Shock and Awe ammo sequence to combat (real) pirates

[manonash]

Hi Guys,
This might be something a little different for you to think of, but I have a unique problem. We are planning a world circumnavigation on our sailboat starting next year. This cruise will take us near and through some relatively unsafe waters such as Honduras, Malaysia, and Somalia - all with risk of piracy and/or murder. In addition, many of the "pirates" are now very sophisticated in boats capable of 40mph, carrying everything from high cal rifles, automatics, and even RPGs.

Of course, the best defense is to travel in convoys - at times even possible with military escort/monitoring (through the Red Sea, for example). Unfortunately, sometimes you are just going to be vulnerable. In addition to a couple of handguns, our primary defense weapon is a Mossy 930 SPX auto loader, capable of 9 rounds.

What I am looking for is the best theoretical sequence of rounds to; 1) Create a major "shock and awe" experience (to appear even more threatening than we really are) for any threatening boats, and 2) Have maximum damage to occupants and vessel.

There are a couple of things to consider. First, the first shot needs to be a strong WARNING round only (often naive, well meaning fishing boats will charge toward you to welcome you to port, not paying attention to radio calls). Second, in my mind, the whole engagement would take place within 100 yards and be "over" within 10 seconds, transitioning to handguns if necessary.

In a perfect world, there would be a few mixed of rounds that could expand enough to incapacitate 4-6 aggressors, mixed with some magic round that could start a sizable fire on their vessel and/or create enough damage to their outboard engines at a distance to stop it. I have checked in to a number of the "exotic" rounds that are commercially available, just not sure how to mix the rounds to create the most ominous effect.

You have nine rounds to protect your vessel and save your family from a fast approaching boat. What would you do?

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Also looking for any unique solutions for close-work in the event that we expel our ammo, and the boat comes along side. (Napalm? Gas? Pepper?)


Thanks for your help!

[manonash]

In addition to the question of 12ga rounds to use, what about the best strategy to survive this kind of attack at sea?

A) From a Distance:
I'd love to think that we could fire some sort of crazy warning shot that would scare the pirates to slow, followed by a rifled slug or two to kill their engine, followed by a couple of wide-dispersion loads to damage the occupants, followed by a series of incendiary rounds to start their boat on fire without them getting closer than 50 yards.

The problem? If enough damage isn't created quickly enough, they are close enough to use their own weapons on us and we are a sitting duck, either at anchor, or moving at a max of 7 knots.

B) Close Up:
The other option is to go below, acting as if you haven't noticed their approach, open a couple of portholes (6-10 inches), and wait for them to get close enough to unload a series of 9 close-range rounds within a couple of seconds, hoping it goes well, as they will quickly be able to hop aboard and overtake our vessel.

Crap, it's not a fun thought either way.

[Nowhere Man]

Think .50BMG. If you can convince them that your not such an easy target they might just turn and run.

If they are within the range of a 12 ga shotgun, they can return fire with AK's.

The trick is to hit them with everything you have before they can get close enough to shoot back.


Dave

[JerseyDrez]

Either way, long distance or short, you are at a disadvantage due to their weapons vs. yours. You have a shotgun and a few handguns, they have (depending) everything from assault rifles to RPG's.

Hopefully on your trip, this situation never occurs but if it did...I would probably make sure the other person in 'we' and of course myself got in enough practice at the range and also some tactical shooting courses, with the handguns and shotgun we would be carrying.

As for myself, I would probably wait for them to just about board. Now this might be a wrong answer, and I can totally understand why, but with the rather short-distance weapons you have, you have a much better chance defending yourself in a short-distance than firing off a few handgun rounds, or even your shotgun, at a long distance, especially with the boat rocking. At short distance, not only is your shotgun going to cause drastic damage, your handguns will also be able to provide a reasonable amount of damage.

