Flash hole deburring question.

[F. Guffey]

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing, I have reamers that de-burr, by design they extend through the flash hole from the inside out and align with the case neck. Sharp and pointed like an ice pick, I hold the case with my hand and turn the de-burring tool with a green plastic handle made by RCBS. Holding a case while drilling the flash hole with pliers?

I am still not sure we are talking about the same thing and or tool. I never take my de-burring tools out of the drawer unless I need it. The difference? My pointed reamer de-burring tools have a collar that secures to the de-burring tool. The collar centers the tool in the mouth of the case 'AND!' sets the depth for uniformity.

And my reamers are brittle, I do not want my reamers all 'snaggly', locking them up will do that.

F. Guffey

[Metal god]

I am still not sure we are talking about the same thing and or tool

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/729...uniformer-tool
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/356...ProductFinding

Maybe not , I believe I've explained my issues well enough . It's up to the OP to determine the relevancy .

[wogpotter]

This is my tool. The parallel section cleans up the actual hole & the tapered section creates a slight bevel on the inside edge while removing any irregularities. The lockable sliding collar sets a cut depth.



As far as hanging up making the tool "snaggly"I very much doubt that brass will "snaggle" tool steel because of the huge difference in hardness.

[F. Guffey]

He asked me today about flash hole deburring and what was the best tool. I have no answer as I have never gone that route or found a need, as of yet.

So my question is why is it needed? What is the purpose?

Gad luck, the OP says he has never found a need, I said I have never found the need, I have the tools JIC,

JIC? Just in case I found a case with a hanging chad or burr.

I have not finished sorting and matching cases, thousands of cases, 50 years of accumulated cases, still no hanging chads, no burrs.

As far as hanging up making the tool "snaggly"I very much doubt that brass will "snaggle" tool steel because of the huge difference in hardness.

Metal G. claims the drill? hung up and caused the case to spin, there is something to be said for knowing about stock removal, feed, speed and travel.

F. Guffey

[Slamfire]

I suspect the ones who don't are paying a lot of money for top of the line brass, and not just using standard factory run

The National F Class champ shooters I know, they just buy Lapua brass and "load and shoot them".

A wrong wind call will move the bullet orders of magnitude further than any non de burred flash hole. Flash hole de burring is in the "noise" level for a hand held rifle.

[Metal god]

Guffey: MG never said he uses a drill when deburring cases

I clearly explained that I do not use a drill and what I meant when using the term (drilled many a hole ) and yet you are still hanging on to something YOU misinterpreted as if I said it . English was not my best subject in school and I believe I should have started a new paragraph after talking about the tool hanging up and needing pliers to hold the case then Talking about drilling many a hole . Well I didn't and tried to correct any misunderstanding later . Please stop trying to make much about nothing .

[wogpotter]

MG.
Seriously I've had the exact same problem the tool just quits turning. The cure really is to go in from the primer pocket for just 1 turn with little or no pressure then carry on as normal.

[Metal god]

Wogpotter :

I'll give it a try

Slamfire :

Im sure your right about the difference it makes but where do you draw the line as far as what is not needed . Isn't just about everything one does in case prep not really a big deal . Yes some are more important then others but can't you use the argument that hand held and wind will effect the poi more then any one thing you do with case prep ? Unsquare case mouth can loose accuracy as much as 1/2 MOA but a bad wind call will throw you more then that so why square up your case mouth ? Uneven neck tension/bullet hold can throw off you poi by 1/2 MOA or more but a bad wind call will throw you off more so why bother worring about neck tension . A 10th MOA here and a 10th MOA there can start to add up to real poi shifts . My point is why not take out all the potential ammo issue out of the equation and leave only the shooter and rifle as the possible problems .

