develping new respect for Americans - Page 2

arcticap · March 25, 2012, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikthestick

Orange jackets seem like a good idea.

Many states have a mandatory requirement to wear XXX square inches of blaze orange that's visible from all sides while hunting.

pohill · March 26, 2012, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Among my friends it is a generally held belief that Americans don't treat guns with the proper respect. Some don't seem to realise how dangerous guns are. FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT I used to agree with the above statement but recently have had a change of heart.

Is this belief held by older members of your country, those that might remember, say, the 1940s?

Doc Hoy · March 26, 2012, 07:20 AM

....and my interface with persons from European nations, I did indeed detect two reactions to American Culture. The first was a fascination with the "Cowboy" image of Americans. That image seems to have been quite widely applied. I had occasion to work with an Italian business person and the two words in American that he knew very well were Caterpillar (He worked in construction), and Winchester (When he spoke the word the exxpression on his face was the same as if he were addressing the Pope).

I would ask Myk if American TV Western shows were popular 10 to 20 years ago in Great Britain.

The second image is one of roughneck pioneerism. An Englishman who had visited the U.S. commented to me that he was impressed by the wide open space with, what he called, little pioneer towns. He called it barely civilized. To him I am sure this impression was valid and accurate.

All safety and especially firearm safety is built upon adherrence to strict processes or rules. A culture which is associated with the cowboy image and the pioneer spirit might be assumed to prioritize other things above rules. I can completely understand Myk's comments.

I don't view his comments as an indication that Europeans have forgotten WWII. Lest we forget, America did not enter WWII to win the admiration of our allies. We did it to help (and here I repeat with emphasis, the word "help") defeat our enemies. Talk to a Russian and you will get the portrayal that the U.S. effort was a minor annoyance to Hitler in comparison the the Russian onslought. To some extent this portrayal is accurate.

Jeffrey1971 · March 26, 2012, 08:23 AM

Howdy,

After a long time casually reading on the forum, and then the gift of a Pietta '58 in .36 (a long line of broken bones in my right hand so I thought I'd ease into pistol shooting again before getting a .44), I'm really happy to be shooting BP. Thanks for all the unintentional inspiration!

This may not be the best for a first post, but I thought I'd chime in here. As some have said, Europe is a huge place with a lot of different cultures and ideas about guns. Here in France, the real "crackdown" on gun ownership didn't start until well after the First World War, and didn't become cultural until after the Second. About a million reasons for that, but there is a long history with guns in the country and a lot of guns still around - you come across pinfire rifles, shotguns, and revolvers fairly often at flea markets, as well as older cartridge guns. And there are a lot of French with a real passion for American history; I can assure you that beyond the media crap on both sides, there is a lot of admiration for the States.

Black Powder firearms are still not considered as firearms legally - I order my BP through the mail with no hazmat or other restrictions, and nothing beyond being 18 is required to own or shoot such a firearm. Owning a non-military caliber firearm usually is only limited by being part of a shooting club at the time of purchase, and having a gun safe for larger calibers. Lots of hunting, lots of target shooting going on. I'm not saying that it's anywhere close to the gun culture I grew up with back home, but hardly what I expected after all those years of hearing how you couldn't own a gun in France.

Please don't take it as soap-boxing, just as reading for some general international gun culture. Thanks again for the great forum!

Doc Hoy · March 26, 2012, 08:41 AM

....and welcome to the forum.

You are off to a great start.

mikthestick · March 26, 2012, 10:37 AM

Dpris & pohill mostly
I do know about guns, you are all teaching me about the American gun scene, I didn't know about the draft. I have tried to be cautious and not be insulting when making posts. My period of greatest interest is the Black Powder period. Your recent posts make me feel I should post how I feel about WW2, America and where my attitudes come from but I am not sure where to post it. As regards anti-British comments I thought them in Jest. In my locality the general attitude is "The greater the friendship the harder it is for my friend to insult me."

mikthestick · March 26, 2012, 10:49 AM

Doc I think the western has changed in the last 10 20 years. Movies have always been popular. Serials are virtually non existant now. too much reality TV.
mik

pohill · March 26, 2012, 11:00 AM

I was just curious if there was a generational attitude difference towards American gun ownership in GB. You mentioned the opinions of your friends - I was wondering about the old timers.
As far as our little "dispute" a few hundred years ago - we keep bringing it up every July. That'll never go away.
I still don't get crickett.

SilentScreams · March 26, 2012, 11:04 AM

Quote:

I still don't get crickett.

