jacket/mono >100gr 38? and bullet coatings revisited.

[skizzums]

hey guys, I doubt I will have much luck with this venture. I am looking for sub 100gr projectiles for low-recoil 38's. Loading for a new shooter, very recoil sensitive, older female. Some loads in the 110's at minimums were okay, but still not totally "comfortable". as to start, the goal is to get her to ENJOY shooting the LCR. please no comments on 22's or any other pistols. we can make this one work one way or the other. My plan is a couple hundred "coated" casts while practicing and something similar in jacketed form, I know, it doesn't really matter at that weight and size, but lets just humor the idea. Of course the mono specialty companies have a couple options, but the prices are too much to bare, Lehigh and CuttingEdge wanting 70$ for 50 105gr, which I will do, they look like really ice rounds, but in the end that's only 5gr less than the many 110gr popular defense bullet makers.

just wondering if anyone has seen some REALLY light, like 80-90, and jacketed or mono, from a smaller company.


as a follow-up, which won't be terribly difficult, I see several cast/coated companies selling 80-95gr. I do not want these woman to have to deal with ANY leading whatsoever, her and her husband would rather just pay a premium than be scraping lead out of their, some very nice, revolvers.
my question is not so much which vendor to get these bullets, but rather which coatings will be clean shooters no matter what. please note that these will be pushed slow, well... as slow as a 80-90gr allow. I personally cast and PC with very good results excluding one very "rough-bored" snubby, but I would prefer not to cast my own for this. I have several options, but would like to hear the consensus on the coatings options.

after an hour or so of endless coated bullets sites, it appears not much has changed in a year. it seems the options are Hi-Tek(maybe 2 different types?), Molybdenum- now appears to be a "cooked on" dry-lube that doesn't transfer, could be a winner and of course PC. Its seems about 10,000 people have come up with their own "proprietary" poly coat tht is better than the rest. well, I have used lots of P and it's pretty good, whats about hi-tek and the baked moly's? anything better than the other, any reasons to go along? thanks
Missouri Bullet Company = Hi-Tek 2 Extreme Coating
SNS Casting = Hi-Tek "Super Coat"
Precision Bullets = "Black Bullet" encased baked "dry-lube"

We use a proprietary solid dry film lubricant. This is
similar to the moly/poly coatings on the market but
is much tougher. We bake the coating onto the
bullets, then restrike the bullets in carbide dies
after the coating is applied

interesting....
Eggleston Munitions = Polymer Coated Bullets ( I assume this is the same as my own "powder-coat"?) isn't a poly-ester referred to as a poly-mer?

Falcon Bullets = FalCoat Poly Coated

unique and proprietary formulation of poly-based bullet coating

they make it sound good, that's for sure.

Bear Creek Bullets = Moly-Coated. Claim it's a permanent moly coat without transfer of moly to hands, equip even barrels during firing......truth? They have some profiles that I am interested in, would like to hear some personal experience if anyone has tried them

Billy Bullets = Moly-claimed proprietary formulation

MOLY-KOTE is a special lubricant for coating lead alloy bullets. The formula is comprised of molybdenum disulfide in a carrier solution that gives it unique properties.the coating is harder than the lead alloy bullets and melts at a much higher temperature so it stays intact and forms a coating around the bullet much like copper jacket

this one sounds a little TOO interesting. not really any bullets that interest me, more just curious about the "forms a jacket" claim

The Blue Bullets = Poly- coat. claims to be a liquid in house made poly(not powder-coat) double coat....baked. more of the same I suppose, small selection anyway.

[mikld]

I have fired a lot of Precision coated bullets in my 45 ACPs and 9mms, and they are everything the manufacturers say, clean handling, clean shooting and just as accurate as any. I also PC some bullets and for several calibers only one has given me problems with fouling/leading. My striker fired 9mm with upper loads will lead/foul the barrel, mostly the last 3/4" to the muzzle. I haven't dedicated much time to figgerin' it out but I'm confident I would eventually find a remedy.

I load my coated bullets, either Precision black bullets or my PCed bullets using the same methods as I would loading nekkid lead bullets (charges, sizing, etc.).

Just curious, how much would a 36 caliber ball weigh? I have used .44 caliber balls for light "galley" loads in my Magnums and at 15-18 ft they were surprisingly accurate (mebbe 1 1/2"). I load the 123 gr. balls @ .432", lubed with alox, in Magnum brass with a dusting of Bullseye. Kinda like shooting a .22. Gallery loaded balls could be used to get used to shooting, especially a light gun, and regular SD ammo could be loaded in a self defense situation...

