The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 17, 2014, 09:27 AM   #1
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Comparative perfromance between primer brands

I normally buy Fiocchi primers for both my .38spl needs and my .44s (Mag and Spl). However, supplies are not alway available and so I might need to buy what is there.

This happened today and I now have 200 of both CCI No.300 and No.500.

I have heard that if you change a component, you should redo load work ups. For powders and bullets of course. For cases I might not bother, but for primers I am not sure.

My .38s are pretty mild and so I am not so concerned there, however, with my .44s, they are quite hot in the case of the 240gr FMJs I have.

Basically has anyone used Fiocchi Standard Pistol Primers (particularly Large Pistol) as well as CCI No.300 and can you tell me if they produce similar or wildly different results?

I'd really rather not have to redo load work-ups just because this country has poor supplies of stuff....
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 10:14 AM   #2
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Different primers can make a difference equivalent to somewhere around 5% powder charge. You don't have to do a full work up, just enough to know that you're getting what you would expect. Drop 5% and make 2 (at most) rounds at reasonable increments. Won't cost but 10 rounds at most, and you're still getting to shoot so....
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 01:45 PM   #3
Jimro
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2006
Posts: 7,097
When I change primers I do a single ladder charge from starting to my normal charge, in half grain increments for rifle. Haven't ever needed to change primers for pistol, but I would suspect that .2 gr charge differences would prove or disprove a safe combination.

Jimro
__________________
Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.
Jimro is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 01:54 PM   #4
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Won't cost but 10 rounds at most, and you're still getting to shoot so....
I guess I knew this was coming but I thought perhaps someone had already shot both and realised there was no change in velocities for example.

That would have meant I could have seated all these primers and spent my morning off loading up a big stock of .44s, but now I can't because I wouldn't know if that load was just that bit too potent...

My other gripe was just that I can shoot for free at the club range (that is where I shoot my pistols), but if I want outdoor conditions for chrono work, I need to pay at another range.... and it is a pain to get to.
I guess I can do it all when I go to try my OCW charges for my new .308 bullets.

Was just trying to save the range money. Cheaper than a new gun though....
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 02:20 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Quote:
I thought perhaps someone had already shot both and realised there was no change in velocities for example.
This is really the same argument as starting at max loads.

Sure, somebody has shot them, but they haven't shot them in your gun, with your components.

What happened to somebody else isn't helpful. That's why we start low and work up.

If all we needed was "Somebody else shot them.", all we'd need was max loads and no work up.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 03:48 PM   #6
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Sure, somebody has shot them, but they haven't shot them in your gun, with your components.
That is undeniably true.

I'll measure some up tomorrow morning when I finish my Scenar .308 OCW ladder loads.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 06:54 PM   #7
Slamfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2007
Posts: 5,261
After reading about primer manufacturing and talking to a bud, I am going to say the primer you use today is going to be very different from one that came from a different lot tomorrow. Primer cake is mixed by hand and consistency varies considerably. I was told that workers are awarded cash awards if their primer cake is the most consistent, but I was told that primer consistency is an "artifact". Which I understood to mean, it has a high variance no matter what process controls are implemented.

The percentage of components in the mix have tolerances, and given that the constituents vary in purity, etc, and the amount in the mix varies, it is reasonable to assume the end product is going to vary lot to lot.

And then, manufacturers are free to change anything they want about their primers. You may have an expectation that your primers are as unchanging as Coke Classic, but guess what, I heard Coke Classic has changed over time, and no one asked my permission.

The only consistency I have noted is that Federal primers remain the most sensitive primers made in the US.
__________________
If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

Last edited by Slamfire; April 18, 2014 at 10:57 AM.
Slamfire is offline  
Old April 17, 2014, 10:59 PM   #8
RC20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 10, 2008
Location: Alaska
Posts: 7,014
James,

I work my loads up to only the area between mid and high and accept the best accuracy I get in that area.

Its one way that if something shifts a bit, either a powder batch change or primers as well as changing primer mfgs, then its still safe.
RC20 is offline  
Old April 18, 2014, 02:11 AM   #9
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
Quote:
Its one way that if something shifts a bit, either a powder batch change or primers as well as changing primer mfgs, then its still safe.
By and large I'd say I also load mild-ish.

My .38s are 125 gr and hit about 750-800fps, the .44Spl are 200gr and about 850fps. .308 are not an issue as I will only use the same brand due to this being a load used for accuracy.

.44 Mag is a slightly different story for me because, as I understand it my loads are a little hotter. 200gr at about 1200fps but 240gr at 1350fps, all from a 4" barrel.

Fortunately, it is a Redhawk and fairly tough, but still, to be sure I will rustle up some mini work-ups.

When I do my Scenar and Hornady FMJ OCW test-fires, I will shoot off those pistol loads over the chrono. If the FPS approximates my existing values, I'll know that these primers are a safe option for future supply shortages.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Old April 18, 2014, 03:28 AM   #10
iraiam
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 6, 2012
Location: Lakewood, CO
Posts: 1,057
I advise to drop the powder charge some and work back up. I have some experience switching primer brands and have seen first hand how it can lead to an unexpected rise in pressure.

IMO It's not just the power of the primer that is the issue, but the effect of this primer change on the powder burn that is more important. I have seen what looks like much more than a 4-5% increase in pressure by switching out only the primer brand.

I have since worked up different max powder charges on numerous recipes with different primers, although Fiocchi is not a brand I have used.
__________________
NRA Lifetime Member Since 1999

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few public officials." George Mason
iraiam is offline  
Old April 19, 2014, 10:22 AM   #11
Tomas
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 9, 1999
Location: Blue State
Posts: 441
I only drop charges and work back up if my loads are near max, when I change primers; this doesn't apply if I change from standard to magnum, however...a totally different animal.
Tomas is offline  
Old April 19, 2014, 11:45 AM   #12
Pond, James Pond
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2011
Location: Top of the Baltic stack
Posts: 6,079
They are not near max (with the exception of my 240gr load) as far as I can tell, but I have backed each mag load by one grain and done two rounds in 0.2 or 0.1gr increments for my .44Spl and my .38Spl.

The only Magnums I have loaded have been for my new 300gr bullets for which I have no load yet, so I just loaded a charge ladder with the Fiocchis and duplicated the charges with CCI primed cases too.

Ultimately I will use which ever CCI primed load gives similar velocity to my original loads for consistency's sake, be it the same or lower...

If I have to load higher, I'll be annoyed because I'll have to load another bunch instead of getting the results I need to see he first time round.
__________________
When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic.
Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.
Pond, James Pond is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06855 seconds with 8 queries