Running and gunning/Shooting on the move - Why not?

shaofutzer · October 28, 2010, 05:59 PM

OK - so I imagine I'm going to catch some flack for this one, but I'm a relatively new user, so if it leads to a ban, I can always come back.

So a coupla days ago, my brother and I are shooting his Gold Cup in the woods. There's an old rusty pipe buried in the ground about 50 feet away from us. He takes an aimed shot at the pipe and misses completely. Poking fun at him, I ask for the .45 and proceed to take the same shot - while walking sideways at a brisk pace. I nailed it. Hmmm... that was easier than I thought - must have been a fluke. So I tried again. Again - I pegged it.
My brother, always one to push me to my limits, comes up with the idea of setting up a small course with various cans and plastic bottles as targets. He marks off a starting and finishing line along with 3 targets and tells me to go as fast and accurately as I can. To make a long story short, by the end of the day, I was able to run any course he threw at me (no muscle memory here) with various targets at different engagement points at various distances - at nearly full steam. I was nailing everything we put out there and it was all zen - pure point shooting - I didn't have TIME to aim. I was consistently averaging almost 2 bullseyes a second running at full speed - and I was consistent! We were both blown away at what I was doing, but even moreso when I looked on the internet to find video of others doing it and couldn't find any!
I've been shooting for about 25 years now and I've always been led to believe
that shooting while running was a fool's errand, and that it's ALWAYS better to stop and take the time to aim for an accurate shot. But after that day I'm not so sure anymore. If I could take out 3 bad guys with 6 on target shots while hauling ass across rough terrain in under 4 seconds - then why is that a bad thing? Why is running and gunning so looked down upon? Is it because some people just don't have the ability to do it so they claim that it's dangerous, irresponsible, and ineffective? ...and please, before bashing me - if you have video of anyone else doing such things, please send me a link because I've been looking. I've seen people kinda scootin' along and shooting, but no one at a full running pace...

g.willikers · October 28, 2010, 06:15 PM

I saw that once, in a Bugs Bunny cartoon.
No, wait, it was Bugs who was running, and Elmer was shooting, but he was standing still.
Never mind.

Ok, the reason it's not done much is that most folks run a risk of muzzle sweeping their own body parts when running fast.
Lot of swinging arms and legs.
Plus tripping, falling and running into things.
But if you do some more searching on youtube and myoutdoorstv, there's probably some examples of some very fast scooting and walking while shooting.
And a lot of ground can be covered quickly this way, plenty fast enough to get a bead on and engage multiple targets that are spread out.
Bullets go faster than people can run.
That's my take on it, anyhow.

RickB · October 28, 2010, 06:19 PM

I do a lot of competition shooting that either allows or requires shooting while moving. It's generally considered a skill that requires a lot of practice. It's a valuable skill to develop, but it's not a universal technique. A lot of "top shooters", even though they're skilled at shooting while moving, will instead move as close as they can to a target so that it can be engaged statically; moving then shooting providing better results than doing both at the same time. I have never witnessed anyone running and shooting.

Cosmik de Bris · October 28, 2010, 08:36 PM

Look for IPSC and/or USPSA on youtube.

shaofutzer · October 28, 2010, 10:16 PM

I already checked out youtube... These guys look like they're stuck in molasses... I mean - running... Not scooting...

brmfan · October 28, 2010, 11:45 PM

The Shwartz was with you!

**Frank Ettin** · October 29, 2010, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmik de Bris

Look for IPSC and/or USPSA on youtube.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaofutzer

I already checked out youtube... These guys look like they're stuck in molasses... I mean - running... Not scooting...

Ever tried IPSC/USPSA? Why don't you give it a try?

griz · October 29, 2010, 07:41 AM

Have you tried jumping off a platform while shooting? I saw it in a movie so I tried it. It was as if I couldn't miss. I think the weightlessness of free fall improves the aim.

Seriously, as GWhilikers mentioned, people running while looking at other things (targets) sometimes fall down. People who fall down often try to break the fall with their hands. And people who use hands with guns in them to break their fall tend to shoot in directions they hadn't planned. Please be careful.

jhenry · October 29, 2010, 08:14 AM

Find yourself a perfectly safe venue, not the woods with some metal pipe sticking out of the ground, get some witnesses, and make a video record of full tilt running over broken terrain, while scoring double tap bullseyes, using point shooting as you state (no sights), with no misses at a variety of distances, and post it. Keeping in mind safety first please. I think you stated 2 bullseyes per second. I am always looking to learn something new so I look forward to this video any time now.