[T. O'Heir]

Most sub 100gr projectiles are made for .380 ACP and the like and are .355" diameter. Somebody, not Lyman(I looked) is making a 90 grain .359" RNFP though. There's data for it on Hodgdon' site. Maybe a phone call to them would help. Issue is most cast of that weight are .355" .357 SIG bullets.
Lee makes a 105 SWC mold.
Plan 'B' would be .38 S&W loads in .38 Special cases. 121 grain cast bullets start at 622 fps(up to 856 fps) with Bullseye. Only cast 145's on Hodgdon's site.

[sawdustdad]

I have fired thousands of the Missouri Bullet Company Hi Tek coated 125g bullets in .38 special at 500-600fps. These are soft Brinell 12 made for low velocity. zero leading issues. They sell a 105 g version as well.

Something to think about as far as recoil sensitivity--it's as much about the energy of the bullet leaving the barrel as it is about the mass of the gun. Start with a heavier gun to reduce perceived recoil. Just a thought.

[skizzums]

thank you, disregard the first part. after several hours of searching, i found some in stock 95gr solid hollow-points for less than 50c a piece. i knew they exsisted and who mde them, but theywere out of stock at what seemed to be hundreds of places excluding Natchez(which cannot ship to SE) and a couple foreign places. i could find them loaded just about everywhere, but finally stumbled upon a no-name shop that has a couple bags of 100, very excited, those will be quite fun. as i said, just about every casting company sells 80-105gr 38's, but really wanted at least SOME jacketed, just as a preference to my friend and his wife.

mikld....thanks for round ball suggestion, i would actually like to do that someday just for kicks anyhow, need a reminder sometimes. so when you are comparing PC to the new "impregnated" type moly coats, what kind of difference do you find with clean-up? i mysef have great sucess with PC, generally just a sprinkling of powder dust left in barrel. if you had a choice between "black" bullets and "pc" and money wa not a factor, which would you go with if given the choice of only one or the other?

[skizzums]

well, the gun i already started with. as i previuosly said, selling and buying another gun just isn't going to in the cards for her, at least not right now, so i am tasked with working with what we got and trying some things. i don't think i'll have too much an issue gettin it down to mimick a standard 380 impulse or even less

i think the gun and caliber will be fine. but i also think finding some really puff loads will go a long way to get her to actually enjoy getting some trigger time and help her not aquire a nasty flinch. as she gets some rounds under her belt, i will slowly start upping charges in such slight increments that she will barely notice, and before she knows it she'll be up to 125gr standard loads and not even think twice about it. this worked for my wife anyhow, not quite to the same extreme extreme, but she hated shooting standard lead 38 at first, loaded way below min to the point it was ejjoyable, after getting some confidence, she was up to plus P's pretty quick and she carries a .357 "lite" 110 short-barrel Gold-Dot load, it's got some oomph behind it, but since the fear and jump is gone, she does just fine. i hope, well lets say i am confident, that this approach will work for most recoil-shy new shooters, and will help with flinching habits as well. the only downside, is that light bullets tend to put out a good bit of noise and despite the lack of recoil, that noise can make people percive it diffeently than what they are actually feeling. this wont be of concern with the very light loadings at first, they'll likely have report a little more than a .22, but i will begin inestigating some diffeent density powder to find some that have less of a "in-your-face" report. w'll see.

[sawdustdad]

Well, I was kinda thinking along the lines of using (borrowing) a different heavier gun, not buying a different gun.

[skizzums]

oh, i understand. they have a couple others in the home, but they are a bit TOO large and she shoots them, but tires quickly if i remember the conversation right. but we are talking a 4 or 5" GP100. they had aTaurus as well as a rossi that i also dont think she cared for, but i know they just aquired a charter, but i havent discussed if she has tried it out yet. but we;ll get her used to her pistol, that's the beauty of revlvers and handloading, you can pretty much make it equal the power of anything you want, the versatility is fantastic for situations like these. nt saying it's the most effective route, at least for he time being, but i can usually work up a load that'll get even the most gun-shy folks to enjoy the 38spl

[FITASC]

Have you considered a nice, but used, Model 10 with WCs?