[Slamfire]

Im sure your right about the difference it makes but where do you draw the line as far as what is not needed . Isn't just about everything one does in case prep not really a big deal . Yes some are more important then others but can't you use the argument that hand held and wind will effect the poi more then any one thing you do with case prep ? Unsquare case mouth can loose accuracy as much as 1/2 MOA but a bad wind call will throw you more then that so why square up your case mouth ? Uneven neck tension/bullet hold can throw off you poi by 1/2 MOA or more but a bad wind call will throw you off more so why bother worring about neck tension . A 10th MOA here and a 10th MOA there can start to add up to real poi shifts . My point is why not take out all the potential ammo issue out of the equation and leave only the shooter and rifle as the possible problems .

The top flight shooters do experiment and do load testing. They also share load data, because, they know given the same equipment and load, they will out shoot you at distance. A rifle match is a very dynamic affair, the wind being the most dynamic, but also there are lots of other distractions. I recall last mid range match, just as I was pressing the trigger, the scorer on the point next bellowed so loudly, "MARK TEN" that I was actually startled. Of all the loud noises out there, I got distracted and shot an eight because someone was yelling. Good shooters would not let it distract them. People also get upset over target service, scoring, etc, and that ruins scores. One good shooter I know, it drives him nuts when people are "talking on the line" . People drop points over things that have nothing to do with rifle/ammunition accuracy.

The further you go back, the more judgment, mental state, wind call, sight alignment and trigger pull, matter over tiny differences in immeasurable intrinsic accuracy. I would like someone to definitively quantify just how much accuracy you buy with flash hole deburring, so far, the advocates say it "improves accuracy", but by, just how much? Whatever empirical data presented has to be replicable to be valid, it can't be some small lucky group on a nice sunny day. At some level of case prep, I am of the opinion that "improvements" are actually day to day variance. Shooters, like all monkey brained hominoids, are guilty of confirmation bias.

I am of the opinion that the best shooters are "happy" if their test load and rifle shoots within their expectations. You can pick a MOA for that, once the standard was "the X ring", then it went down to "half the X ring", now it might be "one quarter the X ring", but they know, if their rifle and ammunition will consistently hold that, and they do their part, they will win. They have found that just testing, and testing, and testing, wears out their gun and that groups vary from day to day for inexplicable reasons.

As I said, I shoot, eat, with people who are active competitors and have won National Championships. If something new is rumored to improve accuracy, they likely test. But when it comes to case preparation, currently, their advice is to buy good brass (Lapua), load and shoot it.

[F. Guffey]

Brands of brass, then there must be a time line. There is no way I can be missed on different case heads, no burrs and or hanging chads. Time line: I have purchases new cases. by luck, I was standing there when the cases were placed on the shelf. No burrs.

I have found fired cases with flash hole that had been stamp punched. I could have found them before firing but, looking for them was not necessary. All of my punching has been done with a back-up, something like bucking.

F. Guffey

[Barnacle Brad]

I would like someone to definitively quantify just how much accuracy you buy with flash hole deburring, so far, the advocates say it "improves accuracy", but by, just how much?

Exactly. If you can't measure an improvement, then it boils down to a feel good step in case prep that the loader believes adds consistency to their process, or eliminates variables that may affect accuracy. I have no issue with this.

I am new to reloading - eight years and counting. I reload many hunting calibers, for hunting. I have never done anything more than clean the primer pocket to get consistent primer seating. But I have an eighty four Trapdoor, and read the book by Spence Wolf who opened up the flash hole of the 47-70 case to .096 in order to achieve better black powder ignition. He produced measurable results. But that is not really the same as deburring and uniforming. I doubt that any thorough studies or tests would yield data that would change the minds of anyone advocating "load em and shoot em".

[wogpotter]

Whenever I get a fresh batch of factory brass (which may be a while as I'm well stocked) I repeat my earlier test but JUST changing the flash hole reaming & we'll see.

[Metal god]

I would like someone to definitively quantify just how much accuracy you buy with flash hole deburring, so far, the advocates say it "improves accuracy", but by, just how much?