Ronbert · October 29, 2010, 08:21 AM

You'll clean up at a USPSA match once you get your muzzle and trigger finger control to stay in-bounds.

**Mike Irwin** · October 29, 2010, 08:44 AM

"I imagine I'm going to catch some flack for this one, but I'm a relatively new user, so if it leads to a ban, I can always come back."

No, you can't. So do your best to keep from getting banned, because we're very good at ferreting out recidivists.

We tend to shoot them on the move, as it were...

That said, this is really a tactics and training sort of scenario, so I'm going to move it there and hope that Charlie and Pax don't mind.

AcridSaint · October 29, 2010, 09:46 AM

I like the mantra we do one thing well, two things OK and three things poorly. If you have your finger on the trigger, do you want to be running OK or poorly?

Shooting and moving is very real and very important, but running with your finger on the trigger is a bit like running with scissors - lots of kids do it without dying, but there's a reason we tell them not to.

shaofutzer · October 29, 2010, 10:49 AM

I would always disengage my trigger finger until I'm was on target just for that reason. I was thinking of blacking out a room, setting up pads, mattresses and things to trip on and practicing running around in the dark with my finger off and on an airsoft pistol so that I can get real tripping/trigger control experience. I figure it would condition me in case of a real life trip with a live firearm.
I may set up metal targets and use a blowback CO2 pellet pistol or something since getting to the woods is something I can't do very often. Then when I get a chance, I'll video tape the real thing.
Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I really want to look into getting into competition shooting. I think my #1 problem would be my near inability to travel to out of state competitions. Unless I got sponsored or something.

Anyway, cheesy airsoft/CO2 videos to come until I can afford more ammo and can make the trip out to the old hunting lease.

shaofutzer · October 29, 2010, 10:51 AM

@Mike - I was only joshin anyway.

Wouldn't want to lose my account. This is probably one of the only firearm forums where people have anything relevant to say these days.

**Frank Ettin** · October 29, 2010, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaofutzer

...I really want to look into getting into competition shooting. I think my #1 problem would be my near inability to travel to out of state competitions...

Ah, come on! I'd be very much surprised if there weren't some clubs holding regular competitions near you. I shot matches several times a month for years without ever leaving the State.

shaofutzer · October 29, 2010, 11:16 AM

I know, but I have big ambitions now

and I'm sure that I'll have to travel out of state eventually.

**Frank Ettin** · October 29, 2010, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaofutzer

I know, but I have big ambitions now and I'm sure that I'll have to travel out of state eventually.

So worry about that when/if the time comes. Or are you just using it as an excuse to avoid competing locally?

booker_t · October 29, 2010, 11:50 AM

Awesome story. I'll wait for the video.

If you are as amazing as you say, travel won't be a problem, I'm sure you'll be able to impress some reps from Springfield or Para and it'll all be sponsored.

smince · October 29, 2010, 12:54 PM

There are several instructors that teach dynamic moving while shooting (as opposed to the step or two right/left).

Seek these out for training.

Shawn Thompson · October 29, 2010, 04:18 PM

shaofutzer,

Shooting on the move was a topic that was considered Taboo for many years; however, it has slowly gained momentum as acceptance has begun to grow within the training community. About eight years ago we begen to explore the possibilities of shooting while moving and spent a couple of years exploring and developing what we consider a well structured course. We have now effecively taught shooting on the move for six years or so, including a basic introduction to shooting on the move at the Polite Society Tactical Conference, both in Memphis and in Tulsa.

What I am going to tell you is that I agree with smince... find the instructors that teach it for your training. I appreciate your eagerness to learn something challenging and new, but be mindful of loosing the practical application of the tool as well as reinforcing poorly acquired technique with repetition.

If you want the training, you are going to eventually have to travel.

24/7FLA · November 2, 2010, 05:04 PM

I don't want to sound skeptical, but let's see a video, maybe the reason you haven't found any is that you can't run full speed and hit 2 bullseyes a second? I'd really love to believe it, but I don't, and I'm sure not too many others do, either...but I'll see it and change my mind

Nnobby45 · November 2, 2010, 05:21 PM

I watched Gabe Suarez do it on one of his videos. I've practiced it some and believe it's effective. It's not running, but fast walking, and it's close range. Not a normal fighting technique, but one that would allow you to "get out of the hole".

