Flawed or not, will this work?

BigBlack · October 29, 2008, 03:48 PM

Okay I want accuracy plus speed. I know faster does not always equate to better accuracy but I want a blend of both. Here is my game plan on developing some future hand loads. My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components and since I have started reloading various calibers I am working up a collection of partial powder containers.

Step 1: Load up one cartridge of each weight stepping up in .5 grain increments from min to max. Shoot each cartridge over the chronograph going from lightest charged to heaviest. Watching for pressure signs and monitoring speed. This step is basically to test the upper end of the charge scale and see if it is safe in my rifle and also to see the approximate fps gain for each half grain increment and see if the speed increase flattens at a given point.

Step 2: Once complete with step one load up 3 cartridges each of the top 5 loads from above. Now shoot these for groups at 100 still using my chronograph. If one load shows promise then work around it in smaller increments and more shots per group (maybe 5). If not try a different powder that I have on hand known to work in the cartridge I am loading and repeat from step 1.

Again my goal is to find a good accurate load with upper end velocity. I know sometimes slower is more accurate in certain combinations, but I feel with the right combination I should be able to get both or at least a good balance.

Thinking out loud but thought this would be good food for the brain!

jaguarxk120 · October 29, 2008, 04:34 PM

By the time you find what is the best load for your rifle you may be in need of a new barrel. Many times there is published loading data that gives what you are looking for. TF

Crimp · October 29, 2008, 04:37 PM

You might want to read this site. Good stuff here.

ac700wildcat · October 29, 2008, 04:46 PM

Sounds pretty good, but I tend to load 5 each to put over the chronograph right away. This helps show what loads have low standard deviations in velocity. Usually the loads with low sd's tend to shoot the best.

amamnn · October 29, 2008, 05:12 PM

Certainly everyone is free in this country to do whatever they think best. I will only add that in 57+ years of handloading I have learned 2 things for sure when it comes to loading for max accuracy.

1-- there is no shortcut
a...there can be a significant fraction of MOA difference between loads that vary by as little as .1 grain--that's 1/10 grain of powder.

2-- for Standard Deviation to mean anything at all whether in judging the consistency of handloads or in the weight of weaner pigs, you MUST have a LARGE sampling of data. This absolutely means more than 3 or 5 or even 10. Chronograph makers insist on including this measure in their repertoire and at least have the sense to recommend recording 10 or more samples to decide on the worth of a load. After years of chasing the lowest SD in chronographed loads and seeing groups with horrible SD outscore nicer (as judged by the chrony) groups with lower SD, I finally decided to read up on the subject. I now only chronograph problem loads.

I have to admit that I have a fair idea of how things will go before I shoot a load, but sometimes I am surprised and that's when the Chrony comes out.

maggys drawers · October 30, 2008, 12:14 AM

The thing that would be the fly in the ointment for me would be the partial containers of powder. If you get a load with promise, chances are that you wouldn't be able to find more powder of the same lot, and the characteristics vary some from lot to lot on powders.

I'd see this as a primary step, but would probably have to repeat step 2 again with a different powder lot. When I got things where I wanted, I'd buy plenty of that powder lot.

nra_guns_winner · October 30, 2008, 09:19 AM

Don't know what your loading for, but you may watch for this. 1" group at 100yds, 2"@200, etc. You can easily end up with 2"@100 and 4"@200 maybe even some key hole issues happening. If your reloading for a pistol you'll get you'll get these results at closer distances. Also I think a max load is the point where you add more powder and the bullet does not go any faster? Let me know when you get into subsonic .308 jacketed bullets. Well good luck

Edward429451 · October 30, 2008, 09:23 AM

Can anyone tell me what is the formula for getting the SD? I had it with my chrony papers but it has escaped me...