[skizzums]

have you read what I wrote in the OP? I felt like I covered the situation. it doesn't matter if I consider buying a Model 10, that doesn't change the fact that there is an older woman, retirement age, her and her husband have SEVERAL revolvers, BIG, SMALL and just right but she is having ome trouble getting used to the bang/recoil and just shooting in general. this was NOT and equipment thread.........and I personally don't feel how in the world dropping 6-700$ on a Model 10( a fine, good sized piece btw) is going take away her first time shooting jitters. regardless, since I did not see it relevant to the thread since I was not looking for suggestions, but the ultimate goal is a CCW in the future, and that VERY WELL NOT BE POSSIBLE with her chosen caliber/pistol combo. if we can't find loads that will be less intimidating and get her to WANT to practice, a Model 10 is not on the list if the 3" LCR get's ditched, I believe they are leaning toward either a 32 or even a WMR as a back-up if our attempts prove to not yield desired results, but she seems to have the DESIRE and I feel she will be outshooting her husband once she sits a little more comfortable with the exerience. This woman is not my mother/sister/daughter or family of any kind, she, her husband and I, are simply discussing alternative loads so she can ENJOY practicing the basics and then her and her husband can decide if an up/downgrade is required. thanks for attempting to put forth a solution though, but it's not the point of the OP or the desire of shooter to throw in the towel just yet. I personally think the LCR in the 3" package is a fine choice but will take some dedication a few hundred rounds of ammo that she can have fun with.

"Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting" is the name of this section. I came for opinions on:
A. Does anyone know of an available source of "jacketed" or "plated", light for caliber projectiles for am kind of, test to see if lighter loads can help this woman get a little more used to her chosen arms.
B. Of the many new companies that have gotten into the alternative bullet "coatings", does anyone have a preference of the limited kinds available, those being: Hi-Tek, which appears they may have two formulations at the moment and I am not sure of the significant differences, if any (good or bad) between the two---(Moly)bdenum appears to have formulations that are cooked into the cast bullets and claim that the old issues of caking and cleaning is no longer a concern( is this fact, fiction...work well, not worth it?) ---Poly coatings....is this simply just the same thing I do in my garage with the esters? or are these so called "proprietary" blends actually offering a better coating with the claimed added lubrication benefits(are any one of the "poly" coats really any different from another, other than some having slight different application processes, it looks like just trying to fancy up the idea of PC, but I could be 100% wrong?)

I felt those were very straight-forward questions, I even included that this was not a discussion about the type of firearm she should or should not have purchased. I know these questions are a little foreign to most, I was not expecting a ton of feedback, but I thought I could possibly get a bite if I put out the bait, and maybe walk out with a understanding of a load/coating/bullet-type that maybe I was not considering, the more brains and cumulative experience available, sometimes,can lead to a good idea.

I am sorry to be rude, I know people generally are trying to help when suggesting that people simply need a different firearm rather than putting in a little effort to learn a platform, I assure you the type of revolver is NOT going to make her magically comfortable with the shooting experience. powder-puff load development is very easy, cheap and kind of fun. if the woman in topic is still not faring well after a few different low-power, custom-tailored "get-her-feet-wet" loads, then I will gladly seek advice, or rather have HER seek advice, on different firearm possibilities. we will cross that bridge if it comes.

[skizzums]

as I said earlier, I did find the bullets I was seeking. going to go with a solid-copper HP in 95gr. I ordered a good bit of them, as I intend to do a little testing to see just how it will handle minimum loadings. I hear stabilization may present a problem, although I am curious to as why, but also data is very limited as 95gr 38's are almost exclusively used in lead-cowboy loads and/or self-defense loading for the folks that adopted the very light/super fast science of limited penetration and impressive looking shallow wounds. I know it's going to take a little tweaking since I plan to do neither of these types of loadings, and I know "cowboy-loads" with a metal bullet can lead to a bad day at the range.

I do have 90gr CAST data, and as you would expect, the starting loads definitely look like they may be pushing the limits on "low-pressures" for a jacketed bullet at just over 7000PSI on some. I am considering that I should probably push them to AT LEAST 10KPSI or possibly even higher like 11 to be safe. as she is a new shooter, I don't want the burden on her to be expected to know what an undercharged load is. Any experts on low-pressures here to confirm that 10k should be safe? I can't imagine needing a ton of power to launch a 95gr pill out of a 3"er, and even though these loads will be thoroughly tested from my 24" barrel and my snubbie, I still would like to know if there exists an actual formulation of the pressure needed. Lead of course creates a nice seal leaving nowhere for the gas to go other than out but my solid will shave almost no deformation to seal blow-by. obviously I am going to test and test, but really just an inquiry of what would be a kind of, documented requirement of pressure" to expect a safe load?

