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Old June 3, 2010, 02:28 PM   #1
JohnH1963
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Real Life Video - Man with a pistol approaches you in a hostile manner while stopped

This is a good youtube video of a real life situation. You are racing your motorcycle along the highway probably cutting people off and angering someone on a nice summer day. You are having fun, but probably angering other motorists at the same time.

All of a sudden, a man with a pistol jumps out of their vehicle while you are stopped at a light. He approaches you in a hostile manner and after several seconds identifies himself as a police officer, but has no badge to show and his car is a Chevy that isnt commonly used by the area police. No lights or sirens are on his vehicle nor any markings.

You know you were probably angering some motorists and a lot of folks carry weapons around Maryland and the Southern part of the United States. This man might be reacting out of anger and not being truthful about being a police officer.

So what do you do?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNcDGqzAB30
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Old June 3, 2010, 02:52 PM   #2
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Hrmmm, I wonder where and what the REST of the video is.

IMO the officer should have called it in and let an on-duty officer with a MARKED vehicle handle it. Jumping out armed like that looks like road rage and if it were done someplace other than Maryland it might have had a very different outcome.

On a different note, the "you can't video tape me" argument is LAME.
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Old June 3, 2010, 02:57 PM   #3
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A good start would be to not be doing stupid stuff in public that endangers others.

Only a lawyer with knowledge of the state statute and case law regarding recording other people can assess whether that charge will stick, but I have to agree with the guy that the identification of the police officer was sorely lacking. Anyone can say they are a cop - show me your badge if you want my respect and cooperation while you are pointing a gun at me. Drawing a weapon for a routine traffic stop, especially a motorcyclist in which case his hands (and the lack of a weapon) are visible, seems excessive to me, and combined with the lack of valid identification in the video, I don't blame the rider for feeling apprehensive and backing up.

We need to keep in mind that we are seeing only a few seconds of video, though. And I am interested in hearing what the LEOs on TFL have to say about this.
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Old June 3, 2010, 03:01 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TailGator
A good start would be to not be doing stupid stuff in public that endangers others.

Exactly.


The first thing I do is that I DON'T.

Funny thing how acting like an idiot can get you in trouble and not acting like an idiot almost never does.

I won't even address "what you do" in this situation because the answer is DON'T.
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Old June 3, 2010, 04:02 PM   #5
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I totally agree on the above posts. Don't do it. But, the question is what would I do if?? Well, if not carrying I would probably do exactly what the rider did. If I was the outcome would have been worse, that whole encounter happened FAST. If road rage was on the brain I would have been in fear for my life and reacted by drawing (or attemting to) but as fast as that was I don't know how smart that would be while straddling a bike. I'm no LEO but that officer did not look like one to begin with so very sticky situation for both parties.
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Old June 3, 2010, 04:18 PM   #6
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No time to react for me, maybe dial 911. As a biker I have ridden a bit aggressivly at times. Dont wheelie or do stoppies but do ride fast.

Glad I dont live in MD thats for sure, beutiful state with nice roads.
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Old June 3, 2010, 06:33 PM   #7
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close the topic thread...

To me, this posted topic should be closed. It's a non issue. The sworn LEO while in plainclothes & an unmarked vehicle was in the process of making an arrest and did NOT point the firearm at the subject.

I doubt any TFL members were there in person or witnessed the events in question. The "what if" aspects are bogus.
This is reckless & stupid. It's like saying what if you see 4 LE patrol cars in a Dennys parking lot at 800am, put on a ski mask and pull out 2 loaded Desert Eagle .50AE pistols then run inside the restaurant. What would happen?....

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Old June 3, 2010, 08:13 PM   #8
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ah man! That total BS if you ask me.
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Old June 3, 2010, 08:24 PM   #9
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If your caught in a bad situation in MD, you wouldnt have a gun if you follow the law. Sad but true.
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Old June 3, 2010, 08:26 PM   #10
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Well, if that guy wasnt a cop, I guess you would be in more trouble. But typically, not acting like a fool is the best way to avoid a problem like the one in the video.
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Old June 3, 2010, 08:40 PM   #11
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Dunno that I have a problem with the state trooper's actions, all things considered. Some superbike riders think your highways are their playground. Cleaning up the messes gets a little tiresome. I disagree with the recording law and the charge because in TX, (OK, anywhere!) if you're in a public place, especially a public servant, it's best to assume that anything you do will be electronically monitored and recorded.
Back to the OP question-I'm not a dumb*** with a death wish so I don't feel qualified to address it.
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Old June 3, 2010, 08:49 PM   #12
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not showing the whole story

