Tactical use of shotgun?

LASur5r · March 21, 2001, 09:59 PM

One of the other TFL'ers suggested that I ask the experts here that if you were in a situation where you have a limited amount of shotgun shells and you had multiple BG's would you try for COM's or would you shoot off the hard surfaces to get ricochet hits?

Can someone explain what happens when a shotgun pellet or slug hits the hard pavement of a street or sidewalk at what angle does it tend to ricochet?

Thanks in advance.

Coronach · March 21, 2001, 10:40 PM

I think the probability of you getting effective single hits (let alone double or triple) is about the same chance you have of getting free tacos from the Taco Bell-Mir promotion.

Mike

Destructo6 · March 22, 2001, 02:22 AM

Probably the only time you'd want to try to bounce shot off of a hard surface is if the target is behind hard cover and doing so is your only chance of a hit.

Dave McC · March 22, 2001, 06:24 AM

COM.

"Skip" shooting is something that may work, but hitting them COM with a shotgun load is as close to a guaranteed stop as anything fired from the shoulder can be.

jthuang · March 22, 2001, 10:48 AM

Definitely COM.

The only situation I can imagine where I would *want* to "skip" shots is if a BG (who needed to be eliminated and there was no other way) was hiding behind a car (properly) and a flanking manuever is not possible. If he is crowding his cover, the only practical way to get him would be to skip the rounds off the pavement beneath the car.

This is not a likely scenario. First, most BG's don't know how to use cover effectively. You see this in IPSC matches where the shooter runs right up to cover and sticks his or her handgun out, using the cover as support. Not only does this create weapon retention problems but it increases the chance that the shooter will be hit by a ricochet off the cover. If done correctly, the shooter should be at least 6 feet behind cover to avoid ricochets.

(This is no slam against IPSC shooters, as IPSC is not designed nor intended to teach real life defensive skills.)

Secondly, most BG's don't know how to use cars as cover either. Most will use the door or other non-bullet resistant part of the car -- if I had a weapon with penetrating power, I'd shoot through the cover and get them. We here at TFL know that the only real bulletproof part of a car is the engine block and the wheels -- the rest of the car is basically thin gauge steel and can be punched through by any intermediate rifle cartridge (not sure about slugs).

Aside: I think another interesting point in the scenario is the assumption that facing multiple BGs means you have to take them all down with your shotgun. Many SHF types envision the Mongol hordes streaming over the walls of their suburban homes in a riot or other type of civil unrest situation. This doesn't hold any water for me -- rioters are interested in getting a free TV, not getting a well placed blast with a 12 bore. Once you take out the first few rioters or (preferably) the leader/inciter of the riot, the Horde will go elsewhere to find that shiny 36" Sony WEGA.

Those with LE riot experience will know that riot control is not about suppressing the whole mob (attrition theory) but instead about putting the "leaders"/"inciters" out of commission (king theory). To destroy your enemy, it is preferable to attack his center of gravity instead of concentrating on eliminating his entire force.

VictorLouis · March 22, 2001, 05:02 PM

IIRC, the pellets bounce no more than 6"-10" off of the hard surface they ricocheted from. I don't think the angle of approach has any dramatic effect on that. I think this is stuck in my head from a Chuck Taylor article some time back.

Spectre · March 22, 2001, 05:11 PM

Shoot the leaders or first up.

Fatcat · March 22, 2001, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Many SHF types envision the Mongol hordes streaming over the walls of their suburban homes..

Sounds like a good subject for a thread.. [i]"What would you do if the mongol hoards came stampeding through your house..?"

Glamdring · March 23, 2001, 12:12 PM

I know my dad was trained to "skip" buckshot in his training for police reserve. IIRC he said it was supposed to be for riot though I don't see the point of it.

If I was facing large group of goblins with just my SG I would probably switch to slug and try to get an "upper A zone" hit on the most visible Goblin. IF I had the time & cover needed to think about it. Otherwise I would rely on speed.

One bit of info I gleaned from Applegates Kill or get Killed was that a SG with Buckshot can be used as an area denial weapon against windows or hallways. If your far enough away the pattern will cover entire area or more. Applegate mentioned it in the context of police trying to deal with Goblins barricaded in a house or such.

jthuang · March 23, 2001, 04:38 PM

Glamdring, I think the skipping of buckshot is a technique taught for use with rubber buckshot in riot suppression. You bounce the buckshot off the pavement in front of the rioting crowd instead of firing the round directly at the individual targets. I believe this is intended to lessen the impact of the buckshot on the target.

Justin

Glamdring · March 24, 2001, 11:37 AM

jthuang: You might be right. Still don't see the wisdom in it myself. Hard to gauge how high the rubber, or lead, pellets would skip when you bounce them. You might end up skipping them into throats & faces. Think it would make more sense to aim knee high?

Don't know, I don't think much of most riot control techniques. Don't think there are any good ways to stop a riot once it starts.

Al Thompson · March 25, 2001, 06:43 AM

20 years ago, the skipping of buckshot was indeed a riot control technique. Badly flawed, but a technique.