Does anyone? Kidding.
I've been to London and surrounding areas a few times. Aside from a few pub scuffles, I never had any problem with most of the residents. They were as polite and as helpful as they could be in most cases. (Like me getting lost in downtown London and being at the opposite end of my hotel.)

mikthestick · March 26, 2012, 11:25 AM

Yes I agree. An uncle of mine drove landing craft in Normandy invasion, said he had Americans aboard sometimes (only spoke about it once). He said Americans did things different, but were equally afraid and equally brave. He made the point quite emphatically they were all very afraid.

I regret to say of myself & friends and our impressions and attitudes to Americans is shaped too much by Holywood. Holy wood often seems to put American soldiers in a bad light. I have recently been trying to redress the balance.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · March 26, 2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

mikthestick said:"The greater the friendship the harder it is for my friend to insult me-- I like that phrase!!!

I always liked History. As we can label a whole society from what is read to be either cultured or barbarian like. Mikthestick I would hope that Great Britain's folks think of us Americans as holding hard fast to the middle ground. We all know B/P played a tremendous roll in both our History's. I guess you can say it was "Yankee Ingenuity" that helped give us our Independence and also helped Great Britain to hold fast onto theirs. Which I myself consider a good thing for us both.

SSMcG

mykeal · March 26, 2012, 05:38 PM

I lived and worked in the UK (Edinburgh) for 5 years, from 1995 through 1999. Two things come to mind that, at the time, characterized the perceived attitudes of the Brits towards the Yanks and vice versa:

1) A Brit thinks 100 miles is a long distance, and a Yank thinks 100 years is a long time, and

2) A Brit's understanding of Yanks is greatly shaped by Hollywood, and a Yank's understanding of Brits is greatly shaped by Holyrood.

During that 5 year period I was never insulted by or felt mistreated by any Brit because of my American heritage. I had interactions with the length and breadth of UK society, from HRH's to crofters, on a wide variety of subjects and philosophies. I was careful to always be honest and straightforward and that would on occasion result in disagreement and even anger, but it was never personal. I cannot say the same thing about other European countries, although I haven't visited them all.

PS - I suspect the reference to Holyrood above will be too esoteric for the Americans, so here's a hint: Holyrood Palace is the seat of the British monarchy in Scotland.

Andy Griffith · March 26, 2012, 06:07 PM

Mikthestick,

I hope you know I was only kidding! I hope you felt welcome, and if you are ever over on this side of the pond, you're welcome to come my very humble abode and go shooting, or at least have a glass of sweet iced tea.

mikthestick · March 28, 2012, 12:02 PM

Andy
I did have a problem with American humour but not what you may think. I tried to tell an American Wargamer "There were no medieval Scottish Longbowmen" I tried to be humourous about it and he got quite upset. I thought it best to just leave the Forum. Judgeing by most American TV comedies we get here what makes an American laugh can be quite different to what works for a Brit.
What you should know "I don't often get upset" I have learned a lesson though, When unsure I always look for and assume humour is intended.

Andy Griffith · March 28, 2012, 12:24 PM

I do have some friends that are British although I've never been over yonder to the old country myself, I hope to pack the family and come over there and also hit Ireland (where some of my ancestors are from also) and have a look around the countryside...but I already live in vacationland!

Or...is it the nut house???

I do have plenty of experience with MG's, Rover's though. I had to learn to read the King's English out of necessity to use the Bentley Publishing repair manuals.

I've been meaning to pick up a nice SMLE to go with my Webley's.

The British make great stuff.

armoredman · March 29, 2012, 10:16 AM

Now Welsh bowmen, on the other hand...

**4V50 Gary** · March 30, 2012, 12:10 PM

Doc Hoy. Your European's attitude about the lack of sophistication in the pioneer towns was also shared by big city Americans in the 1870s-1890s. In some towns, the town folk were painfully aware of this and built opera houses, albeit small ones, to prove they were just as worthy as their big city cousins. Of course, this doesn't explain the Sante Fe Open Air Opera of today, but it may explain how Saint John Moses Browning from Ogden whistled some tune from Gounard's Faust.

Doc Hoy · March 31, 2012, 05:31 AM

And not surprising since the attitude persists to this day albeit to a lesser extent.

carprivershooter · March 31, 2012, 09:33 PM

Mikthestick, the last armed conflict with the British was in 1812. The British sacked Washington D.C. and burned the White House, it's like Buckingham Palace.