I saw this complete video elsewhere and there was a marked car who tried to pull him over right behind him. This plainclothes officer was trying to prevent the guy from running. Adrenaline.
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Old June 3, 2010, 08:52 PM   #13
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I saw this video a long time back. And I honestly didn't have any problem with what the police officer did. It might be due to my own bias against crotch rocket drivers who harass me on the highway, but I didn't see anything especially wrong. The way that I see it: the police officer thought that the only way to stop the rider was to present his pistol. That pistol was never pointed at anyone, but used as a means of authority. I've met a lot of "riders" in my days, and alot of them (that I know) would yield to a badge instantly, but in this case, I'd assume this rider would not yield, like other riders I know (given his using a helmet cam to make a video of his riding, he probably wanted to hot-dog and be a jerk on his bike, and if a cop flashed a badge in a non-uniform encounter, the biker would probably have taken off).

But, like I said: just my bias regarding bikers.

There's always a lot of flak that police officers take for flexing their "power" regarding guns and civil rights, and I honestly side with the cop in this case. If I were the biker, I'd just stfu and comply.
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Old June 3, 2010, 09:14 PM   #14
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peetzakilla nailed it. Don't be a nether orifice and you won't get in trouble. This isn't a "submit! obey!" issue. This isn't a JBT issue. The clown was resembling a certain feminine hygiene product and got treated as such. You want thrills? You just found them. Thanks for playing; sit down and shut up.
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Old June 3, 2010, 10:41 PM   #15
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You know guys who screw around on Bikes and cut people of at times wind up as smears in the road. I ride a Harley and i love it. If you are a pea brain on a bike then you invite trouble.
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Old June 3, 2010, 11:07 PM   #16
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Just because the guy on the bike was wrong doesn't mean the cop isn't an idiot.

The cop should be suspended. Pulling a gun while in plain cloths in an unmarked car over a speeding ticket? I can't believe the police aren't backing down. The guy said his officer acted appropriately. Come on, there was no reason for the cop to draw his gun. The idiot cop could have caused a shooting.

Some cops, some cops become cops because the crave power and are too dumb and lazy to achieve it any other way. Many other cops become cops to help make the world a little safer. This guy belongs to the first group.
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Old June 4, 2010, 12:30 AM   #17
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When I authored this thread, I hoped we could discuss the actions of both parties in a logical and informed way. If we watch the video and discuss it then maybe we can learn something from it.

First, the guy on the motorcycle. In the video, you see him slowly backing off after he recognizes the threat. Is that the appropriate action to take when an angry armed man is approaching?

Second, the guy getting out of the car.
- He didnt identify himself until several seconds after the fact and never showed any credentials. No revolving light on his vehicle...

- Was it wise for him to get out of the car facing down a motorcycle that can do 0 to 60 in 4-5 seconds? What if the driver on the motorcycle paniced after he saw the weapon? The weapon could have made the situation worse. A motorcycle is more complicated to operate then a car. A paniced driver might accidentally accelerate unknowingly after being frightened. Could he have been just as effective not getting out of the car and simply flashing a badge ordering the driver off the motorcycle?

- Was it wise to pull a pistol in public when there was no obvious reason to do so?

- Was this the proper level of force? The guy was speeding and driving wrecklessly, but he was not armed.

When you ask these simple questions, it becomes apparent that there was a lack of common sense on both sides in my personal opinion.
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Old June 4, 2010, 12:48 AM   #18
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One of us would have gotten shot. That should have been handled by a guy with a uniform and badge.
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Old June 4, 2010, 01:01 AM   #19
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Looks like a training issue on the cops behalf. I really hate when cop screw up and try to blame others. In the video the lady said all he got was a speeding ticket and it and everything was fine. Until he posted the video and now he's facing jail time. The cop made an ass of himself and it got caught on tape. Seems like the only persons who's life was endangered was the unarmed person. and I'm still trying to figure out how u tape someone against their will if they run in front of the camera its not like he hit rec when he saw the cop.
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Old June 4, 2010, 01:26 AM   #20
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Hi,
I ride a BANDIT 1200, and although I am very careful and considerate on teh road, I can and know how to ride "Like I have just stolen it".
I also carry my ECD in such a way that I can (with gloves on) draw and fire.