'Shoot at them with everything youve got' theory is practical, but I dont know if I would do that in this situation. Anyone can go to the range and, maybe not hit bullseye every round, but empty a mag out of a 9mm handgun and at least hit a silhoutte target at 40yds with a few rounds. Now add in anxiety, nervousness, being on a boat thats getting rocked by waves and seeing a bunch of angry Somalian pirates cruising at 50mph towards your boat. Ehhh, if you said you had a few rifles (Ar, M4, even semi auti hunting rifles), you would have a much better chance of hitting your targets at a long distance rather than with a handgun or shotty.

I dunno. Id like to hear more experienced shooters' opinions on this situation though.

[RJay]

I am assuming your are never going to touch land, other wise check out the laws of each port you are going to enter. Some customs will confiscate firearms and fine you a large sum of money. In most European ports if you have any thing that resembles a military weapon you are in a world of hurt.

[bentley998]

Volume of fire is your first problem and nine rounds from one gun is scarcely enough.
The pirates can be expected to be experienced so they will return a heavy volume of fire on you if they are fired upon first You must plan to supress everything they have with the first salvo
What I suggest is in essence an at-sea ambush. Each person on board must have a weapon and a shooting assignment - at the waterline for some with slugs, at the individuals in the boat for others with buckshot or ar-15/M-16 type weapons.

good luck!!

[Maromero]

I really don't think a shotgun would deter pirates determined on seizing a boat and crew. What boat do you plan to use? Sailboat? You are not running away from anything, even in a trimaran or cat. Your only option is to be as heavily armed as the pirates themselves. Bolt action rifles are basically useless in a boat unless you are extremely experienced. Shotguns are great but have very limited range. Carbines, full auto rifles, grenade launchers. All this brings up two problems:where to get them and the different laws and regulations in the jurisdictions to be visited/traveled. I bet you will be braking a gazillion laws and expose yourself and others to possible prosecution where a Bill of Rights equals toilet paper.

I've heard that some people travel from Fla to the Caribbean in yachts, specially when a boat is new. I hear they get several AKs and plenty of ammo and when they are reaching their destination it's everything overboard for full auto weapons are prohibited in my jurisdiction. Your problem is you have plenty port o calls.

[manonash]

I agree that a shot gun is kind of a crappy weapon when it comes to anything beyond 30 yards (at which point it can get very ugly very fast). But, at the same time, engaging a target 100+ yards out with a rifle in rolling seas (target AND shooter). I consider myself a fairly good marksman at 250 yards with normal civilian/hunting rifles but have NO experience with more tactical/military weapons.

Are there any semi-auto mil-spec rifles that are good for marine use? (stainless?)

bentley998 makes a good point with shooting positions/assignments. for about 75% of our travels, it is just my wife and myself. Maybe one of us should start sniping with a rifle while the other is blowing wider holes with the shotty? But, what kind/type of rifle?

As far as the legality, it's actually pretty simple. In international waters you are pretty clear to have whatever you want on board. Coming to port can be problematic, as you have to declare your weapons when checking in with customs. The last time I sailed the Mediterranean, the only place I had any trouble was in Athens, but it was during the Olympics. At the same time, pirates don't usually hang out near busy/guarded customs ports. Once you are back at sea, it's kind of open season (so to speak).

[Maromero]

Thats the good thing about an AK. When in full auto it has a feeling very similar to water hose. Fun and easy to spay lead around.

[teeroux]

Tannernite in about a dozen gas cans(or other water tight container) thrown out of the boat in all directions. When they come close to the boat shoot one of the cans for shock and awe effect. Then open fire on them. If they are that determined and stick around you were boned anyway.

[NWPilgrim]

As already mentioned, you are at a severe disadvantage. They will hit at their convenience while you have to stay alert for days on end. They will likely use a boat capable of greater speed then your yacht/cruiser/sailboat. There will be several of them armed with AK47, fully automatic and lots of ammo.

I am not sure anything would warn them off. There is no magic bullet that scares an experienced assault short of massive firepower. The AK47 has an effective range of at least 200 yds, but I wouldn't want to be down range from one for 300-400 yds. Accuracy is not great past 200 yds, specially on a rolling sea, but still it is your life at stake.

