Revolver Use in PPC and IDPA

Gary H · April 30, 2001, 04:16 PM

My wife is considering joining me for our first PPC and eventually IDPA. She is extremely small and can not rack any semi-automatic handgun. She has a Ruger SP-101 with five shots, but it seems that she would be better with six, seven, or an eight shot revolver. The local PPC seems to use a maximum of six shots before reload. I believe that the IDPA uses ten. It seems to me that the five shot Ruger will not work, but where do we go from there? Is it better to buy an eight shot revolver, but then how do you load six and reliably shoot six without empty chambers? Any suggestions from the revolver guys out there? Is 38 powerful enough, or will she need to load +P, or 357 magnum?

One other question. I'm going to have a problem finding another revolver that is California legal. Weigand has his interchangeable barrels, which would allow me to lighten my seven shot 686 by installing a short barrel. Does this sort of thing toss you out of stock competition?

Thanks...

[Edited by Gary H on 04-30-2001 at 09:12 PM]

at2000 · April 30, 2001, 08:23 PM

Gary, I am considering using an SP-101 for IDPA. So what if it puts me at a disadvantage? I would like to shoot what I carry. If there are any experienced IDPA shooters out there who think this is a terrible idea, please let me know.

9x45 · April 30, 2001, 09:55 PM

5-shot wheelguns are a dis-advantage for IDPA because the courses of fire are not designed that way, good holsters are not readily available, and you will slow things down to a crawl for reloads. Imagine shooting the classifier with a 5-holer, the first course of fire you would have to reload 10 times! 10 times for the 2nd and 10 times for the 3rd course. Most clubs also do not do 'back-up' gun stages. If you must have a revolver to shoot IDPA, you only need a 4" S&W686, no magnums, the Stock Service Revolver division has a 120,000 power floor. No matter how many holes a wheelgun has, you only shoot 6 in IDPA.

Ned Roundtree · April 30, 2001, 10:16 PM

(IDPA) Nix on the five shot revolver unless for bug course. But we don't shoot bug that often. Remember though max for pistol is ten, the max for revolver is six. You can have seven or eight shot revolver, but most you can load is six rounds per (IDPA). Also for revolver class your barrel should not be more than 5" long. But the ranks of revolver class are growing.

Mikey · May 1, 2001, 06:21 AM

You might want to nix the 5" revo as well. IDPA has decided that 5" revos will not be allowed after 2002.

For IDPA you only need a six shot revolver with 4" or less barrel. Trying to download a 7 or 8 shooter is frustrating at best. Very few mods are allowed and most of those are action enhancements. Changes to the outside are pretty much limited to sights and grips.

If you haven't bought her gun already, go to http://www.idpa.com and read the rules regarding revolvers. Most IDPA shooters use the S&W 625 (45 ACP with moon clips). Others use typical revos in 357/38 and sppedloaders. A few of us "outlaws" are using the S&W 610 (10mm with moon clips) and shooting 40 cal in them

Mikey

IamNOTaNUT · May 1, 2001, 11:17 AM

Most of the answers thus far have been in reference to IDPA, so I will address your PPC application. Don't do it.

All of the stages of fire are set up for a 6 shot pistol. For example, 6 rounds in 12 seconds, or 12 rounds in 20 seconds. It would be very difficult to do this type of match with a 5 shot revolver.

Most of the guys that I have seen shooting the outrageously high scores are shooting K-frame smiths with 6 inch barrels and aristocrat sights. This type of gun would not be allowed in IDPA. But, many people are able to shoot just fine with a 4 inch revolver with standard sights.

If you are in it to win it, specialized guns have an advantage. If you are in it to improve your proficiency and have some fun, get a 4 inch six shot revolver and you can use it for both types of match.

Gary H · May 3, 2001, 01:10 AM

Thanks... I'll take a look at IDPA rules and look for a six shot revolver with 4", or less barrel.

jthuang · May 4, 2001, 02:36 PM

Gary,

If you want to "compete with what you carry" ask if your club runs the Back Up Gun (BUG) division. My IDPA gun is a S&W M342 AirLite Ti (5 shot) and one IDPA club in my area offers the BUG division. If there are no clubs that offer BUG, you can either shoot for fun (i.e., not for score) or look into a 6 shooter.