I hve given the matter some thought, because in some areas cyclists have been mugged, and sometimes you can only ride slowly (very slowly) due to road conditions or trafic, then criminals take advantage of this.

so If I am stationary I have two (or maybe 3) options:

1. reach for my gun.
2. ride away, getting other cars between me and him.
3. if space allows it, point the bike at him, open the throttle and put a 250 Kg bike (with my 85 Kg added) on top of him, this may have a calming effect and allow me to seek another solution.

Road rage here is a reality, and is often triggered by stupid things. more than once people have been dragged out of cars and murdered, but so far I have not heard of an incident where guns were used. the most "popular' items used to attack motorists are streering wheel locking-bars, hockey stiks and wheel-spanners...

Another point, since I am a honest person, and there are at the moment somwhere around 5000 cops in Jail, (offesens such as murder, abdution, robbery while in uniform, not petty stuff like taking bribes) another 10000 at various stages of investigation and trials (out of a total of just over 200000) if a cop ever points a gun towards me, he will be looking at the muzzle of my gun. If I have done nothing wrong no way I will let anyone approach me with a firearm, regardless of what he is wearing. (last weekend a cop was arrested whlle fleeing from a murder scene in yet another farm attack, the murder weapon was a police-issue handgun)

Update,

I have only watched the video now. that trooper would have had a hard time getting my tyre marks off him.
I am shocked at the dirty-tricks they are trying to use with "illegal" monitoring. one does not need a permit to film anything he wants unless it is legally restricted and marked. the officer's face is smudged so he is not recognizable, and since he was in an unmarked car and without uniform they cannot prove" intent" either. the fact is that if the cop had not acted like he did he would have not being filmed...

And here I was, thinking that only the cops her act like bullies....

Brgds,

Danny

Last edited by Dannyl; June 4, 2010 at 06:17 AM.
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Old June 4, 2010, 06:20 AM   #21
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Here's the full video, but no sound. It's easy enough to piece it all together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7PC9cZEWCQ&NR=1

While on the exit ramp, the biker looked back over his left shoulder and saw a car either gaining fast, or that there was a marked car with it's lights on. It's tough to tell what is behind him around 2:59-3:02 in the video.

Here's the part we don't know:

1) Was the marked car following the bike with it's lights on for any portion of the driving time?

2) Did the unmarked car/POV have a light on the dash? We never see the dash so we don't know either way.

I could be totally wrong, but my speculation from how the stop went down is that the marked car was following the bike for some time before the exit and the unmarked car/POV was assisting. It wasn't as if the marked car showed up a minute later, no, they arrived at the same time, and the off duty/plainclothes officer put his car in a position to block the bike from fleeing.

When the biker backed up, the off duty/plainclothes officer likely thought "this guy is going to flee." Backing up creates space for the bike to turn right and maneuver behind the Chevy to escape. Most of that area is rural with lots of little backroads.

Now if he really was off duty, then he might not have his badge on him, hence why he didn't flash a badge for identification. You might say "all cops carry their badge all the time," well, I know for a fact that's not true.

So he has a suspect driving very aggressively, well in excess of 100mph, whom he now believes may try to evade a traffic stop, so he pulls his pistol and has it somewhere around low-ready/off to the side. He does this for control, notice he never pointed the gun at the biker. Less than two seconds and he had the weapon at his side, re-holstered in under five.

Should the officer had said "State Police..." as soon as he got out of the car? Probably would have helped. Then again, he's working with a marked/uniformed officer, and from his vantage point it was pretty clear what was going on. Also, in the heat of the moment he may have been more concerned about the biker trying to get away which would have prolonged the chase and endangered all involved.

I don't know the exact legalities of video recording in public, whether LEOs ar involved or not, audio recording or not, so I have no comment on that topic. Perhaps there's a criminal defense lawyer or MD prosecutor on the forum who can chime in on that topic, or somebody will take the time to actually read the Maryland State Traffic Code and cite the specific statutes that pertain. If you don't cite the MD law, then it's just your opinion, and everybody has one.

That said, police don't write the laws, they enforce the laws as they are on the books. If somebody is driving recklessly, the police have an obligation to enforce the laws they observe being broken, and investigate as necessary. This entire mess started with a skinny kid making the decision to draw negative attention to himself through 1) aggressive/dangerous driving and 2) posting a video of it on YouTube. Don't do those two things, and he wouldn't have been faced with an unholstered gun or a felony charge. Too often people cry "woe is me, this isn't right this isn't fair" when really they need to reflect, and think "how could I have acted or handled this situation differently to arrive at a more favorable outcome?" If you're driving 100+mph on the highway, aggressively, you should expect either an angry driver or the police to approach you. To sit there and talk to the news reporter like a broken, abused victim is just absurd.

