Will i get proper expansion at lower velocities, JHP

NoleMan · May 18, 2009, 03:29 PM

I've been loading Remington 9mm 124 grian JHP, with 4.6 grains of Unique, averaging 1000 FPS, out of a 4.1 inch barrel. I happen to also own some factory produced 9mm Remington UMC +P JHP's. As far as i can tell the bullets I bought, in bulk, are identical to the bullets Remington is using on their UMC JHP's. I did a little research on the Remington website and it appears Remington's UMC's have a muzzle velocity of 1155 FPS. Right now, I'm loading my rounds at 1000 FPS. At 1155 FPS, I would be exceeding my handloading manuals maximum recommendation by 5 FPS. Frankly, with a regular, non- +p casing, I dont' wnat to get near that.

My question is, will i get proper expansion out of my JHP shooting at a mere 1000 FPS? I'd imagine I'd lose some expansion...your thoughts

Sport45 · May 18, 2009, 08:41 PM

The only way to really know is to test fire into ballistic gel. Right now all you know is that your bullets look like the others. You really don't know if the lead hardness under the jacket is the same or not.

That'll Do · May 18, 2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoleMan

Frankly, with a regular, non- +p casing, I dont' wnat to get near that.

Just to clarify, in 9mm Luger, there is no physical difference between cases marked "+P" or "+P+" and ones that aren't marked as such.

And Sport45 is right, unless you test them, you won't know if they expand properly at low velocity.

rg1 · May 18, 2009, 09:19 PM

Why did you pick 4.6 grains? That load is ok if it cycles your pistols and accuracy is what you want but you can easily up the charge to 5.0-5.1 without running into pressure. That's my experience anyway with Unique with several different 124 grain bullets. 5.0 grains should get you to almost 1100fps. That load of 5.0 grains with copper jacketed hollow points shoots well with no pressure signs in 2 pistols and 1 9MM carbine. At 5.0 grains you're still .4-.5 grains away from a near maximum load. You could try some old phone books soaked overnight in a bucket of water for a comparison of factory versus your loads. Not scientific but it would give a comparison.

VaFisher · May 19, 2009, 06:25 AM

9mm is allready a very weak round so slowing it down you will not get the expansion comparible to most rounds.
I saw a hog shot 13 time a few years back and not the first round made it past the fat layer on this animal. When I saw this I decided then the round was a very weak round and have not used it myself after that. I do know there are many that like this round because of it's low recoil but seeing what I saw explains to me why.

freakshow10mm · May 19, 2009, 06:38 AM

The 9mm produces similar muzzle energy as the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP.

WESHOOT2 · May 19, 2009, 07:12 AM

Case capacity varies, both by brand, and in some instances between standard and +P/+P+ cases.
Sometimes you'll see reference to "water capacity".

As for velocity required for expansion, every bullet has a threshold velocity.

So, to the OP, you may get expansion at 1,000fps, and you may get more when driving the bullet faster.
What is "proper"?

NoleMan · May 19, 2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Case capacity varies, both by brand, and in some instances between standard and +P/+P+ cases.
Sometimes you'll see reference to "water capacity".

As for velocity required for expansion, every bullet has a threshold velocity.

So, to the OP, you may get expansion at 1,000fps, and you may get more when driving the bullet faster.
What is "proper"?

Proper, would be the same as the Remington UMC +P. I'm using the same bullet Remington uses in their UMC, so one would assume, if i match Remington's velocity (I'm sure they tested what velocity gets the best expansion), i should get maximum expansion.

NoleMan · May 19, 2009, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Why did you pick 4.6 grains? That load is ok if it cycles your pistols and accuracy is what you want but you can easily up the charge to 5.0-5.1 without running into pressure. That's my experience anyway with Unique with several different 124 grain bullets. 5.0 grains should get you to almost 1100fps. That load of 5.0 grains with copper jacketed hollow points shoots well with no pressure signs in 2 pistols and 1 9MM carbine. At 5.0 grains you're still .4-.5 grains away from a near maximum load. You could try some old phone books soaked overnight in a bucket of water for a comparison of factory versus your loads. Not scientific but it would give a comparison.