HTH,

Justin

Hard Ball · May 4, 2001, 03:03 PM

If she could handle a six shot K frame" revolver" S&W or Ruger and use speed loaders she could do quite well/

smoney · May 4, 2001, 08:02 PM

what does a revolver have to be to be california legal?

no revolver should be over 6 shots for competition, makes things simpler, ICORE had a 6 shot division, USPSA, IDPA, and PPC are all 6 shot neutral, or max load/shoot six before reloads.

happy shooting... i have a 686 4" i am parting with made in 1988. again, not sure of the CA laws.

Gary H · May 14, 2001, 12:10 PM

Rather than buy another revolver, we purchased a Glock 35 for Amy and she has started to weight lift. She can handle the 35. This seemed to be a good result.

Gary H · January 7, 2002, 06:40 PM

Guys, thanks for all of your help.

The Glock 35 has had every modification and is great. Amy hates it. So, we are back to the revolver, so all of your efforts and advice has been appreciated. This has been a start and stop affair, with many unexpected turns.

Jim Watson · January 7, 2002, 09:23 PM

I recommend Amy look at a S&W 6-shot 4" .38 or .357. Probably a K-frame M-15, 19, 66, or 67. Maybe an L-frame 586 or 686 if the weight training is working for her, the added weight will be steadier and reduce felt recoil. The shorter sight radius may hamper her a bit at PPC, but as of October, 4" will be the maximum revolver barrel length for IDPA.

PPC main match ammo will be .38 target wadcutters - 148 gr at 750 fps, any RN or SWC for PPC distinguished.

IDPA ammo must make power factor 125, usually a 158 gr RN for easy speedloading at 792+ fps. This is usually a standard .38 Special load of the old "Police Special" variety, although I have seen .357 Magnums that had to have .38 +P to make power factor. Recoil is light to very moderate.

There are different grips available to suit hand size. The Hogue is about the slimmest, although I don't like the finger grooves. I still use them for my medium-small hands.

A trigger job and springset will make operation easier. A holster (Blade-tech, Talon Tactical, and likely others, make specific holsters for women.) a speedloader carrier, and a hatful of speedloaders, preferably Safariland Comp II or III, JetLoader, or SL Variant will complete the outfit.

The Weigand barrel set would not likely be allowed in IDPA Stock Service Revolver - and that is the only revolver category there.
Heck, at the price of police tradeins, she could very well have a 4" and a 6" revolver both for the price of many common autos.

Welcome aboard, Amy.

WESHOOT2 · January 8, 2002, 11:26 AM

Suggest 4" stainless Securtity Six as close in size to SP; same maunaul of arms, same robust nature.
Holsters, speedloaders, sundry equipment readily available, and she may end up carrying it instead.

Forget winning 'game', practice for real world makes more sense..........

RickB · January 9, 2002, 04:29 PM

She's strong enough to handle a DA trigger, but can't rack a slide? I don't much like Glocks either, so don't let that stop you from trying a different auto. A 1911-pattern pistol, loaded to wimpy competition power factors, can use a 12#-14# recoil spring, and if the hammer is thumb-cocked before racking the slide, the racking is pretty darn easy.

jason10mm · January 11, 2002, 11:53 AM

Just let her shoot what she wants. Most places I've shot are not sticklers for the rules and make exceptions. She may never win the competition or compete at a state match, but she will have the fun of competing and maybe learning some skills that could save her life. Besides, who is going to deny a petite woman the opportunity to shoot a gun??? Damn, if only every woman shot, this country would be a much safer place. LAter.

Gary H · January 11, 2002, 06:21 PM

Jason:

Sounds good to me.

Salt · January 17, 2002, 03:26 AM

I recommend that you get her a S&W M10 .38 Special revolver. You can buy these retired cop guns for under $200 at most gunshops.

The .38 is fine for defense and competition.

Gary H · June 17, 2002, 11:54 AM

After a great deal of trying this gun and that, as per above suggestions, Amy has just purchased an old S&W M66 4" and is having a gunsmith go over it and lighten the trigger. We got sidetracked along the way with shooting shotguns at those little clay critters, but are back on track. Now, finding a shotgun for such a small person was a real challenge, but she shoots the pants off of me and has lots of fun.