Crimp · October 30, 2008, 12:39 PM

Edward, here's the SD info from the Chrony manual:

Quote:

Multiply the square of the average velocity by the number of shots and deduct it from the sum of the squares of all shot velocities, then divide this total by the number of shots minus 1, and then take the square root of this figure.
For example: [(29902 + 30102 +29962 + 30042 - 4 x 30002) ÷ (4-1)]½= 9 FPS

Standard Deviation is a measure of how close each shot’s velocity will be to the "average" shot. It is called STANDARD because it is computed in such a way that it has a standard meaning when compared to the NORMAL CURVE. Nearly all things we measure fit a normal curve [such as the height of people, the diameter of (supposedly) identical motor pistons, and the velocity of (supposedly) identical cartridges]. The NORMAL CURVE shows that all variables occur more frequently at or near the average, and less frequently as they deviate further from the average. We use a STANDARD Deviation measure so that all things we measure can be compared with each other and to this curve [68% of all things we measure falls between one standard deviation above or below average, 95.4% falls between two Standard Deviations above and below the average, and 99.7% falls between three Standard Deviations above and below the average]. Thus, Standard Deviation is a universal method in statistics and measurement for dealing with and interpreting data.

Therefore, if the bullets are traveling at an average velocity of 3000 feet per second, and there is a Standard Deviation of 20, then 68% of the shots you fire will fall between 2980 and 3020 fps, and 95.4% will fall between 2960 and 3040 fps. Nearly all of them (99.7%) will fall between 2940 and 3060 fps.

Since Standard Deviation is the most important information your chronograph can give you, it is useful to understand the reason for this. At least ten (10) shots are required to obtain a reliable average and Standard Deviation. Fewer shots (such as 3 or 5) are typically "small samples", and are considered unreliable when measuring anything variable.

Loader9 · October 30, 2008, 03:19 PM

Wanna save money, time, and get the best from your loads? Read this and do it:
http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/la...planation.html

The ladder method of developing loads works great and you aren't having to spend a day to get the right loads. The only other option is to buy a Lyman Reloading Manual and use the accuracy loads in it. Very seldom are they wrong.

jaguarxk120 · October 30, 2008, 03:33 PM

What rifle do you have?

Edward429451 · October 30, 2008, 04:51 PM

Thanks Crimp!

BigBlack · October 30, 2008, 08:29 PM

No paticular load in mind when I posted, my mind was idle and processing ideas. I put the ideas up to get input is all.

Edward429451 · November 1, 2008, 12:52 PM

Am I doing this right? Tryna get the SD for my deerload and while I do know it's a good load, I'm hesitant to believe the answer I got, 1.86

1699 fps, 10 shots SD= 1.86 ?

Someone want to check my work? Is this right? Thx.

October 29, 2008, 03:48 PM	#1
BigBlack Member Join Date: February 20, 2008 Location: Lyons, GA Posts: 46	Flawed or not, will this work? Okay I want accuracy plus speed. I know faster does not always equate to better accuracy but I want a blend of both. Here is my game plan on developing some future hand loads. My goal is to achieve the best accuracy/speed combo without wasting a lot of components and since I have started reloading various calibers I am working up a collection of partial powder containers. Step 1: Load up one cartridge of each weight stepping up in .5 grain increments from min to max. Shoot each cartridge over the chronograph going from lightest charged to heaviest. Watching for pressure signs and monitoring speed. This step is basically to test the upper end of the charge scale and see if it is safe in my rifle and also to see the approximate fps gain for each half grain increment and see if the speed increase flattens at a given point. Step 2: Once complete with step one load up 3 cartridges each of the top 5 loads from above. Now shoot these for groups at 100 still using my chronograph. If one load shows promise then work around it in smaller increments and more shots per group (maybe 5). If not try a different powder that I have on hand known to work in the cartridge I am loading and repeat from step 1. Again my goal is to find a good accurate load with upper end velocity. I know sometimes slower is more accurate in certain combinations, but I feel with the right combination I should be able to get both or at least a good balance. Thinking out loud but thought this would be good food for the brain! __________________ Paul Graham Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um

October 29, 2008, 04:37 PM	#3
Crimp Senior Member Join Date: November 1, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 276	You might want to read this site. Good stuff here. __________________ -Montani Semper Liberi- West Virginians: Consider joining the West Virginia Citizens Defense League.