**4V50 Gary** · March 31, 2012, 11:01 PM

The US and England almost came to blows on some island between Vancouver and Seattle. Somebody shot someone else's pig and tempers flared. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed.

During the Spanish Anerican War a German ship was taking a position to support the Spanish line. The British ship then maneuvered to the tail of the American line. The British captain said he proposed to teach the German some manners. The German ship then veered off and assumed the position of a neutral observer.

Former enemies, now friends.

eastbank · April 1, 2012, 04:04 AM

my relitives came to america from germany,england and irland to try and better things for their families only to get sucked up in the american civil war (not one ever owned a slave)and after that if you didn,t call them americans there was going to be a fight (all seven were members of the GAR). this pic is of my ggg grandfather,s country estate in 1859 in the wilds of central pa. eastbank.

**4V50 Gary** · April 1, 2012, 04:42 AM

East bank. Do you know what unit(s)?

mykeal · April 1, 2012, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carprivershooter

...the White House, it's like Buckingham Palace.

Oh, no, no, no, it's not.

eastbank · April 1, 2012, 08:40 AM

4V50, yes,most of them,ricketts artillery, 28th. infantry, 155th infantry,48th. infantry all pa. units of the GAR. of course i never knew them,but my grandfather grew up with them and one lived with him and my grandmother untill his death and i talked to my grandfather and listend to him relate things they related to him. it was indeed a hard war. eastbank.

wittzo · April 4, 2012, 03:57 AM

Some friends of mine I met through the Boy Scouts are from England. They received their citizenship a few months ago. The father bought his son a Rossi combi-rifle kit because he was interested in shooting with the other Scouts in CMP. The dad had never owned or shot any gun before. After the CMP First Shots intro, they were a lot better educated about safety and guns in general. We had a practice and then a match after lunch. He came in second place, even though he ended up laying in a fire ant bed during the prone part of the match. His dad got to shoot another friend's .380 after the match. Hopefully, they'll come over on weekends so we can practice together and shoot.

We're trying to make sure all the boys involved with our shooting sports go through the NRA Basic classes, both pistol and rifle. We're strictly following the BSA range safety rules with more than the minimums of instructors and safety officers. We have several parents and leaders trained for both.

MS doesn't require any sort of class for CCW any more, but the NRA Advanced Pistol Instructor/Safety Officer course qualifies you to have an "Enhanced CCW" which allows CCW holders to carry concealed in court houses and other state regulated places.

We're also going to drum up interest in NRA Blackpowder shooting and shotguns, so the boys (and parents) will get as well rounded into guns and safety as we can get them.

March 26, 2012, 07:20 AM	#28
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	In my travels in Europe.... ....and my interface with persons from European nations, I did indeed detect two reactions to American Culture. The first was a fascination with the "Cowboy" image of Americans. That image seems to have been quite widely applied. I had occasion to work with an Italian business person and the two words in American that he knew very well were Caterpillar (He worked in construction), and Winchester (When he spoke the word the exxpression on his face was the same as if he were addressing the Pope). I would ask Myk if American TV Western shows were popular 10 to 20 years ago in Great Britain. The second image is one of roughneck pioneerism. An Englishman who had visited the U.S. commented to me that he was impressed by the wide open space with, what he called, little pioneer towns. He called it barely civilized. To him I am sure this impression was valid and accurate. All safety and especially firearm safety is built upon adherrence to strict processes or rules. A culture which is associated with the cowboy image and the pioneer spirit might be assumed to prioritize other things above rules. I can completely understand Myk's comments. I don't view his comments as an indication that Europeans have forgotten WWII. Lest we forget, America did not enter WWII to win the admiration of our allies. We did it to help (and here I repeat with emphasis, the word "help") defeat our enemies. Talk to a Russian and you will get the portrayal that the U.S. effort was a minor annoyance to Hitler in comparison the the Russian onslought. To some extent this portrayal is accurate. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; March 26, 2012 at 07:26 AM.

March 26, 2012, 08:41 AM	#30
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Jeff, Howdy .... ....and welcome to the forum. You are off to a great start. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 26, 2012, 11:25 AM	#35
mikthestick Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2012 Location: Devon England Posts: 177	Generational attitude difference Yes I agree. An uncle of mine drove landing craft in Normandy invasion, said he had Americans aboard sometimes (only spoke about it once). He said Americans did things different, but were equally afraid and equally brave. He made the point quite emphatically they were all very afraid. I regret to say of myself & friends and our impressions and attitudes to Americans is shaped too much by Holywood. Holy wood often seems to put American soldiers in a bad light. I have recently been trying to redress the balance.