Again can't you ask that same thing about each and every stage of case prep and loading ? Let's see the controlled test results that show any one thing helps more then another . There must be a reason that Lapua brass is better then once fired LC brass . What you all are saying is that it's 100% absolutely not the flash holes . They have ZERO effect ?? If you say maybe not ZERO but very little . Well then lets see your controlled test results that shows that to be true . It seems we all are working with the same data ( none ) to claim we are right . If that's the case who's to say what's right ?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of abcence

I don't think accuracy issues would be what inconsistent flash holes cause . I think it would be powder burn and velocity inconsistency's would be the issue . If that would be something poor or inconsistent flash holes causes . I'd think at long range that could result in vertical POI shifts . Oops maybe it can effect accuracy

This topic seems to be turning in to a barrel break-in type of topic . If your using high end brass just load and shoot but what if your using once fired Mil-surp and not knowing a lot about it . How can anyone say what steps in case prep you can skip ?

I believe that deburring flash holes is less about making them all the same as it is getting that one or two bad ones more consistent with the others you have . There must have been a reason why 2 of the 220 cases I worked on had the deburring tool lock up while trying to turn it and 218 others had very lttle issue

[wogpotter]

Not, of course forgetting that not every caliber in the world is available everywhere in the world from Lapua.

Some of us peasants have to stagger by with somewhat less super high quality components. What would you have us do? Try to improve with every technique available to us or simply relegate ourselves to "rubbish"?

[F. Guffey]

Some of us peasants have to stagger by with somewhat less super high quality components. What would you have us do? Try to improve with every technique available to us or simply relegate ourselves to "rubbish"?

I built a rifle.

I loaded 12 different loads with 12 different head stamps and with as many different bullets as I could and I used different powders. I went to the rang and shot the 120 different cases in groups of 10, it took most of the day. While shooting I did not adjust the scope, the groups moved around but all groups could be covered with a quarter, some groups shared the same hole, meaning the rifle liked everything I loaded. the cases were new factory, once fired, new military pull down and once fired military.

The good part, after tumbling with different head stamps getting the cases back in the same box was east. Then I loaded another 120 rounds if 12 different head stamps, bullets and powder and delivered the rifle with the instructions 'find out what the rifle likes and let me know'. Not what I wanted to know but the answer came back "the rifle likes everything, all I have to do is shoot one round then adjust the scope to center on the first shot".

I have cases that were foreign made, if the foreign made brass shot better than my collection of assorted cases with different head stamps with different dates including cases that have been formed and have no memory of what it was before I started forming them I could not stand it. I would be so conceited no one could stand me. I simply selected cases from assortment I had previously sorted by head stamp.

Going to the range with different head stamps, I want to keep cases together, the wider the selection of head stamps the easier it is when I tumble and then sort.

then I purchased the 'UGLIST RIFLE' for $120.00. I purchased it for parts, but, on the outside chance the builder knew what he was doing, I took it to the range. With 12 different loads, cases, bullets and powder, same results. The rifle was so accurate I applied the leaver policy, I left-er the way they shipped-er it to me. With the exception of the mount, rings and scope. Again, I did not spend all day with the cases, I selected one of the 30/06 drawers and from that drawer I selected cases in groups of 10 complete with the little red belt strap on case organizer.

I make no excuse for the cases I use. I have foreign made cases, at one time forigners sold their cases in boxes of 20, I have some of those and I have Federal cases that were sold for reloading, and Remington, I have those also, a few of them came with primers.

F. Guffey

[wogpotter]

I also use foreign made cases, my favorite is Greek & my second favorite is Bosnian.

I however have no idea what your post had to do with my comment?

[F. Guffey]

I however have no idea what your post had to do with my comment?

Forgive:

Some of us peasants have to stagger by with somewhat less super high quality components. What would you have us do? Try to improve with every technique available to us or simply relegate ourselves to "rubbish"?

I have cases that were foreign made, if the foreign made brass shot better than my collection of assorted cases with different head stamps with different dates including cases that have been formed and have no memory of what it was before I started forming them I could not stand it. I would be so conceited no one could stand me. I simply selected cases from an assortment I had previously sorted by head stamp.

