.308 Home Defense?

[RevolverOcelot]

Lately I've been keeping my SOCOM 16 M1a out as my main battle rifle. I have more confidence and practice with it than my 870 and I would like to start using it for home defense.


I've been looking into reduced loads that would be suitable for Home Defense that have the power of a decent 30-30 round.

Here's one that's 170 grains and goes about 2,000 FPS. That seems about equal to a heavy 30-30: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c...6527&bi=141567

Here's another one, a 125 grainer going about 2600 FPS. Seems a bit more powerful: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c...59293&bi=95066



Would these or a similar light .308 load be practical for home defense? Seems like the overpenetration factor would be remedied.

[Saskhunter]

Find an old abandoned building, get permission, and then experiment. I expect you will be horrified at the penetration you will get. If you live anywhere but alone on an acreage surrounded by open distance or dense trees, you may well endanger your neighbors.

[jehu]

12ga pump shotgun=home defense.

[Wyosmith]

I have an auto 308 for a "home gun" too. But I am Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out in the country with my nearest neighbor is over a mile from me. I can load with the same ammo I kill elk with.

If you have neighbors within 500 yards I would agree with other men and say you'd be better off with the shotgun.

Also keep in mind that most autos will not run with reduced loads. The FN-FAL will because you can adjust the gas port to use more or less gas, but the M1A probably will not. You’ll have to try

If you are going to buy a rifle as a home gun, the very best you can get is probably an AK-47 and load it with hollow point ammo.

[allaroundhunter]

It might seem counterintuitive, but you are not actually wanting a ballistic match to a .30-30 in this situation. Rather than a slow and heavy bullet, a light and fast bullet is a much better option. The lighter and faster it is, the easier it is to destabilize and thus limit the penetration. Hornady's TAP line has a .308 load that is pushing a 110 gr round close to 3000 fps I believe.

If you are wanting to use your M1a for defense, this is your best choice. (and it will also penetrate less than 00 buck out of a scattergun)

Sent from my HTC One X

[RevolverOcelot]

Find an old abandoned building, get permission, and then experiment. I expect you will be horrified at the penetration you will get. If you live anywhere but alone on an acreage surrounded by open distance or dense trees, you may well endanger your neighbors.

You really think those light .308 loads would penetrate much more than 00 buck?


What about those 110 grain loads from Hornady?

[allaroundhunter]

You really think those light .308 loads would penetrate much more than 00 buck?


What about those 110 grain loads from Hornady?

See post #5?

Yes, I have tested this, but I don't have the pictures with me on this laptop.

[jmr40]

There isn't much in a 308 that I would trust for reliability. The very light, very fast bullets are your best choice if they will run in your rifle. An AR loaded with softpoint bullets will be less likely to penetrate building material than any other choice including buckshot and handgun rounds if that is your main concern. They don't cost much more than a quality shotgun anymore especially when you factor in the cost of buckshot ammo vs 223 ammo. But since you already have an 870 that is what I'd use.

[James K]

Any round that will function that rifle will over-penetrate in a modern home. Unless you live in a very isolated area, IMHO rifles have no place in a home defense situation. Even shotguns with birdshot will pentrate wallboard with enough force to kill someone on the other side.

In this area last year, a man shot at his wife with an AK-47. (OK, maybe not home defense, but the ballistic situation was the same.) The bullet missed her, fortunately, but penetrated the outer wall of their house, went through two walls of the neighbor's house, and lodged in the outer brick wall of a third house. And that from a round not usually considered in the "high power" category. No one hurt, but a lesson to the people who keep "proving" that bullets won't penetrate walls.

When a guy named Mel Tappan was touting the HK 91 as the ideal home defense weapon, I knew a Tappan fan who had one that he kept loaded and with a dozen or more magazines, all stuffed with FMJ 7.62x51. He told me that if someone came in uninvited, he would just keep shooting until he ran out of ammo. He lived in an apartment with walls so thin he could hear the shower in the next apartment. I will make no further comment.

Jim

[Mobuck]

You realize those "light loads" probably won't operate the M1A?? That means you have a manually operated jam in progress. On the other hand, we used the M14 as a club with good results.

[RevolverOcelot]

See post #5?

Yes, I have tested this, but I don't have the pictures with me on this laptop.

Sorry, long day yesterday

What sort of results did you get?

[Art Eatman]

If over-penetration is the concern, it seems to me that a frangible bullet would be one possibility.

If you're mean-spirited and are a handloader, I note that an 80-grain pistol bullet will come near to 3,800 or more for muzzle velocity. I found that from an '06, it turned jackrabbits into ready-made stew meat. It might well penetrate dry-wall, but odds are that what goes on through are tiny fragments.

[allaroundhunter]

Sorry, long day yesterday

What sort of results did you get?

Test #1 was with 6 sheets of drywall placed 5" apart from each other, shot at from 8 yards: Both the 2 3/4" TAP 00 Buck and the 110 gr TAP penetrated through each sheet without a problem.