I'm a COM guy myself.

Giz

March 21, 2001, 10:40 PM	#2
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	COM I think the probability of you getting effective single hits (let alone double or triple) is about the same chance you have of getting free tacos from the Taco Bell-Mir promotion. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

March 25, 2001, 06:43 AM	#12
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	20 years ago, the skipping of buckshot was indeed a riot control technique. Badly flawed, but a technique. I'm a COM guy myself. Giz __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

March 21, 2001, 09:59 PM	#1
LASur5r Junior member Join Date: July 20, 2000 Location: pasadena,california,America Posts: 542	One of the other TFL'ers suggested that I ask the experts here that if you were in a situation where you have a limited amount of shotgun shells and you had multiple BG's would you try for COM's or would you shoot off the hard surfaces to get ricochet hits? Can someone explain what happens when a shotgun pellet or slug hits the hard pavement of a street or sidewalk at what angle does it tend to ricochet? Thanks in advance.

March 22, 2001, 02:22 AM	#3
Destructo6 Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 1999 Location: Nogales, AZ USA Posts: 4,000	Probably the only time you'd want to try to bounce shot off of a hard surface is if the target is behind hard cover and doing so is your only chance of a hit.

March 22, 2001, 06:24 AM	#4
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	COM. "Skip" shooting is something that may work, but hitting them COM with a shotgun load is as close to a guaranteed stop as anything fired from the shoulder can be.

March 22, 2001, 10:48 AM	#5
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Definitely COM. The only situation I can imagine where I would want to "skip" shots is if a BG (who needed to be eliminated and there was no other way) was hiding behind a car (properly) and a flanking manuever is not possible. If he is crowding his cover, the only practical way to get him would be to skip the rounds off the pavement beneath the car. This is not a likely scenario. First, most BG's don't know how to use cover effectively. You see this in IPSC matches where the shooter runs right up to cover and sticks his or her handgun out, using the cover as support. Not only does this create weapon retention problems but it increases the chance that the shooter will be hit by a ricochet off the cover. If done correctly, the shooter should be at least 6 feet behind cover to avoid ricochets. (This is no slam against IPSC shooters, as IPSC is not designed nor intended to teach real life defensive skills.) Secondly, most BG's don't know how to use cars as cover either. Most will use the door or other non-bullet resistant part of the car -- if I had a weapon with penetrating power, I'd shoot through the cover and get them. We here at TFL know that the only real bulletproof part of a car is the engine block and the wheels -- the rest of the car is basically thin gauge steel and can be punched through by any intermediate rifle cartridge (not sure about slugs). Aside: I think another interesting point in the scenario is the assumption that facing multiple BGs means you have to take them all down with your shotgun. Many SHF types envision the Mongol hordes streaming over the walls of their suburban homes in a riot or other type of civil unrest situation. This doesn't hold any water for me -- rioters are interested in getting a free TV, not getting a well placed blast with a 12 bore. Once you take out the first few rioters or (preferably) the leader/inciter of the riot, the Horde will go elsewhere to find that shiny 36" Sony WEGA. Those with LE riot experience will know that riot control is not about suppressing the whole mob (attrition theory) but instead about putting the "leaders"/"inciters" out of commission (king theory). To destroy your enemy, it is preferable to attack his center of gravity instead of concentrating on eliminating his entire force.

March 22, 2001, 05:02 PM	#6
VictorLouis Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2000 Location: Arizona Posts: 2,302	IIRC, the pellets bounce no more than 6"-10" off of the hard surface they ricocheted from. I don't think the angle of approach has any dramatic effect on that. I think this is stuck in my head from a Chuck Taylor article some time back.

March 22, 2001, 05:11 PM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Shoot the leaders or first up.

March 23, 2001, 12:12 PM	#9
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	I know my dad was trained to "skip" buckshot in his training for police reserve. IIRC he said it was supposed to be for riot though I don't see the point of it. If I was facing large group of goblins with just my SG I would probably switch to slug and try to get an "upper A zone" hit on the most visible Goblin. IF I had the time & cover needed to think about it. Otherwise I would rely on speed. One bit of info I gleaned from Applegates Kill or get Killed was that a SG with Buckshot can be used as an area denial weapon against windows or hallways. If your far enough away the pattern will cover entire area or more. Applegate mentioned it in the context of police trying to deal with Goblins barricaded in a house or such.

March 23, 2001, 04:38 PM	#10
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Glamdring, I think the skipping of buckshot is a technique taught for use with rubber buckshot in riot suppression. You bounce the buckshot off the pavement in front of the rioting crowd instead of firing the round directly at the individual targets. I believe this is intended to lessen the impact of the buckshot on the target. Justin

March 24, 2001, 11:37 AM	#11
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	jthuang: You might be right. Still don't see the wisdom in it myself. Hard to gauge how high the rubber, or lead, pellets would skip when you bounce them. You might end up skipping them into throats & faces. Think it would make more sense to aim knee high? Don't know, I don't think much of most riot control techniques. Don't think there are any good ways to stop a riot once it starts.