I would want something with more range and accuracy than an AK47 to help make them stand off. From what I have read the pirates attack when you are mostly alone in areas not cluttered with possible friendlies. If a fast boat is approaching you you need good binoculars and a scoped rifle to identify them well beyond their firing range. Since this is critical have two sets of marine grade binocs.

Firing a blank or a live round in the air should be plenty of warning to friendlies. Anyone that ignores a gunshot is a foe. Anyone traveling in a fast boat with AK47 at the ready is a foe most likely.

I would chose a large caliber semi-auto rifle like an FAL (very common in many areas of the world, including Africa), or HK91/PTR91, or M1A in .308. Be sure to mount a quality scope. This is your stand off weapon. Hopefully if they approach and ignore your warning shot (shotgun blast would be good and loud, and buckshot won't be lethal much past 80 yds) then a few holes in their boat at 300 yds or beyond their AK range will convince them to find a weaker target.

If they continue to attack even after being fired on then you need to unload on them as accurately and fast as possible. Shoot for their leader and motor if possible, or whoever is most heavily armed. I'm not sure I would even take a shotgun if I'm expecting pirates. The .308 semi-auto will be better than the AK at least up to about 100 yds., maybe even in as close as 50 yds given the unstable boats. If they get within 50 yds you need rapid fire and a LOT of ammo. A shotgun might be OK if they are exposed. But if they are hiding behind the gunwales you will need slugs or a rifle like the AK or FAL.

If it were me, and I had room, I would want two .308 semi-auto rifles (two is one and one is none), two pistols, such as Glock G20 10mm (or if compact then the G23 or G27 in .40SW, or the G30 in .45ACP), and one shotgun. You should clean and oil the guns every day possible. Have spare parts kits for them, several mags (many more than you think each pirate will have on them), and lots of ammo.

If space or funds are really limited then I would go for at least a .308 rifle, an AK clone, and at least one pistol. But still have spare parts and tools, lots of mags, ammo and cleaning gear.

[NWPilgrim]

Just to reply on your "shock and awe" title ...

The tactic of shock and awe is to totally overwhelm your opponent, not to scare them. And to disable key capabilities of theirs near simultaneously before they have time to react or even process the situation.

Applied to fending off pirates I would interpret shock and awe to be applied as:

- Shoot from a distance before they are within range of their own AKs

- When you engage them, do not shoot a couple of rounds and see what happens. Rather, shoot for the motor, the leader, the most armed person, the waterline as quickly as possible. Give them so many things to worry about and respond to that they have no ability to carry on the attack. This is not spray and pray, this is fast paced, accurate fire at specific critical targets.

- If they continue the attack then keep up the firing on multiple critical targets.

- It would be nice to have an overwhelming weapon like a .50 machine gun. Barring that perhaps a magnum bolt action like a .338 Win Mag with a muzzle brake (much louder). Instead of a shotgun I would rather have a lever action .45-70, which Marlin makes in Stainless steel and a 20" barrel (Guide Gun). It can be shot and reloaded fairly rapidly and can even be scoped. It would be accurate at least to 150 yds with hot loads (Garret, Grizzly, etc.) and effective deterrent to 200 yds. If using a shotgun then I'd use brenneke slugs, or a rifled barrel with sabot slugs. A .45 - .70 chunk of lead punching holes in their boat and them will get their attention. If using a rifled barrel and sabot slugs then also get a low power scope to increase your advantage.

The problem, you probably do not want too expensive of guns as they could be confiscated.

[oneounceload]

besides a 12 gauge with slugs to penetrate their hull, I would look into a 308, with FMJ, AP, Tracer, or similar. Personally, I would also plan the trip to avoid the worst areas, (Somalia), etc........some things just aren't worth it, especially in a s l o w - m o v i n g sailboat that won't outrun anything except a rowboat

[Jimdo]

teeroux : Tannerite would not work in this situation very well... First it has to be hit with something high powered to make it explode. This wouldn't be a problem if both the target and the shooter were sitting still, but alas, they are not.
It would be extremely difficult (if not impossible) for a "good" civilian marksman to hit even a big amount of tannerite with a high powered rifle, at a safe distance, while the water is not only effecting his shot but also the target as well.
I like the idea but it just isn't practical in this scenario. He could potentially waste all of his ammo trying to hit the tannerite.