March 26, 2012, 06:07 PM	#38
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	Mikthestick, I hope you know I was only kidding! I hope you felt welcome, and if you are ever over on this side of the pond, you're welcome to come my very humble abode and go shooting, or at least have a glass of sweet iced tea. __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...."

March 28, 2012, 12:24 PM	#40
Andy Griffith Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Location: Macon Co. NC Posts: 591	I do have some friends that are British although I've never been over yonder to the old country myself, I hope to pack the family and come over there and also hit Ireland (where some of my ancestors are from also) and have a look around the countryside...but I already live in vacationland! Or...is it the nut house??? I do have plenty of experience with MG's, Rover's though. I had to learn to read the King's English out of necessity to use the Bentley Publishing repair manuals. I've been meaning to pick up a nice SMLE to go with my Webley's. The British make great stuff. __________________ Barney Fife: "Nip it, nip it, nip it!" Andy Griffith:"Oh now Barn'...." Last edited by Andy Griffith; March 28, 2012 at 12:30 PM.

March 26, 2012, 08:23 AM	#29
Jeffrey1971 Junior Member Join Date: March 26, 2012 Location: Bordeaux, France Posts: 9	Howdy, After a long time casually reading on the forum, and then the gift of a Pietta '58 in .36 (a long line of broken bones in my right hand so I thought I'd ease into pistol shooting again before getting a .44), I'm really happy to be shooting BP. Thanks for all the unintentional inspiration! This may not be the best for a first post, but I thought I'd chime in here. As some have said, Europe is a huge place with a lot of different cultures and ideas about guns. Here in France, the real "crackdown" on gun ownership didn't start until well after the First World War, and didn't become cultural until after the Second. About a million reasons for that, but there is a long history with guns in the country and a lot of guns still around - you come across pinfire rifles, shotguns, and revolvers fairly often at flea markets, as well as older cartridge guns. And there are a lot of French with a real passion for American history; I can assure you that beyond the media crap on both sides, there is a lot of admiration for the States. Black Powder firearms are still not considered as firearms legally - I order my BP through the mail with no hazmat or other restrictions, and nothing beyond being 18 is required to own or shoot such a firearm. Owning a non-military caliber firearm usually is only limited by being part of a shooting club at the time of purchase, and having a gun safe for larger calibers. Lots of hunting, lots of target shooting going on. I'm not saying that it's anywhere close to the gun culture I grew up with back home, but hardly what I expected after all those years of hearing how you couldn't own a gun in France. Please don't take it as soap-boxing, just as reading for some general international gun culture. Thanks again for the great forum!

March 26, 2012, 10:37 AM	#31
mikthestick Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2012 Location: Devon England Posts: 177	Dpris & pohill mostly I do know about guns, you are all teaching me about the American gun scene, I didn't know about the draft. I have tried to be cautious and not be insulting when making posts. My period of greatest interest is the Black Powder period. Your recent posts make me feel I should post how I feel about WW2, America and where my attitudes come from but I am not sure where to post it. As regards anti-British comments I thought them in Jest. In my locality the general attitude is "The greater the friendship the harder it is for my friend to insult me."

March 26, 2012, 10:49 AM	#32
mikthestick Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2012 Location: Devon England Posts: 177	Doc I think the western has changed in the last 10 20 years. Movies have always been popular. Serials are virtually non existant now. too much reality TV. mik

March 26, 2012, 11:00 AM	#33
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	I was just curious if there was a generational attitude difference towards American gun ownership in GB. You mentioned the opinions of your friends - I was wondering about the old timers. As far as our little "dispute" a few hundred years ago - we keep bringing it up every July. That'll never go away. I still don't get crickett.

March 26, 2012, 05:38 PM	#37
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I lived and worked in the UK (Edinburgh) for 5 years, from 1995 through 1999. Two things come to mind that, at the time, characterized the perceived attitudes of the Brits towards the Yanks and vice versa: 1) A Brit thinks 100 miles is a long distance, and a Yank thinks 100 years is a long time, and 2) A Brit's understanding of Yanks is greatly shaped by Hollywood, and a Yank's understanding of Brits is greatly shaped by Holyrood. During that 5 year period I was never insulted by or felt mistreated by any Brit because of my American heritage. I had interactions with the length and breadth of UK society, from HRH's to crofters, on a wide variety of subjects and philosophies. I was careful to always be honest and straightforward and that would on occasion result in disagreement and even anger, but it was never personal. I cannot say the same thing about other European countries, although I haven't visited them all. PS - I suspect the reference to Holyrood above will be too esoteric for the Americans, so here's a hint: Holyrood Palace is the seat of the British monarchy in Scotland.