May 4, 2001, 08:02 PM	#10
smoney Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 1999 Location: WV, USA Posts: 136	what does a revolver have to be to be california legal? no revolver should be over 6 shots for competition, makes things simpler, ICORE had a 6 shot division, USPSA, IDPA, and PPC are all 6 shot neutral, or max load/shoot six before reloads. happy shooting... i have a 686 4" i am parting with made in 1988. again, not sure of the CA laws. __________________ Visit our online store at www.1stoptacticalgear.com

January 8, 2002, 11:26 AM	#14
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	CLOSE TO SP-101 Suggest 4" stainless Securtity Six as close in size to SP; same maunaul of arms, same robust nature. Holsters, speedloaders, sundry equipment readily available, and she may end up carrying it instead. Forget winning 'game', practice for real world makes more sense.......... __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

April 30, 2001, 04:16 PM	#1
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	My wife is considering joining me for our first PPC and eventually IDPA. She is extremely small and can not rack any semi-automatic handgun. She has a Ruger SP-101 with five shots, but it seems that she would be better with six, seven, or an eight shot revolver. The local PPC seems to use a maximum of six shots before reload. I believe that the IDPA uses ten. It seems to me that the five shot Ruger will not work, but where do we go from there? Is it better to buy an eight shot revolver, but then how do you load six and reliably shoot six without empty chambers? Any suggestions from the revolver guys out there? Is 38 powerful enough, or will she need to load +P, or 357 magnum? One other question. I'm going to have a problem finding another revolver that is California legal. Weigand has his interchangeable barrels, which would allow me to lighten my seven shot 686 by installing a short barrel. Does this sort of thing toss you out of stock competition? Thanks... [Edited by Gary H on 04-30-2001 at 09:12 PM]

April 30, 2001, 08:23 PM	#2
at2000 Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2000 Posts: 133	Gary, I am considering using an SP-101 for IDPA. So what if it puts me at a disadvantage? I would like to shoot what I carry. If there are any experienced IDPA shooters out there who think this is a terrible idea, please let me know.

April 30, 2001, 09:55 PM	#3
9x45 Senior Member Join Date: January 14, 2000 Location: Southern California Posts: 1,089	5-shot wheelguns are a dis-advantage for IDPA because the courses of fire are not designed that way, good holsters are not readily available, and you will slow things down to a crawl for reloads. Imagine shooting the classifier with a 5-holer, the first course of fire you would have to reload 10 times! 10 times for the 2nd and 10 times for the 3rd course. Most clubs also do not do 'back-up' gun stages. If you must have a revolver to shoot IDPA, you only need a 4" S&W686, no magnums, the Stock Service Revolver division has a 120,000 power floor. No matter how many holes a wheelgun has, you only shoot 6 in IDPA.

April 30, 2001, 10:16 PM	#4
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	(IDPA) Nix on the five shot revolver unless for bug course. But we don't shoot bug that often. Remember though max for pistol is ten, the max for revolver is six. You can have seven or eight shot revolver, but most you can load is six rounds per (IDPA). Also for revolver class your barrel should not be more than 5" long. But the ranks of revolver class are growing.

May 1, 2001, 06:21 AM	#5
Mikey Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Tennessee Posts: 885	You might want to nix the 5" revo as well. IDPA has decided that 5" revos will not be allowed after 2002. For IDPA you only need a six shot revolver with 4" or less barrel. Trying to download a 7 or 8 shooter is frustrating at best. Very few mods are allowed and most of those are action enhancements. Changes to the outside are pretty much limited to sights and grips. If you haven't bought her gun already, go to http://www.idpa.com and read the rules regarding revolvers. Most IDPA shooters use the S&W 625 (45 ACP with moon clips). Others use typical revos in 357/38 and sppedloaders. A few of us "outlaws" are using the S&W 610 (10mm with moon clips) and shooting 40 cal in them Mikey

May 1, 2001, 11:17 AM	#6
IamNOTaNUT Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 477	Most of the answers thus far have been in reference to IDPA, so I will address your PPC application. Don't do it. All of the stages of fire are set up for a 6 shot pistol. For example, 6 rounds in 12 seconds, or 12 rounds in 20 seconds. It would be very difficult to do this type of match with a 5 shot revolver. Most of the guys that I have seen shooting the outrageously high scores are shooting K-frame smiths with 6 inch barrels and aristocrat sights. This type of gun would not be allowed in IDPA. But, many people are able to shoot just fine with a 4 inch revolver with standard sights. If you are in it to win it, specialized guns have an advantage. If you are in it to improve your proficiency and have some fun, get a 4 inch six shot revolver and you can use it for both types of match.