powder, powder, powder. I am thinking TiteGroup for lack of flash and because it's seemingly unaffected by power orientation despite having a laughable case-fill that just looks like it would be horribly inconsistent. I have plenty of great 38 loads using TG and barely filling 30% of capacity, so I don't concern myself with detonation. But I have other powders as well, and if someone feels I'd be better served by my other available powders, let me know. I currently have Auto-Comp and CFE Pistol, (both yield similar velocities and a 15% greater case fill than TG). TiteGroup and TrailBoss(share same case fill at 3gr starting as compared to 3.7 on the before mentioned). Odd that TrailBos maxes at 8KPSI with others pushing 10k although yielding similar velocities, just a curious observation, not important. Of these options I am looking for least report and lean burn. IMO I feel TG is likely best suited despite it's very small charge window, and also think AutoComp a good choice as well. Correct me if wrong, but I would consider CFE to be a better runner at higher-pressures and probably display a bigger visual/auditory event. Any opinions helpful.

I also have HP38 and HS6. No way the HS-6 will have the pressure to run well, but HP38 should be okay, maybe even better since it is a close mirror to TG performance-wise but generally uses about 10-12% more charge to reach the same pressure as TG with a 5-7% decrease in velocity. that may be the one. le me know what ya'll think, or even better if you have any manuals that show a jacketed 90-100gr pill, any kind would be better than my very best guess.....

[Jim Watson]

Bayou Bullets offers 95 and 105 grain coated bullets. They are the usual .380 pattern but sized .358" for revolvers.
http://www.bayoubullets.net/categori...ts/38-357.html
I am shooting BBI and Bayou Bullets with Hi Tek coating and don't agonize over which flavor... or color. And most of the homebrews like Fal Coat and Blue Bullets seem ok, too.
(Billy Bullets do work but their coating will leave you with black fingers after loading a batch. I will not replace the ones I am loading now.)

I would not use jacketed or solid copper bullets in extra light loads. It is quite possible to stick a bullet or even just the jacket, I saw the latter happen.

For powder, you do not have to burn at 10,000 psi. Lyman routinely shows revolver loads down to 7000 psi. True, they may not be as consistent as they would with more "heat" and they might smoke her brass. So what? Kick and report will be less and that is what you are looking for.

Trail Boss would probably be OK.
Bullseye or N310 would do about the best possible with a dense powder in a very light load.
Clays or 700X would work and CAS likes American Select for tenderfoot shooters, but light loads of large flake powder are a chore to measure.
I was not thrilled by Titegroup but if you have some, give it a try.
HP38 is marginal, I went to Bullseye for very light .45 ACP. I don't see CFE-P or Autocomp doing any better if as well in powderpuff loads.

I applaud your efforts.
I am now trying to get the neighbor lady something more suitable than the Airweight her considerate but ill informed husband proposes.

ETA: Rubber bullets. Is this such an extreme case she would benefit by primer driven rubber or plastic bullets?
http://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearc...Rubber+Bullets
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...llets-50-Count
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...ases-50-Count-
They are recoverable and reusable if shot into a soft trap.

[firewrench044]

Low Recoil ( powder puff ) load
used in 38 cal. 2 inch barrel and 357 cal. 6 inch barrel
Developed for a recoil sensitive female to learn with,
she now shoots competition with a 9mm

102gr Rem. HP ( 380 bullet ) ( taper crimp )
5.2gr Win. 231
cci # 500 Primer
COAL 1.450
( got a 38/357 cal. taper crimp die from RCBS )

[skizzums]

Thanks fire. Sounds like a great load. I think 231 will likely be the best route as well.

[skizzums]

I have ordered 500 Bayou 95fr Hi-Tek 38/357 bullets. It says they require a taper crimp. They look the same as the equal weight .380 bullet with a single lube groove. Any reason I could use a 9mm taper die? I have the 4 die Lee 38/357 set, but the FCD is also a "roll" on that, correct?


edit: question answered by Lee
I learn something everyday. I was not aware that the FCD straight-wall pistol is a "modified" taper crimp. it always looked like a taper to me, but I have been told other-wise so many times, I just figured I mustn't know what a "roll" looks like, also the seating die sure looked like a "roll" but then the FCD would put a "step" into it. Now I know, and it only took me five years to finger it out..... that's good info because I will no longer use the FCD when doing mags that have a crimp groove or cannelure.