October 29, 2008, 05:12 PM	#5
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	Certainly everyone is free in this country to do whatever they think best. I will only add that in 57+ years of handloading I have learned 2 things for sure when it comes to loading for max accuracy. 1-- there is no shortcut a...there can be a significant fraction of MOA difference between loads that vary by as little as .1 grain--that's 1/10 grain of powder. 2-- for Standard Deviation to mean anything at all whether in judging the consistency of handloads or in the weight of weaner pigs, you MUST have a LARGE sampling of data. This absolutely means more than 3 or 5 or even 10. Chronograph makers insist on including this measure in their repertoire and at least have the sense to recommend recording 10 or more samples to decide on the worth of a load. After years of chasing the lowest SD in chronographed loads and seeing groups with horrible SD outscore nicer (as judged by the chrony) groups with lower SD, I finally decided to read up on the subject. I now only chronograph problem loads. I have to admit that I have a fair idea of how things will go before I shoot a load, but sometimes I am surprised and that's when the Chrony comes out. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

October 30, 2008, 08:29 PM	#13
BigBlack Member Join Date: February 20, 2008 Location: Lyons, GA Posts: 46	No paticular load in mind when I posted, my mind was idle and processing ideas. I put the ideas up to get input is all. __________________ Paul Graham Clean-um, Prep-um, Pack-um, Load-um, Bang-um

October 29, 2008, 04:34 PM	#2
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	By the time you find what is the best load for your rifle you may be in need of a new barrel. Many times there is published loading data that gives what you are looking for. TF

October 29, 2008, 04:46 PM	#4
ac700wildcat Senior Member Join Date: September 11, 2008 Location: ND Posts: 239	Sounds pretty good, but I tend to load 5 each to put over the chronograph right away. This helps show what loads have low standard deviations in velocity. Usually the loads with low sd's tend to shoot the best.

October 30, 2008, 12:14 AM	#6
maggys drawers Senior Member Join Date: March 4, 2006 Posts: 178	The thing that would be the fly in the ointment for me would be the partial containers of powder. If you get a load with promise, chances are that you wouldn't be able to find more powder of the same lot, and the characteristics vary some from lot to lot on powders. I'd see this as a primary step, but would probably have to repeat step 2 again with a different powder lot. When I got things where I wanted, I'd buy plenty of that powder lot.

October 30, 2008, 09:19 AM	#7
nra_guns_winner Junior member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Wichita, Kansas Posts: 121	Don't know what your loading for, but you may watch for this. 1" group at 100yds, 2"@200, etc. You can easily end up with 2"@100 and 4"@200 maybe even some key hole issues happening. If your reloading for a pistol you'll get you'll get these results at closer distances. Also I think a max load is the point where you add more powder and the bullet does not go any faster? Let me know when you get into subsonic .308 jacketed bullets. Well good luck

October 30, 2008, 09:23 AM	#8
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Can anyone tell me what is the formula for getting the SD? I had it with my chrony papers but it has escaped me...

October 30, 2008, 03:19 PM	#10
Loader9 Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2008 Posts: 949	Wanna save money, time, and get the best from your loads? Read this and do it: http://kingfisher.0catch.com/guns/la...planation.html The ladder method of developing loads works great and you aren't having to spend a day to get the right loads. The only other option is to buy a Lyman Reloading Manual and use the accuracy loads in it. Very seldom are they wrong.

October 30, 2008, 03:33 PM	#11
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	What rifle do you have?

October 30, 2008, 04:51 PM	#12
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Thanks Crimp!

November 1, 2008, 12:52 PM	#14
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Am I doing this right? Tryna get the SD for my deerload and while I do know it's a good load, I'm hesitant to believe the answer I got, 1.86 1699 fps, 10 shots SD= 1.86 ? Someone want to check my work? Is this right? Thx.