Marlin 336 30 30 Shoots bullets sideways

Can300magger · October 2, 2009, 01:07 PM

Help my roughly 30 year old gift from an old friend shoots the new hornady evolution ammo perfectly keyholed at 25 yards. I also tried a box of winchester 150 grain ammo and it key holes as well. riflling looks good , could it be the crown or what?????

rgitzlaff · October 2, 2009, 01:46 PM

Are you sure the caliber of the gun is .30-30 win and not 35 Remington or a larger caliber which it also comes chambered in? If your gun is in fact 35 Remington and you are trying .30-30 shells in it, that .30 cal bullet will not engage the rifling and will indeed tumble, and probably shoot quite low also since gas will be escaping out the sides of the bullet as it travels down the bore.

koolminx · October 2, 2009, 02:54 PM

Good point!

Wonder if he'll come back?

Old Grump · October 2, 2009, 03:18 PM

I think it would rattle around to much to not be noticeable in a 35 Rem chamber but it might not be so noticeable in a 32 Win spcl. I agree though, if the bore looks good he should go back to step 1 and read the markings on the barrel before he tries to shoot anything else in it.

Can300magger · October 2, 2009, 04:11 PM

I own 30 weapons i know its is a 30 30 yes I checked the fired brass its not a 35 rem or a 32 win special any other ideas

medicdave · October 2, 2009, 04:30 PM

Does it keyhole more traditional ammo? The leverevolution is a longer bullet, may not have a fast enough twist to stabalize it. May need to be recrowned ie a burr nick etc on the crown will do it also. Hard to tell with out looking at it.

Old Grump · October 2, 2009, 09:35 PM

Quote:

I own 30 weapons i know its is a 30 30 yes I checked the fired brass its not a 35 rem or a 32 win special any other ideas

Yep I do, check your muzzle crown for irregularites or damage, inspect your barrel under a really strong light and look for any anomalies in the rifling, slug your barrel and measure the slug, I can't help but think you are oversized unless you are shooting a really bad batch of ammunition.

Old Grump · October 2, 2009, 09:40 PM

Quote:

I own 30 weapons i know its is a 30 30 yes I checked the fired brass its not a 35 rem or a 32 win special any other ideas

Yep I do, check your muzzle crown for irregularites or damage, inspect your barrel under a really strong light and look for any anomalies in the rifling, slug your barrel and measure the slug, I can't help but think you are oversized unless you are shooting a really bad batch of ammunition.

Wasn't worried about the ammo being oversized but shooting 30 cal in an over sized bore.

mapsjanhere · October 3, 2009, 07:26 AM

This is the second thread in a week with someone having this problem.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378016
Looks like some 336 don't like that round.

Harry Bonar · October 3, 2009, 11:27 AM

Sir;
I've never heard of a 30-30 of any make keyholing. Surely there has been something done to this rifle!
Are you sure it hasn't been rebored, rifling good, the correct caliber? Something is very strange!
Harry B.

Can300magger · October 5, 2009, 11:19 AM

The rifle is extremely dirty I wonder if the microgroove rifling is full ??? It is soaking in a cleaner right now but the rifling looks good

Can300magger · October 5, 2009, 11:36 AM

I miked a case after being fired but it is very close to a winchester 150 grain factory load so I do not suspect that some one has rebored the bbl or tampered with it . I tried last night to clean the bore but the brush just kept bringing out blue dirty patches over and over .. I did try winchester 150 gr factory loads and they keyholed as well. My only question is can I tell by just looking if the muzzle is damaged

koolminx · October 5, 2009, 11:57 AM

Damage that would tumble a round is going to definitely be visible.

If the patches come out dirty, go back to the oil or the WD or the CRC and wire brush the crap out of it until the oil starts leaking out clean, and not black.

THEN take the patches to it and finish cleaning. Then go shoot it again using off the shelf Winchester ammo, if they shoot good now you will be fine...

You could take it to a gunsmith for a once over with his experienced eye...

shooter_from_show-me · October 5, 2009, 12:46 PM

You say blue patches. Do you mean bluegreen if so your bore is copper fouled. Get rid of all that and go try it again.

Can300magger · October 5, 2009, 03:01 PM

I had no idea a bore could be that fouled that it would not properly spin the bullet and yes its bluish green. I usually keep my barrels clean but I received the marlin for free and the felow I received it from inherited it and has no idea on the history of the gun. I will clean the crap out of it tonight and do some shooting and let you guys know , thanks for the advice.

Harry Bonar · October 6, 2009, 06:20 PM

Sir;
It's a rather drastic treatment but you could go buy a stainles steel brush - thery will really take the crap out.
As long as you're getting anything out of that bore keep cleaning - JB bore cleaning compound is good! Hope you get it cleaned up but if you've got keyholing you've got lots of cleaning to do!
Harry B.

jsflagstad · October 6, 2009, 07:55 PM

Yes, I would be interested to see how this turns out...