March 28, 2012, 12:02 PM	#39
mikthestick Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2012 Location: Devon England Posts: 177	Andy I did have a problem with American humour but not what you may think. I tried to tell an American Wargamer "There were no medieval Scottish Longbowmen" I tried to be humourous about it and he got quite upset. I thought it best to just leave the Forum. Judgeing by most American TV comedies we get here what makes an American laugh can be quite different to what works for a Brit. What you should know "I don't often get upset" I have learned a lesson though, When unsure I always look for and assume humour is intended.

March 29, 2012, 10:16 AM	#41
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,297	Now Welsh bowmen, on the other hand...

March 30, 2012, 12:10 PM	#42
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	Doc Hoy. Your European's attitude about the lack of sophistication in the pioneer towns was also shared by big city Americans in the 1870s-1890s. In some towns, the town folk were painfully aware of this and built opera houses, albeit small ones, to prove they were just as worthy as their big city cousins. Of course, this doesn't explain the Sante Fe Open Air Opera of today, but it may explain how Saint John Moses Browning from Ogden whistled some tune from Gounard's Faust. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

March 31, 2012, 05:31 AM	#43
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Good post, Gary And not surprising since the attitude persists to this day albeit to a lesser extent. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

March 31, 2012, 09:33 PM	#44
carprivershooter Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2008 Location: Michigan, Upper Pennsula Posts: 396	the last conflict Mikthestick, the last armed conflict with the British was in 1812. The British sacked Washington D.C. and burned the White House, it's like Buckingham Palace. __________________ CarpriverShOOter Finch, I don't like guns. Reese, Me either but if someone has to have guns I'd rather it be me. (Person of Interest). No trees were destroyed in the posting of the this message

March 31, 2012, 11:01 PM	#45
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	The US and England almost came to blows on some island between Vancouver and Seattle. Somebody shot someone else's pig and tempers flared. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed. During the Spanish Anerican War a German ship was taking a position to support the Spanish line. The British ship then maneuvered to the tail of the American line. The British captain said he proposed to teach the German some manners. The German ship then veered off and assumed the position of a neutral observer. Former enemies, now friends. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 1, 2012, 04:04 AM	#46
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	my relitives came to america from germany,england and irland to try and better things for their families only to get sucked up in the american civil war (not one ever owned a slave)and after that if you didn,t call them americans there was going to be a fight (all seven were members of the GAR). this pic is of my ggg grandfather,s country estate in 1859 in the wilds of central pa. eastbank. Last edited by eastbank; April 23, 2012 at 04:17 AM.

April 1, 2012, 04:42 AM	#47
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	East bank. Do you know what unit(s)? __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 1, 2012, 08:40 AM	#49
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	4V50, yes,most of them,ricketts artillery, 28th. infantry, 155th infantry,48th. infantry all pa. units of the GAR. of course i never knew them,but my grandfather grew up with them and one lived with him and my grandmother untill his death and i talked to my grandfather and listend to him relate things they related to him. it was indeed a hard war. eastbank. Last edited by eastbank; April 1, 2012 at 08:45 AM.

April 4, 2012, 03:57 AM	#50
wittzo Member Join Date: February 10, 2010 Posts: 95	Some friends of mine I met through the Boy Scouts are from England. They received their citizenship a few months ago. The father bought his son a Rossi combi-rifle kit because he was interested in shooting with the other Scouts in CMP. The dad had never owned or shot any gun before. After the CMP First Shots intro, they were a lot better educated about safety and guns in general. We had a practice and then a match after lunch. He came in second place, even though he ended up laying in a fire ant bed during the prone part of the match. His dad got to shoot another friend's .380 after the match. Hopefully, they'll come over on weekends so we can practice together and shoot. We're trying to make sure all the boys involved with our shooting sports go through the NRA Basic classes, both pistol and rifle. We're strictly following the BSA range safety rules with more than the minimums of instructors and safety officers. We have several parents and leaders trained for both. MS doesn't require any sort of class for CCW any more, but the NRA Advanced Pistol Instructor/Safety Officer course qualifies you to have an "Enhanced CCW" which allows CCW holders to carry concealed in court houses and other state regulated places. We're also going to drum up interest in NRA Blackpowder shooting and shotguns, so the boys (and parents) will get as well rounded into guns and safety as we can get them.