and cheap speedloaders to best some really good moongun shooters.

You can buy an expensive gun in IDPA but the guy who refuses to lose will kick your butt with a box stock gun.

Some guys go high dollar in ESP and CDP, but that's cause they can. They don't do a darn thing better than a good Springfield and Kimber with a decent trigger can. Prettier though, but that's about it.

FWIW, I've shot Sevigny's glocks this year. It's all stock Glock parts and the pull weight isn't any different than my G17 with a glock 3.5# connector installed.

A quick look to the 2004 nats results shows that a couple of the top 5 in CDP Master class had factory guns. They were smithed, but nowhere near the expense discussed in the above post. ESP Ma is pretty similar in that respect. Heck, on of the top 10 in ESP Ma used a nearly stock Beretta that had only a trigger job. I doubt that shooter felt he was ill prepared to take on the high end 1911's there.

It really is the Indian and not the arrow.

Ted

[alan]

ted murphy:

Sounds as if you have a pretty fair idea of what to do with a handgun, from the competition results you mentioned either that or you are pretty lucky, likely the former.

As for myself, I shoot IPSC Production class with a Star Model 30, 9mm, that when new, a while back, cost between $200 and $250. I also have a Kimber I shoot in Limited 10 class, which was more expensive. Have also shot Limited with an old Browning Hi-Power that I put out about $65 in actual cash, plus the Walther P-38 I traded back in 1967, total value slightly less than $100 for the Hi-Power.

Back when I was shooting High Power Rifle, Ron Troyer who lived in Ohio then used to shoot with us at Malvern. He had been 3 or 4 times in a row, Civilian High Power Rifle Champ. He came down to a 600 yard match one time, with a Model 70 Winchester sporter, in caliber 270 Win. He put Redfield sights on it, Iron Sights, and proceeded to out shout everyone who was there, or almost everyone.

Like you said, it isn't the arrow, it's the Indian.

[Jeeper]

Ted,

I dont get it. You say to compete in open and limited you need expensive guns. Then you say you dont. The only difference between most limited guns and guns used in ESP is a bull barrell and a magwell. They are otherwise identical. I dont think that the gun makes a rats bit of difference. Stock glocks compete very well in limited. Add an optic and they shoot well in open. I was just taking note to the normal myth that you need to spend a lot of money in IPSC and not in IDPA. The top guys use expensive guns in both. They dont need to but the fact is that they do. Just because the top guys in IDPA in ESP and CDP use a "factory" gun doesnt mean it isnt $2K. Look at Burkett, Bulter and Leatham. They arent shooting $500 pistols. I was trying to find an old post by Burkett that he talked about how there was no difference in cost between guns used in IPSC and IDPA. I couldnt find it though.

[ted murphy]

Jeeps,

Read my posts again

I never said you "had to have" expensive guns in Limited/Open, I just said that they were there. And that is quite true. And the majority of my comments were related to IDPA by the way.

In reference to limited class:

Until you get to the top of the game, you do not need the expensive guns in Open and Limted. But the fact remains that the vast majority of the open and limited shooters I know, put a boatload of money into the guns. And there isn't a darn thing wrong with that. For most those fellas, it's a large portion of the fun of USPSA. The act of tricking out your gun and playing with different accessories and add-ons. Like the teenagers tricking out their honda civics. I've beaten my friend with his $2600.00 limited gun with my wheelgun at matches, but you cannot deny he is having as much if not more fun than me at the range.

Having handled Leatham's IDPA gun, it isn't much beyond a stock gun. I could have one like it in the $1200.00 range, though my $450 Springfield with a $75.00 trigger job does what I need it to.. Sevigny's all stock too btw.

FWIW, of all the esp shooters I know, I'd say the average value of the 1911's used is about $800.00 with all the tricking out. Low point is $350.00 and high point is $2200.00



Ted

[ffl]

I have always been told that anything less than a 45 is a sissy cal.

Yea right

tell that to Leatham, Mickulek, Koo, Munson & company

but I still tell my brother that he shoots a sissy cal.

[ffl]

I personally have seen RL and the boys and girls shoot the high dollar race guns at the Bianchi cup.

I don't think that the type of gun or how expensive it is determines the winner. When a person gets to that class of shooting the gun does not matter much. the hours of practice do.

As for me I have probably what is the best value for the money. I shoot a Spgfld 1911A1 "loaded" retails for 725.00-825.00 depending where you buy.

Last week I was shooting empty 12 Ga. Hulls from 40 ft. I have not done anything to the gun since purchasing other than reducing the trigger to 4 lbs.

I do shoot a 200 gr. Semi round nose lead with 4.1 gr of Bullseye.

The most accurate handgun right out of the box I have shot.

I don't practice but maybe once a month plus shoot a USPSA match once a month.