The reason I've been hesitant to increase my load is 4.6 grains of Unique is already filling up the casing over 3/4's full. I figured if I fill the casing up any more, the powder will get compacted. If you don't mind me asking, what is the overall length of your round, on average, using 5.0 grains of Unique, in a 9mm casing. Mine are coming out at around 1.075...again, the same length as the Remington UMC's.

rg1 · May 19, 2009, 05:20 PM

Good idea to use the overall length of the original factory round. I seat 124gr
FMJ's to 1.150-1.160" depending on the brand. 124 JHP's I load I seat to 1.120" but duplicating the factory round overall length is good. In my testing I found all 124 grain bullets to be a mild load at 4.8 grains. I worked up to 5.1 grains of Unique and found that it shoots good, to point of aim in my guns, and is not a maximum load. Just that your loads at 1000 are a bit slow and can be increased a little. Unique filling the case well is one thing I like about it. Not a chance of double charging a case. It won't hurt anything or cause problems compacting the powder a little with Unique and 9MM cases. One shooters info says 5.5 grains of Unique with RP 124 JHP gives 1155fps seated to 1.120". You may not want to go to this level but just for info. Nothing wrong with your load again, just that you can raise the speed a little without problems with over pressure.

NoleMan · May 19, 2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Good idea to use the overall length of the original factory round. I seat 124gr
FMJ's to 1.150-1.160" depending on the brand. 124 JHP's I load I seat to 1.120" but duplicating the factory round overall length is good. In my testing I found all 124 grain bullets to be a mild load at 4.8 grains. I worked up to 5.1 grains of Unique and found that it shoots good, to point of aim in my guns, and is not a maximum load. Just that your loads at 1000 are a bit slow and can be increased a little. Unique filling the case well is one thing I like about it. Not a chance of double charging a case. It won't hurt anything or cause problems compacting the powder a little with Unique and 9MM cases. One shooters info says 5.5 grains of Unique with RP 124 JHP gives 1155fps seated to 1.120". You may not want to go to this level but just for info. Nothing wrong with your load again, just that you can raise the speed a little without problems with over pressure.

Yeah, I think I'm going to use 4.9-5.1 grains of Unique (the disk charge varies). I did a test where I flared the case, charged it with powder, and then set a bullet on top of the powder. My numbers gave me an OAL of approx 1.125-1.135. So i figure, 1.140 would be ideal (with no powder being compacted). My only concern is am I seating the bulllet enough? I know max spec has the overall length at 1.169, which I'm well under. Really, the only way to know is try it out, I guess.

PCJim · May 20, 2009, 05:12 PM

I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't check the manual but I am pretty certain 1.169" COL is the spec with a FMJ, not a JHP. I'd suggest you keep your JHP rounds at the same COL as the factory JHPs for reliable operation.

Ozzieman · May 20, 2009, 05:30 PM

I'm with PCJim keeping your JHP rounds at the same COL as the factory.
I just checked one of my manuals on 9mm and Hornady states for
124 GR HP 1.060
124 FMJ RN 1.150

arizona98tj · May 20, 2009, 10:15 PM

Quote:

I did a little research on the Remington website and it appears Remington's UMC's have a muzzle velocity of 1155 FPS. Right now, I'm loading my rounds at 1000 FPS. At 1155 FPS, I would be exceeding my handloading manuals maximum recommendation by 5 FPS. Frankly, with a regular, non- +p casing, I dont' wnat to get near that.

NoleMan,
If I understand your comment, I'm thinking you are coming at this a little bass ackwards, or so it seems to me. (If I misunderstood, I apologize now.)

The velocity given in your reloading manual is the end result of a specific combination of primer, powder, bullet, and case produced coming out of a specific gun or test barrel. And most importantly, if that combo was listed as a max load, that max load is the result of it being near or at the max safe pressure for that cartridge.

If you put the same combo in your gun (we will assume you have safely worked up to that max load with no indications of pressure problems), you will most likely not get the same velocity. You might get more, you might get less, but you shouldn't be making any more pressure then what the manual indicated if you followed good reloading procedures and didn't deviate from the recipe.

While some bullets might have a manufacturers suggested max velocity rating for a given barrel twist, you aren't going to run into that when making handgun loads.

So, when you are working up a load, pay attention to pressure signs, the max powder charge indicated in the manual, accuracy on target, etc. The velocity will be what it will be.....and hopefully you will find a loading that will give you the terminal performance you are looking for in a load that you can accurately put on target.

NoleMan · May 22, 2009, 05:32 AM

Update: I loaded 10 rounds of 9mm with approx 5.1 grains of Unique, 124 grain Remington JHP & Federal small pistol primers. All ten casings showed zero signs of too much pressure. I ended up seating the bullet to create an overall length of 1.130, well under maximum spec. I don't think I'd go any shorter than this as it will compress the powder. Anyway, I shot five single rounds, in case i had a kaboom, and then loaded the magazine with the remaining five rounds. Out of this small sample size, I didn't have any FTFeed or FTE. Thank you all for your input on this!

Forgot to mention...with 5.1 grains of Unique I figure I"m getting around 1100 FPS. That's just an approximation though.