All the cases I loaded were USA made, owning them does not make me feel like a peasant, and if the rifles I mentioned were not accurate I would have been wasting my time.

The ugliest rifle was on a gun auction, gun forums got involved. Gun forums being what they are have much more fun laughing at someone than laughing with them. The man that built the ugly rifle was a genius, the gun forums could not believe someone would bid on the rifle then admit it. I was concerned all the attention would drive the price up.

I could have spent $1,000 + for something that was far less accurate.

F. Guffey

[Snyper]

I have not finished sorting and matching cases, thousands of cases, 50 years of accumulated cases, still no hanging chads, no burrs.

You can't see them since they are inside the cases

[F. Guffey]

You can't see them since they are inside the cases

Berdan primers: I sorted 22,000 cases, of the 22,000 cases 3 were Berdan primed, I found the 3 Berdan primed cases.

In my short like I have found one R-P 30/06 case with a Berdan primer. All of the Berdan primed cases I have found I found them when looking through the mouth of the case.

I have flash hole reamers, I do not use them but I have them JIC, I do not use them to taper the flash hole and assume the cuttings are from burrs and or hanging chads.

F. Guffey

And then? There are the thousands of cases I have necked up to 338 and 35 Whelen. One, just one case? Then neck gets smaller like the 280 Remington, still there are the 280 Cases I have necked up to 338/06 and 35 Whelen.

F. Guffey

[Barnacle Brad]

My Stock in flash hole reamers just went over the cliff...

Any investment suggestions Guffey?

[Bart B.]

Snyper says one can't see flash hole issues inside a case, yet I have no problem seeing them with great detail using a 5X loupe with the inside of the case illuminated with a light.

Do I have to post pictures of them to prove my point?

[wogpotter]

I think he's saying you might not see burrs or hanging chads, not the flash holes themselves.

Personally I find them when the tool first bites into them.

[Bart B.]

For those believing that out of square case mouths cause accuracy problems, what difference does it really make when the bullet's well into and centered in the rifling when the bullet's heel clears the case mouth?

I applaud those who can see results as they have to shoot their stuff no worse than 1/10th MOA at 100 yards to observe any significant difference. Too many people shoot cases with case mouth edge points having a .005" or more spread in distance to case head into no worse than 1/4 MOA at short range, 1/2 MOA at medium and 3/4 MOA at long range; that's as good as it gets.

Black Hills and Federal match ammo shoots 1/4 MOA all day long in good rifles. Their new case mouths are not square. If you can't shoot your stuff with that ammo that well, there's other accuracy degrading issues much bigger that need correcting. So forget about square case mouths until you're there with that stuff.

[Snyper]

Snyper says one can't see flash hole issues inside a case, yet I have no problem seeing them with great detail using a 5X loupe with the inside of the case illuminated with a light.

Do I have to post pictures of them to prove my point?

In the time it takes you to look at them, I can run the reamer in and make sure they are all the same

Once it's done, it never has to be repeated

You'd be amazed at how much brass comes out of some cases

If Guffey hasn't seen a "burr or hanging chad" in 50 years, he's never really looked inside a case

[F. Guffey]

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I think he's saying you might not see burrs or hanging chads, not the flash holes themselves.

wogpotter, I have no ideal what he meant to say, what he said next:

If Guffey hasn't seen a "burr or hanging chad" in 50 years, he's never really looked inside a case

Deductive reasoning, that works on everyone but me, when reading I learned to disregard insults through innuendo and deductive reasoning. On this forum there are two members that have gone through 100,000 +cases. that does not qualify them for anything. Again, I have flash hole cleaning up tools, I have them JIC. I have used them, while using them I built up a small pile of cuttings, no burrs, no chads.

When looking for burrs and or chads, best time, when the case is new, light reflecting off the inside wall of the case reflects the flash hole.

This thread started in such a manner as to cause those that know what they are doing to wonder what the others were talking about, and you are welcome.

F. Guffey