[Hank15]

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...specialty-ammo

Never tried them, but they look like they can do the job.

[P99AS9]

If I were the OP, I would think about investing some money into a full-auto. I'm guessing if he owns boats and takes long trips like he does, a nice FA M16 or AK47 wouldn't put too big of a dent in his wallet.

[hogdogs]

I would use no less than a shotgun AND a rifle with higher capacity magazines for such a trip. With your gun, 5 00 buck first then 3 slugs fill the tube. Ammo cans painted 3 different colors with loose ammo neatly packed in for my 00 my slugs and the rifle ammo. This way you can ask for the "red" can for 00 etc...
No reaso to warn a pirate. Shoot for the occupants as they approach!
Slugs may or may not harm an outboard and will not likely stop and inboard.
Brent

[Old Grump]

Warning shot is a wasted shot, scope your shotgun and buy a few cases of slugs.

Then practice with them.

[.45 COLT]

I'd certainly want a full auto in the situation. A group of pirates armed with AKs isn't going to be outfought by a shotgun and a couple of pistols. M-60 would be my choice, along with a couple of M1As for aux fire. If you man the M-60 soon enough, they probably will never get within shotgun range. I love shotguns, but sometimes they just aren't the right tool for the job.

DC

[bcarver]

you need rifles. Two AK or sks with 30 round mags.
load the shotgun with buck shot and hope they never get that close.
I would only shoot at the boat if it was an inflatable.
Shoot at the pilot or the one with a gun.

[LoneStarWings]

Aside from medium machine guns like M60's or M2's, I would go with M1A's (M14's) with a combination of armor piercing and ballstic tipped anti-personell rounds. They will give you a lot more range than an AK and a reasonoble chance of damaging the small vessels pirates are likely to use. They can also be effective in close range rapid fire if need be. The US navy has used M14's for a long time.

[RAHatto]

--M1 grand in 30-06 it will handle your long and medium with armor piercing and ballistic tipped anti-personnel. It has a reasonable clip for a rifle (not over M14 but it's 30-06 not 308). You should choose between the M1 or M14
--12 Gauge Slug (auto or pump not side by side or over under)gun for short and medium (slugs will shoot thru a car trunk)
--50 S&W or 44 Mag Handgun caliber. Armor piercing or ballistic tip, show stopper for close to medium.

Those guns will allow you ability to punch into a ship let alone a boat. You could also fire buck shot/dragon breath thru your slug gun barrel in a shtf scenario and you wont mind dorking up your barrel. I live buy the: least amount of calibers and take a butt load more ammo system of beliefs and I think that is worth looking into.

[B. Lahey]

I studied a bunch of pirate attacks for my International Criminal Law class last semester, and I can say that when pirates are confronted with any force, they go and find an easier target. They are looking to get rich, not injured or killed.

Just about any arms you can handle well will do the job. They have been chased off with handguns on numerous occasions, and even fire hoses and thrown deck chairs a few times (although firearms seem to scare them off a lot better).

Take whatever will draw the least amount of attention from authorities. Shotguns would probably be a good bet. Slugs would probably be a good choice for ammo.

"Exotic" shotgun loads are something to stay away from in general. They don't work. If they did, they would be in common use and not exotic.

Although "bird bombs" and flares could work for signaling purposes.

[Willie Lowman]

While we are going away from the OP's question, I say look here. www.tnwfirearms.com/guns_m2hb.shtml
As stated in others posts, a shotgun loaded with novelty shells is not gonna cut it against real honest to god pirates. Get some AKs or M1As at least. Real rifles with a good capacity. Know how to shoot them. Hope you don't have to.

[Lawyer Daggit]

The problem will be what you need versus what you can lawfully carry. While you need to be able to protect yourself against pirates you also need to ensure that you are not going to get arrested when you dock.

some parts of asia are well known for this type of 'misunderstanding'.

I understand that an appropriately loaded flare pistol (magnesium burns very hot) at short range can be a very effective improvised weapon.....