Harry Bonar · October 7, 2009, 04:06 PM

Sir;
I really think, if your rifle has micro-groove rifling that you'll get it fixed. Micro-groove would be sensitive to fouling and crud build up so you may really have to scrub it good.
I traded for a Remington 760 pump that had what looked like terrible! I used the stainless brush and it removed the slight fouling that over the years had just "grown." Also a M48 Mauser, beautiful in every other way had a terrible bore. Again the stainless brush cleaned it up, pitting and all and made a nice shooter out of it.
Harry B.

plainsman456 · October 7, 2009, 06:18 PM

Sounds like a job for jb bore paste.Good Luck

ZeSpectre · October 7, 2009, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Micro-groove would be sensitive to fouling and crud build up so you may really have to scrub it good.

I can testify to that one, Micro-groove is pretty neat, unless someone shoots a bunch of hard cast lead and then some copper jacketed right behind it, then you might just have a heck of a cleanup job <sigh>. This is not hearsay, I had to clean up a c. 1966 microgrooved rifle that was all clogged up like this. It might as well have been a smoothbore when I started cleaning but after some soaking time and some elbow grease it cleaned up nicely and was shooting true again.

Powderman · October 8, 2009, 12:14 AM

Please bear this in mind: micing the cases doesn't prove anything.

Slugging the bore does.

First, remove the lever and bolt from the rifle. This is done easily, and is necessary because you're going to be doing this from the breech.

Start with a bullet or ball made of soft lead. Get a Dewey coated rod of the proper model. If you're going to use a lead ball, get one that is .310 or so in diameter.

Clean your barrel with bore brush and copper solvent. Now, get a good, heavy oil (like 10W-40) and patch out the bore with a saturated patch.

Assemble your rod with a "pusher" tip. Now, select one ball, put some 10W-40 on it, and drop it in the chamber. Invert the rifle, muzzle down and tap it in gently with the end of the rod until it goes no further.

Place the end of the rod on the bore, and tap the handle with a rubber mallet--gently--until the ball--now a slug--comes out of the other end.

Tips: It helps if you have someone else to help by holding the rifle while you tap the rod. Also, have a soft towel or something similar to catch the ball when it drops from the muzzle.

Now, measure the slug at 2 to 3 points along its length. Your reading should be .308 or very close. If it is more, you have an oversized barrel.

BruceM · October 16, 2009, 02:07 PM

Before you slug the bore and do any measuring of any kind, get the bore perfectly clean. If it is really fouled, use KG-12 to get most of the big chunks out followed by Kroil and then a more conventional bore cleaner. When all else fails, there is always the Outer's Foul-Out which will remove any fouling, copper or lead, by reverse electroplating. Do NOT use a stainless brush under any circumstances. After the bore is thoroughly cleaned, try conventional ammo to check for tumbling. It will only take a couple of shots to tell you what you need to know. If it still tumbles after the bore is clean, it's time to check bore diameter and possibly re-barrel. I suspect that the Micro-Groove rifling in the bore is totally fouled. I barrel crown damaged to the extent that it would make a bullet tumble would be readily noticeable and far less likely.

Bruce

October 2, 2009, 01:07 PM	#1
Can300magger Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2009 Posts: 5	Marlin 336 30 30 Shoots bullets sideways Help my roughly 30 year old gift from an old friend shoots the new hornady evolution ammo perfectly keyholed at 25 yards. I also tried a box of winchester 150 grain ammo and it key holes as well. riflling looks good , could it be the crown or what?????

October 2, 2009, 03:18 PM	#4
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	I think it would rattle around to much to not be noticeable in a 35 Rem chamber but it might not be so noticeable in a 32 Win spcl. I agree though, if the bore looks good he should go back to step 1 and read the markings on the barrel before he tries to shoot anything else in it. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

October 3, 2009, 07:26 AM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	This is the second thread in a week with someone having this problem. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=378016 Looks like some 336 don't like that round. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

October 3, 2009, 11:27 AM	#10
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	keyholing? Sir; I've never heard of a 30-30 of any make keyholing. Surely there has been something done to this rifle! Are you sure it hasn't been rebored, rifling good, the correct caliber? Something is very strange! Harry B.

October 5, 2009, 12:46 PM	#14
shooter_from_show-me Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 231	You say blue patches. Do you mean bluegreen if so your bore is copper fouled. Get rid of all that and go try it again. __________________ When the government fears the people, you have liberty. When the people fear the government, you have tyranny. ~ Thomas Jefferson NRA Life Member

October 2, 2009, 01:46 PM	#2
rgitzlaff Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2006 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 524	Are you sure the caliber of the gun is .30-30 win and not 35 Remington or a larger caliber which it also comes chambered in? If your gun is in fact 35 Remington and you are trying .30-30 shells in it, that .30 cal bullet will not engage the rifling and will indeed tumble, and probably shoot quite low also since gas will be escaping out the sides of the bullet as it travels down the bore.

October 2, 2009, 02:54 PM	#3
koolminx Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 520	Good point! Wonder if he'll come back?