Moving from your right to left is strictly one handed, of course, and two handed left to right. It's not running, but fast walking. At seven yds. it's effective fire, while one shoots his way to cover.

Guess if you wanted to see how effective it can be, you'd need Gabes' video--or practice it yourself. Since I shoot on public land, there aren't safety issues where others are concerned. Seven yds. is as close as I can safely shoot Evil Roy steel targets. After a little practice, the rds. started going right in there.

smince · November 2, 2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

I watched Gabe Suarez do it on one of his videos. I've practiced it some and believe it's effective. It's not running, but fast walking, and it's close range. Not a normal fighting technique, but one that would allow you to "get out of the hole".

Well, yes and no.

What Gabe and his instructors do in real life, on the range, is lot's faster than what is shown on the DVD's. No, it isn't a precision technique. It's designed to 'zipper' someone with large amounts of lead while 'getting off the x' (GOTX). We're not trying for one-hole groups with this.

GOTX is a mainstay of SI teaching, and it would be prudent for anyone to get quickly and dynamically out of the line of fire if there is an opening available. Call it a default reaction, but there is really a lot more to it than that.

685cmj · November 12, 2010, 10:15 AM

You can probably tell that alot of us are somewhat sceptical about your claims, but hoping you will come up with a video to show us the shooting skills you claim. Then you should set up a business and start training everyone else!
Besides the likelihood of shooting yourself in this scenario, there is also the question of what is happening to the (in your case, apparently very rare) bullets which are not hitting the target? I am a pretty good competitive shooter, and I notice my accuracy goes wayyyyy down when I start to move at any rate faster than a walk. So where are those misses going...into someone else's house, into someone else's car, into someone else? By far the better tactical choice in my judgment is to try to make the opponent move fast. From the perspective purely of accuracy, I find it much easier to hit a moving target while I am relatively still, then hit a standing target when I am moving fast.

spacecoast · November 12, 2010, 10:26 AM

At my last training class we practiced shooting while on the move (brisk walking pace) both side to side and backward/forward. A realistic SD scenario is probably not going to have you nailed to one spot, you very well might have to shoot while moving toward cover or to defeat the other guy's cover, so it's a good thing to practice.

October 28, 2010, 11:45 PM	#6
brmfan Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2008 Posts: 557	The Shwartz was with you! Last edited by brmfan; October 28, 2010 at 11:56 PM.

October 29, 2010, 08:14 AM	#9
jhenry Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2006 Location: Ozarks Posts: 1,840	Find yourself a perfectly safe venue, not the woods with some metal pipe sticking out of the ground, get some witnesses, and make a video record of full tilt running over broken terrain, while scoring double tap bullseyes, using point shooting as you state (no sights), with no misses at a variety of distances, and post it. Keeping in mind safety first please. I think you stated 2 bullseyes per second. I am always looking to learn something new so I look forward to this video any time now. __________________ "A Liberal is someone who doesn't care what you do, as long as it's mandatory". - Charles Krauthammer

October 29, 2010, 08:44 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,388	"I imagine I'm going to catch some flack for this one, but I'm a relatively new user, so if it leads to a ban, I can always come back." No, you can't. So do your best to keep from getting banned, because we're very good at ferreting out recidivists. We tend to shoot them on the move, as it were... That said, this is really a tactics and training sort of scenario, so I'm going to move it there and hope that Charlie and Pax don't mind. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

October 29, 2010, 04:18 PM	#20
Shawn Thompson Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 101	shaofutzer, Shooting on the move was a topic that was considered Taboo for many years; however, it has slowly gained momentum as acceptance has begun to grow within the training community. About eight years ago we begen to explore the possibilities of shooting while moving and spent a couple of years exploring and developing what we consider a well structured course. We have now effecively taught shooting on the move for six years or so, including a basic introduction to shooting on the move at the Polite Society Tactical Conference, both in Memphis and in Tulsa. What I am going to tell you is that I agree with smince... find the instructors that teach it for your training. I appreciate your eagerness to learn something challenging and new, but be mindful of loosing the practical application of the tool as well as reinforcing poorly acquired technique with repetition. If you want the training, you are going to eventually have to travel. __________________ Qui non proficit deficit Last edited by Shawn Thompson; October 29, 2010 at 04:32 PM.