May 3, 2001, 01:10 AM	#7
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Thanks... I'll take a look at IDPA rules and look for a six shot revolver with 4", or less barrel.

May 4, 2001, 02:36 PM	#8
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Gary, If you want to "compete with what you carry" ask if your club runs the Back Up Gun (BUG) division. My IDPA gun is a S&W M342 AirLite Ti (5 shot) and one IDPA club in my area offers the BUG division. If there are no clubs that offer BUG, you can either shoot for fun (i.e., not for score) or look into a 6 shooter. HTH, Justin

May 4, 2001, 03:03 PM	#9
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	If she could handle a six shot K frame" revolver" S&W or Ruger and use speed loaders she could do quite well/

May 14, 2001, 12:10 PM	#11
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Rather than buy another revolver, we purchased a Glock 35 for Amy and she has started to weight lift. She can handle the 35. This seemed to be a good result.

January 7, 2002, 06:40 PM	#12
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Guys, thanks for all of your help. The Glock 35 has had every modification and is great. Amy hates it. So, we are back to the revolver, so all of your efforts and advice has been appreciated. This has been a start and stop affair, with many unexpected turns.

January 7, 2002, 09:23 PM	#13
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	I recommend Amy look at a S&W 6-shot 4" .38 or .357. Probably a K-frame M-15, 19, 66, or 67. Maybe an L-frame 586 or 686 if the weight training is working for her, the added weight will be steadier and reduce felt recoil. The shorter sight radius may hamper her a bit at PPC, but as of October, 4" will be the maximum revolver barrel length for IDPA. PPC main match ammo will be .38 target wadcutters - 148 gr at 750 fps, any RN or SWC for PPC distinguished. IDPA ammo must make power factor 125, usually a 158 gr RN for easy speedloading at 792+ fps. This is usually a standard .38 Special load of the old "Police Special" variety, although I have seen .357 Magnums that had to have .38 +P to make power factor. Recoil is light to very moderate. There are different grips available to suit hand size. The Hogue is about the slimmest, although I don't like the finger grooves. I still use them for my medium-small hands. A trigger job and springset will make operation easier. A holster (Blade-tech, Talon Tactical, and likely others, make specific holsters for women.) a speedloader carrier, and a hatful of speedloaders, preferably Safariland Comp II or III, JetLoader, or SL Variant will complete the outfit. The Weigand barrel set would not likely be allowed in IDPA Stock Service Revolver - and that is the only revolver category there. Heck, at the price of police tradeins, she could very well have a 4" and a 6" revolver both for the price of many common autos. Welcome aboard, Amy.

January 9, 2002, 04:29 PM	#15
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	She's strong enough to handle a DA trigger, but can't rack a slide? I don't much like Glocks either, so don't let that stop you from trying a different auto. A 1911-pattern pistol, loaded to wimpy competition power factors, can use a 12#-14# recoil spring, and if the hammer is thumb-cocked before racking the slide, the racking is pretty darn easy.

January 11, 2002, 11:53 AM	#16
jason10mm Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2001 Location: San Antonio, Tx Posts: 230	Just let her shoot what she wants. Most places I've shot are not sticklers for the rules and make exceptions. She may never win the competition or compete at a state match, but she will have the fun of competing and maybe learning some skills that could save her life. Besides, who is going to deny a petite woman the opportunity to shoot a gun??? Damn, if only every woman shot, this country would be a much safer place. LAter.

January 11, 2002, 06:21 PM	#17
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Jason: Sounds good to me.

January 17, 2002, 03:26 AM	#18
Salt Junior member Join Date: December 26, 2001 Posts: 673	I recommend that you get her a S&W M10 .38 Special revolver. You can buy these retired cop guns for under $200 at most gunshops. The .38 is fine for defense and competition.

June 17, 2002, 11:54 AM	#19
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	After a great deal of trying this gun and that, as per above suggestions, Amy has just purchased an old S&W M66 4" and is having a gunsmith go over it and lighten the trigger. We got sidetracked along the way with shooting shotguns at those little clay critters, but are back on track. Now, finding a shotgun for such a small person was a real challenge, but she shoots the pants off of me and has lots of fun.