October 2, 2009, 04:11 PM	#5
Can300magger Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2009 Posts: 5	I own 30 weapons i know its is a 30 30 yes I checked the fired brass its not a 35 rem or a 32 win special any other ideas

October 2, 2009, 04:30 PM	#6
medicdave Junior Member Join Date: October 1, 2009 Posts: 4	Does it keyhole more traditional ammo? The leverevolution is a longer bullet, may not have a fast enough twist to stabalize it. May need to be recrowned ie a burr nick etc on the crown will do it also. Hard to tell with out looking at it.

October 5, 2009, 11:19 AM	#11
Can300magger Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2009 Posts: 5	The rifle is extremely dirty I wonder if the microgroove rifling is full ??? It is soaking in a cleaner right now but the rifling looks good

October 5, 2009, 11:36 AM	#12
Can300magger Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2009 Posts: 5	I miked a case after being fired but it is very close to a winchester 150 grain factory load so I do not suspect that some one has rebored the bbl or tampered with it . I tried last night to clean the bore but the brush just kept bringing out blue dirty patches over and over .. I did try winchester 150 gr factory loads and they keyholed as well. My only question is can I tell by just looking if the muzzle is damaged

October 5, 2009, 11:57 AM	#13
koolminx Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2009 Posts: 520	Damage that would tumble a round is going to definitely be visible. If the patches come out dirty, go back to the oil or the WD or the CRC and wire brush the crap out of it until the oil starts leaking out clean, and not black. THEN take the patches to it and finish cleaning. Then go shoot it again using off the shelf Winchester ammo, if they shoot good now you will be fine... You could take it to a gunsmith for a once over with his experienced eye...

October 5, 2009, 03:01 PM	#15
Can300magger Junior Member Join Date: September 29, 2009 Posts: 5	I had no idea a bore could be that fouled that it would not properly spin the bullet and yes its bluish green. I usually keep my barrels clean but I received the marlin for free and the felow I received it from inherited it and has no idea on the history of the gun. I will clean the crap out of it tonight and do some shooting and let you guys know , thanks for the advice.

October 6, 2009, 06:20 PM	#16
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	Green patches Sir; It's a rather drastic treatment but you could go buy a stainles steel brush - thery will really take the crap out. As long as you're getting anything out of that bore keep cleaning - JB bore cleaning compound is good! Hope you get it cleaned up but if you've got keyholing you've got lots of cleaning to do! Harry B.

October 6, 2009, 07:55 PM	#17
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	Yes, I would be interested to see how this turns out... __________________ JSF "Is your rifle interesting? -Larry Potterfield

October 7, 2009, 04:06 PM	#18
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	keyholing Sir; I really think, if your rifle has micro-groove rifling that you'll get it fixed. Micro-groove would be sensitive to fouling and crud build up so you may really have to scrub it good. I traded for a Remington 760 pump that had what looked like terrible! I used the stainless brush and it removed the slight fouling that over the years had just "grown." Also a M48 Mauser, beautiful in every other way had a terrible bore. Again the stainless brush cleaned it up, pitting and all and made a nice shooter out of it. Harry B.

October 7, 2009, 06:18 PM	#19
plainsman456 Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 2008 Posts: 260	Sounds like a job for jb bore paste.Good Luck

October 8, 2009, 12:14 AM	#21
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Please bear this in mind: micing the cases doesn't prove anything. Slugging the bore does. First, remove the lever and bolt from the rifle. This is done easily, and is necessary because you're going to be doing this from the breech. Start with a bullet or ball made of soft lead. Get a Dewey coated rod of the proper model. If you're going to use a lead ball, get one that is .310 or so in diameter. Clean your barrel with bore brush and copper solvent. Now, get a good, heavy oil (like 10W-40) and patch out the bore with a saturated patch. Assemble your rod with a "pusher" tip. Now, select one ball, put some 10W-40 on it, and drop it in the chamber. Invert the rifle, muzzle down and tap it in gently with the end of the rod until it goes no further. Place the end of the rod on the bore, and tap the handle with a rubber mallet--gently--until the ball--now a slug--comes out of the other end. Tips: It helps if you have someone else to help by holding the rifle while you tap the rod. Also, have a soft towel or something similar to catch the ball when it drops from the muzzle. Now, measure the slug at 2 to 3 points along its length. Your reading should be .308 or very close. If it is more, you have an oversized barrel. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

October 16, 2009, 02:07 PM	#22
BruceM Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2006 Location: SE Wisconsin Posts: 285	Before you slug the bore and do any measuring of any kind, get the bore perfectly clean. If it is really fouled, use KG-12 to get most of the big chunks out followed by Kroil and then a more conventional bore cleaner. When all else fails, there is always the Outer's Foul-Out which will remove any fouling, copper or lead, by reverse electroplating. Do NOT use a stainless brush under any circumstances. After the bore is thoroughly cleaned, try conventional ammo to check for tumbling. It will only take a couple of shots to tell you what you need to know. If it still tumbles after the bore is clean, it's time to check bore diameter and possibly re-barrel. I suspect that the Micro-Groove rifling in the bore is totally fouled. I barrel crown damaged to the extent that it would make a bullet tumble would be readily noticeable and far less likely. Bruce Last edited by BruceM; October 16, 2009 at 03:21 PM.