[skizzums]

just an update. as you know I have already ordered and received the 95gr solid copper's from CBC/MagTech, waiting to load these til after testing is done with the Hi-Tek 95gr from Bayou and a chronograph to see where a good line is for recoil and velocities. Essentially my goal is an aenemic .380AC out of a .38spl case in a .357mag LCR. Not too hard.

I researched for a good while, and despit the lack of data regarding the light-weight 38's, I have decided that TiteGroup is likely going to be the best powder, due it's lack of positional sensitivity. I was really think the best may be LongShot, but then I began thinking probably too dirty at unreasonably low-charges. I heard Trailboss and Bullseye a million times, but I really don't think they are as appropriate for super light-weight. And although it seems a lower density powder would be a no-brainer, at the volumes am working with, NO powder is getting me past 25%, so I don't think density matters at this point.

Starting load. 95gr LRN hi-Tek "Supercoat" over 2.6gr TiteGroup, seated slightly past the first driving band and crimped over top of band.
I have to admit that I am pretty excited to shoot these, they should be pretty fun. I will be testing for the obvious plus how the powder position effects things, if I find a noticeable change I will experiment with filler, Dacron(?). But I don't for see any issues with the lead bullets

Second is same everything, but using a 2.9gr charge of HP38/231


will shoot tomorrow, probably late.

[skizzums]

if anyone is interested, I made it out a fw times to test my ulra-light loadings. I ended up trying several powders, all but TiteGroup were horrible failures. HP38/231 was all over the map, inconsistent ignition, position sensitive and some the bullet would be moving so slow you could see it fall out of the barrel. This was using 2.9gr and up 3.2 gr of HP38. Interestingly enough, TiteGroup worked flawlessly in any position all the way down to 2.4gr under a 95gr Hi-Tek coated lead boolit, it was accurate and consistent and did not stutter from different positions. Universal was also a positional flunkie, but evened out after getting to higher loads. (please note that all data talked about here is UNDER published minimums and should not be attempted by anybody EVER unless you are prepared for boolits stuck in barrels)

In the end the Bayou Bullets 95gr LRN w/HiTek coating got loaded to 2.8gr of titegroup. It did just as well with the 2.4 and 2.6 loadings, but with an unnoticeable increase in report/recoil I stuck with 2.8 for safety. I tested in sub-2" barrels, 4' bb' and 24" barrels, very nice load. These are super quiet, as recoil-less and your gonna get and accurate as I am with anything else.

The MagTech 95gr all-copper round got tested with TiteGroup only, and being a mono hollow-point with a long bearing surface, I didn't play too much with super low loadings, and stuck with 3.6gr of TiteGroup. I do not have a chronograph, but I can only assume that I am only pushing the mid 700's....tops, likely lower, but I was still impressed by initial performance of the round. It's not quiet, but it has no recoil and shoots extremely accurate. I did a milkjug test here, note that this is done with a sub 2" barrel. I would like to think this is a great load for recoil sensitive shooters, or new shooters the like. I do not know the equation from water to gelatin, although this seems like it may overpenetrate, but the power was all but gone after 15" and bounce off the wood berm.
http://vid998.photobucket.com/albums...pszx4arbrl.mp4

^^click for video

I have a good bit of footage on the Bayou under-min loadings as well, if there is any interest, just accuracy tests.
https://youtu.be/sOlZuDpvtIY

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by skizzums

I heard Trailboss and Bullseye a million times, but I really don't think they are as appropriate for super light-weight.

I'm curious what led you to that conclusion? Trail Boss is *made* for light, "Cowboy Action" loads and specifically designed to have high case fill at very light loads.

Hodgdon's data shows Trail Boss under 90gr LRN at 900fps MAX load... from a 7.7" barrel.

[skizzums]

no, your right, I see how that sounded. it works amazingly with light powder loadings, I don't like it for light bullets as so much. it doesn't seem to burn well with almost no pressure, at least not as well as titegroup. going below minimums with trailboss, which I have only used one pound in my life so I may not know better, but seemed to leave unburned powder.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Hm. Interesting. I can't really comment on that as I haven't used it in that application. I mostly use it in rifle and never loaded the one handgun (357mag 125gr) below starting.

[Jeffm004]

I have fussed at the bellow low end for kid loads and found bellow min loads clear the barrel most of the time. I went to .22s. One gun they are a major fail in is, surprising to me, derringers.

[skizzums]

fail like squibbed? or just too inaccurate?