November 2, 2010, 05:21 PM	#22
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	I watched Gabe Suarez do it on one of his videos. I've practiced it some and believe it's effective. It's not running, but fast walking, and it's close range. Not a normal fighting technique, but one that would allow you to "get out of the hole". Moving from your right to left is strictly one handed, of course, and two handed left to right. It's not running, but fast walking. At seven yds. it's effective fire, while one shoots his way to cover. Guess if you wanted to see how effective it can be, you'd need Gabes' video--or practice it yourself. Since I shoot on public land, there aren't safety issues where others are concerned. Seven yds. is as close as I can safely shoot Evil Roy steel targets. After a little practice, the rds. started going right in there. Last edited by Nnobby45; November 2, 2010 at 05:27 PM.

October 28, 2010, 05:59 PM	#1
shaofutzer Member Join Date: October 8, 2010 Posts: 17	Running and gunning/Shooting on the move - Why not? OK - so I imagine I'm going to catch some flack for this one, but I'm a relatively new user, so if it leads to a ban, I can always come back. So a coupla days ago, my brother and I are shooting his Gold Cup in the woods. There's an old rusty pipe buried in the ground about 50 feet away from us. He takes an aimed shot at the pipe and misses completely. Poking fun at him, I ask for the .45 and proceed to take the same shot - while walking sideways at a brisk pace. I nailed it. Hmmm... that was easier than I thought - must have been a fluke. So I tried again. Again - I pegged it. My brother, always one to push me to my limits, comes up with the idea of setting up a small course with various cans and plastic bottles as targets. He marks off a starting and finishing line along with 3 targets and tells me to go as fast and accurately as I can. To make a long story short, by the end of the day, I was able to run any course he threw at me (no muscle memory here) with various targets at different engagement points at various distances - at nearly full steam. I was nailing everything we put out there and it was all zen - pure point shooting - I didn't have TIME to aim. I was consistently averaging almost 2 bullseyes a second running at full speed - and I was consistent! We were both blown away at what I was doing, but even moreso when I looked on the internet to find video of others doing it and couldn't find any! I've been shooting for about 25 years now and I've always been led to believe that shooting while running was a fool's errand, and that it's ALWAYS better to stop and take the time to aim for an accurate shot. But after that day I'm not so sure anymore. If I could take out 3 bad guys with 6 on target shots while hauling ass across rough terrain in under 4 seconds - then why is that a bad thing? Why is running and gunning so looked down upon? Is it because some people just don't have the ability to do it so they claim that it's dangerous, irresponsible, and ineffective? ...and please, before bashing me - if you have video of anyone else doing such things, please send me a link because I've been looking. I've seen people kinda scootin' along and shooting, but no one at a full running pace...

October 28, 2010, 06:15 PM	#2
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	I saw that once, in a Bugs Bunny cartoon. No, wait, it was Bugs who was running, and Elmer was shooting, but he was standing still. Never mind. Ok, the reason it's not done much is that most folks run a risk of muzzle sweeping their own body parts when running fast. Lot of swinging arms and legs. Plus tripping, falling and running into things. But if you do some more searching on youtube and myoutdoorstv, there's probably some examples of some very fast scooting and walking while shooting. And a lot of ground can be covered quickly this way, plenty fast enough to get a bead on and engage multiple targets that are spread out. Bullets go faster than people can run. That's my take on it, anyhow.

October 28, 2010, 06:19 PM	#3
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	I do a lot of competition shooting that either allows or requires shooting while moving. It's generally considered a skill that requires a lot of practice. It's a valuable skill to develop, but it's not a universal technique. A lot of "top shooters", even though they're skilled at shooting while moving, will instead move as close as they can to a target so that it can be engaged statically; moving then shooting providing better results than doing both at the same time. I have never witnessed anyone running and shooting.

October 28, 2010, 08:36 PM	#4
Cosmik de Bris Member Join Date: December 15, 2008 Posts: 65	Look for IPSC and/or USPSA on youtube.

October 28, 2010, 10:16 PM	#5
shaofutzer Member Join Date: October 8, 2010 Posts: 17	I already checked out youtube... These guys look like they're stuck in molasses... I mean - running... Not scooting...