Some brave, nobel men who were much smarter than me have throughout history said that you cannot change or alter other people's actions, only your own.

As a side note, I used to drive that stretch of I-95 on a regular basis. It's about 20 minutes north east of Baltimore, in a fairly rural area, but bordered by suburbia. I think he was traveling southbound, towards Baltimore and away from where he was likely stationed as part of his military duty, the US Army Aberdeen Proving Ground, which is 5 miles north of exit 80. The police in that area (Harford County) are generally good, and very aggressive when it comes to speeding and DWI/DUI enforcement (not from personal experience, thankfully).

I have no problem with bikers, and I do take extra care to look for bikers. However, bikers who feel the highway is their playground and cars are just obstacles are a real danger to themselves (don't care so much) and others (care a lot). The stretch of 95 from Philly down to DC is rampant with bikers who feel it is their right to roll 120-160mph because they can. While it isn't the leading cause of accidents on the highway, it certainly contributes to a good number of avoidable ones. If bikers or car drivers want to race around and push their machines to the limit there's a place called a race track that's built just for that purpose. Those with any other excuse, set your alarm clock and leave earlier.

Quote:
..his car is a Chevy that isnt commonly used by the area police.
Wrong. Police in that area use Crown Vics, Impalas, Chargers, and Malibus; Expeditions, Explorers and Tahoes. An occasional F-350 or similar HD truck for towing signage. I've seen a couple Camaros and Mustangs, and maybe one or two unmarked pickups and other random cars used for speed enforcement.

Quote:
No lights or sirens are on his vehicle nor any markings.
Unclear. There may have been a single flashing light on the dash, we never saw it. Single flashing lights on the dash are common in the area for volunteer fire fighters, EMTs, Paramedics, and possibly off-duty police both in unmarked cruisers and POVs.

Quote:
..a lot of folks carry weapons around Maryland.
Maryland has some of the tightest carry laws in the country. Open and Concealed carry are considered the same thing. In order for a civilian to carry, you must prove you either 1) carry large sums of money or pharmaceuticals as part of your job on a regular basis or 2) have three documented (with police reports) incidents of threats or physical harassment or 3) have been the victim of a violent crime. Even then, you must apply through the State Police, pass FBI Background checks, and pay fees. Compared to neighbors Pennsylvania, Delaware, New Jersey, West Virginia, and Virginia, far fewer people carry in Maryland. Washington DC is a different case, although carry laws there are currently being reviewed, in conjunction with the Supreme Court review coming out of Chicago.

Finally, for those "tough guys" who would have drawn their gun.. please. This officer already had his pistol out. That's a lose-lose situation. Not to mention the marked police car (or two?) right behind you. You'd get lit up like a Christmas tree. Situational awareness, anybody? Good luck 1) winning that fight and 2) if you survive, defending it in court. Good night!

Last edited by booker_t; June 4, 2010 at 12:32 PM.
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Old June 4, 2010, 08:05 AM   #22
Skans
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My opinion: Sit there and let the angry man shoot you....it's the right thing to do.
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Old June 4, 2010, 08:55 AM   #23
JohnH1963
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Here is a photo still from the video. No badge presented. No identification. The car in the background I believe is a Malibu not commonly used by the police. He just looks like a angry motorist that decided to take things into their own hands.

This just invites the motorcyclist and other members of the public to do something rash.

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Old June 4, 2010, 09:16 AM   #24
booker_t
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John, you're wrong on two counts.

There's a marked state police car right behind the bike, and they do use Malibus in that area. I know from personal experience.
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Old June 4, 2010, 09:17 AM   #25
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Quote:
This just invites the motorcyclist and other members of the public to do something rash.
Regardless of whether the guy's a cop or not, he already has his gun drawn and is well within range of the motorcyclist to quickly point and shoot without aiming. It's not going to be easy for the motorcyclist to do anything "rash" even if he had a loaded gun on him. Ever try to get your wallet out of your back pocket or jacket pocket while on a motorcycle? Noooooo, this guy is in no position to do anything rash.

I think the "angry man" has the drop on the motorcyclist.
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