May 18, 2009, 03:29 PM	#1
NoleMan Member Join Date: March 13, 2009 Posts: 40	Will i get proper expansion at lower velocities, JHP I've been loading Remington 9mm 124 grian JHP, with 4.6 grains of Unique, averaging 1000 FPS, out of a 4.1 inch barrel. I happen to also own some factory produced 9mm Remington UMC +P JHP's. As far as i can tell the bullets I bought, in bulk, are identical to the bullets Remington is using on their UMC JHP's. I did a little research on the Remington website and it appears Remington's UMC's have a muzzle velocity of 1155 FPS. Right now, I'm loading my rounds at 1000 FPS. At 1155 FPS, I would be exceeding my handloading manuals maximum recommendation by 5 FPS. Frankly, with a regular, non- +p casing, I dont' wnat to get near that. My question is, will i get proper expansion out of my JHP shooting at a mere 1000 FPS? I'd imagine I'd lose some expansion...your thoughts

May 18, 2009, 08:41 PM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The only way to really know is to test fire into ballistic gel. Right now all you know is that your bullets look like the others. You really don't know if the lead hardness under the jacket is the same or not. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 19, 2009, 07:12 AM	#7
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	actually Case capacity varies, both by brand, and in some instances between standard and +P/+P+ cases. Sometimes you'll see reference to "water capacity". As for velocity required for expansion, every bullet has a threshold velocity. So, to the OP, you may get expansion at 1,000fps, and you may get more when driving the bullet faster. What is "proper"? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

May 18, 2009, 09:19 PM	#4
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Why did you pick 4.6 grains? That load is ok if it cycles your pistols and accuracy is what you want but you can easily up the charge to 5.0-5.1 without running into pressure. That's my experience anyway with Unique with several different 124 grain bullets. 5.0 grains should get you to almost 1100fps. That load of 5.0 grains with copper jacketed hollow points shoots well with no pressure signs in 2 pistols and 1 9MM carbine. At 5.0 grains you're still .4-.5 grains away from a near maximum load. You could try some old phone books soaked overnight in a bucket of water for a comparison of factory versus your loads. Not scientific but it would give a comparison.

May 19, 2009, 06:25 AM	#5
VaFisher Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2006 Posts: 596	9mm is allready a very weak round so slowing it down you will not get the expansion comparible to most rounds. I saw a hog shot 13 time a few years back and not the first round made it past the fat layer on this animal. When I saw this I decided then the round was a very weak round and have not used it myself after that. I do know there are many that like this round because of it's low recoil but seeing what I saw explains to me why.

May 19, 2009, 06:38 AM	#6
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	The 9mm produces similar muzzle energy as the 40 S&W and the 45 ACP.

May 19, 2009, 05:20 PM	#10
rg1 Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2001 Posts: 1,125	Good idea to use the overall length of the original factory round. I seat 124gr FMJ's to 1.150-1.160" depending on the brand. 124 JHP's I load I seat to 1.120" but duplicating the factory round overall length is good. In my testing I found all 124 grain bullets to be a mild load at 4.8 grains. I worked up to 5.1 grains of Unique and found that it shoots good, to point of aim in my guns, and is not a maximum load. Just that your loads at 1000 are a bit slow and can be increased a little. Unique filling the case well is one thing I like about it. Not a chance of double charging a case. It won't hurt anything or cause problems compacting the powder a little with Unique and 9MM cases. One shooters info says 5.5 grains of Unique with RP 124 JHP gives 1155fps seated to 1.120". You may not want to go to this level but just for info. Nothing wrong with your load again, just that you can raise the speed a little without problems with over pressure.

May 20, 2009, 05:12 PM	#12
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	I'm not at home at the moment, so I can't check the manual but I am pretty certain 1.169" COL is the spec with a FMJ, not a JHP. I'd suggest you keep your JHP rounds at the same COL as the factory JHPs for reliable operation.

May 20, 2009, 05:30 PM	#13
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	I'm with PCJim keeping your JHP rounds at the same COL as the factory. I just checked one of my manuals on 9mm and Hornady states for 124 GR HP 1.060 124 FMJ RN 1.150

May 22, 2009, 05:32 AM	#15
NoleMan Member Join Date: March 13, 2009 Posts: 40	Update: I loaded 10 rounds of 9mm with approx 5.1 grains of Unique, 124 grain Remington JHP & Federal small pistol primers. All ten casings showed zero signs of too much pressure. I ended up seating the bullet to create an overall length of 1.130, well under maximum spec. I don't think I'd go any shorter than this as it will compress the powder. Anyway, I shot five single rounds, in case i had a kaboom, and then loaded the magazine with the remaining five rounds. Out of this small sample size, I didn't have any FTFeed or FTE. Thank you all for your input on this! Forgot to mention...with 5.1 grains of Unique I figure I"m getting around 1100 FPS. That's just an approximation though.