October 29, 2010, 07:41 AM	#8
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	Have you tried jumping off a platform while shooting? I saw it in a movie so I tried it. It was as if I couldn't miss. I think the weightlessness of free fall improves the aim. Seriously, as GWhilikers mentioned, people running while looking at other things (targets) sometimes fall down. People who fall down often try to break the fall with their hands. And people who use hands with guns in them to break their fall tend to shoot in directions they hadn't planned. Please be careful.

October 29, 2010, 08:21 AM	#10
Ronbert Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2009 Location: Ft. Collins, CO. Posts: 398	You'll clean up at a USPSA match once you get your muzzle and trigger finger control to stay in-bounds.

October 29, 2010, 09:46 AM	#12
AcridSaint Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 407	I like the mantra we do one thing well, two things OK and three things poorly. If you have your finger on the trigger, do you want to be running OK or poorly? Shooting and moving is very real and very important, but running with your finger on the trigger is a bit like running with scissors - lots of kids do it without dying, but there's a reason we tell them not to.

October 29, 2010, 10:49 AM	#13
shaofutzer Member Join Date: October 8, 2010 Posts: 17	I would always disengage my trigger finger until I'm was on target just for that reason. I was thinking of blacking out a room, setting up pads, mattresses and things to trip on and practicing running around in the dark with my finger off and on an airsoft pistol so that I can get real tripping/trigger control experience. I figure it would condition me in case of a real life trip with a live firearm. I may set up metal targets and use a blowback CO2 pellet pistol or something since getting to the woods is something I can't do very often. Then when I get a chance, I'll video tape the real thing. Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I really want to look into getting into competition shooting. I think my #1 problem would be my near inability to travel to out of state competitions. Unless I got sponsored or something. Anyway, cheesy airsoft/CO2 videos to come until I can afford more ammo and can make the trip out to the old hunting lease.

October 29, 2010, 10:51 AM	#14
shaofutzer Member Join Date: October 8, 2010 Posts: 17	@Mike - I was only joshin anyway. Wouldn't want to lose my account. This is probably one of the only firearm forums where people have anything relevant to say these days.

October 29, 2010, 11:16 AM	#16
shaofutzer Member Join Date: October 8, 2010 Posts: 17	I know, but I have big ambitions now and I'm sure that I'll have to travel out of state eventually.

October 29, 2010, 11:50 AM	#18
booker_t Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2009 Posts: 797	Awesome story. I'll wait for the video. If you are as amazing as you say, travel won't be a problem, I'm sure you'll be able to impress some reps from Springfield or Para and it'll all be sponsored.

October 29, 2010, 12:54 PM	#19
smince Junior member Join Date: October 9, 2004 Location: Northeast Alabama Posts: 2,580	There are several instructors that teach dynamic moving while shooting (as opposed to the step or two right/left). Seek these out for training.

November 2, 2010, 05:04 PM	#21
24/7FLA Junior Member Join Date: October 3, 2010 Posts: 13	I don't want to sound skeptical, but let's see a video, maybe the reason you haven't found any is that you can't run full speed and hit 2 bullseyes a second? I'd really love to believe it, but I don't, and I'm sure not too many others do, either...but I'll see it and change my mind

November 12, 2010, 10:15 AM	#24
685cmj Senior Member Join Date: January 15, 2007 Posts: 105	You can probably tell that alot of us are somewhat sceptical about your claims, but hoping you will come up with a video to show us the shooting skills you claim. Then you should set up a business and start training everyone else! Besides the likelihood of shooting yourself in this scenario, there is also the question of what is happening to the (in your case, apparently very rare) bullets which are not hitting the target? I am a pretty good competitive shooter, and I notice my accuracy goes wayyyyy down when I start to move at any rate faster than a walk. So where are those misses going...into someone else's house, into someone else's car, into someone else? By far the better tactical choice in my judgment is to try to make the opponent move fast. From the perspective purely of accuracy, I find it much easier to hit a moving target while I am relatively still, then hit a standing target when I am moving fast.

November 12, 2010, 10:26 AM	#25
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	At my last training class we practiced shooting while on the move (brisk walking pace) both side to side and backward/forward. A realistic SD scenario is probably not going to have you nailed to one spot, you very well might have to shoot while moving toward cover or to defeat the other guy's cover, so it's a good thing to practice.