Test #2 was similar, but with a 2x4 placed behind the 1st piece of drywall: 6 out of the 8 pellets of 00 buck penetrated through all 6 pieces of drywall again, while the 110 gr .308 round only completely penetrated 3 pieces of drywall, and a few pieces of shrapnel cut into the 4th piece.

The last test we did was with 2 sheets of drywall and then with brick on the outside of the 2nd sheet (we placed a 3rd sheet of drywall behind the bricks to see what kind of shrapnel/bullet material would make it through): Both rounds did a number on the brick and there was some shrapnel that penetrated the 3rd piece of drywall. There might have been a 00 pellet or two that penetrated, but it was hard to discern for sure. The 110 gr slug completely fragmented (as expected), and some of its shrapnel most likely also penetrated the drywall behind the brick.


For the 12 ga we were using a Winchester 11-87 and we used a Socom II for the .308.

[allaroundhunter]

Any round that will function that rifle will over-penetrate in a modern home. Unless you live in a very isolated area, IMHO rifles have no place in a home defense situation. Even shotguns with birdshot will pentrate wallboard with enough force to kill someone on the other side.

In this area last year, a man shot at his wife with an AK-47. (OK, maybe not home defense, but the ballistic situation was the same.) The bullet missed her, fortunately, but penetrated the outer wall of their house, went through two walls of the neighbor's house, and lodged in the outer brick wall of a third house. And that from a round not usually considered in the "high power" category. No one hurt, but a lesson to the people who keep "proving" that bullets won't penetrate walls.

When a guy named Mel Tappan was touting the HK 91 as the ideal home defense weapon, I knew a Tappan fan who had one that he kept loaded and with a dozen or more magazines, all stuffed with FMJ 7.62x51. He told me that if someone came in uninvited, he would just keep shooting until he ran out of ammo. He lived in an apartment with walls so thin he could hear the shower in the next apartment. I will make no further comment.

We can all agree that using FMJ for defensive purposes will increase penetration, whether you are using rifle or pistol rounds. For that reason, I will never recommend them for such purpose.

However, it has been tested and proven time and again that quality, defensive rifle rounds will penetrate less than a shotgun firing 00 buckshot or a handgun with a premium JHP round. I would much rather have an AR in 5.56 than a .308 for this role, however (and I do).

[Art Eatman]

Tappan mostly considered rural locations and dealing with Bad Guys while they were outside the residence. His scenarios generally included some sort of warning systems ahead of confrontation.

[RevolverOcelot]

Test #1 was with 6 sheets of drywall placed 5" apart from each other, shot at from 8 yards: Both the 2 3/4" TAP 00 Buck and the 110 gr TAP penetrated through each sheet without a problem.

Test #2 was similar, but with a 2x4 placed behind the 1st piece of drywall: 6 out of the 8 pellets of 00 buck penetrated through all 6 pieces of drywall again, while the 110 gr .308 round only completely penetrated 3 pieces of drywall, and a few pieces of shrapnel cut into the 4th piece.

The last test we did was with 2 sheets of drywall and then with brick on the outside of the 2nd sheet (we placed a 3rd sheet of drywall behind the bricks to see what kind of shrapnel/bullet material would make it through): Both rounds did a number on the brick and there was some shrapnel that penetrated the 3rd piece of drywall. There might have been a 00 pellet or two that penetrated, but it was hard to discern for sure. The 110 gr slug completely fragmented (as expected), and some of its shrapnel most likely also penetrated the drywall behind the brick.


For the 12 ga we were using a Winchester 11-87 and we used a Socom II for the .308.

Thanks for doing this test. I was going to do it myself but you saved me a lot of time. That's very interesting. I guess a properly loaded .308 Ballistic Tip or HP isn't the penetrating death missile that people say it is

[allaroundhunter]

I guess a properly loaded .308 Ballistic Tip or HP isn't the penetrating death missile that people say it is

Be careful with that. The Hornady Tap round is a much closer match to a varmint-type round than it is to a ballistic-tip big game round.

If you were to use something like a ballistic silvertip, expect much more penetration.

[GeauxTide]

My bedstand holds a SA 45acp, and one step from the bed is an 870 Tactical with 7+1 7.5 Dove Loads. Devastating and won't blast through a couple of walls.

Anything you load down enough won't cycle the action.

[bacardisteve]

Do you reload? Both speer and hornady offer a 110gr varmint bullet for the 308. If pushed fast they wont penetrate much. I shoot coyote with the 110gr vmax and they explode.

[LSnSC]

IF I had to use a 308 for HD it would be loaded with Speer's 125 gr TNT bullet, or Hornady's V Max. Both are Varmint bullets designed to open quickly and fragment.

[TPAW]

12ga pump shotgun=home defense.

+1

[Venom1956]

20ga works well too...

[tomrkba]

"Know your target and what is beyond" is essential when using long arms for home defense.

[sc928porsche]

For inside home defense, nothing will beat a cut down 870 or 1100. Just keep it legal. Next would probably be a semi auto in 40 S&W. For inside rifle or close quarters outside the M1 Carbine is ideal. Any one of these will provide good stopping power without excessive penetration.

[TPAW]

20ga works well too...

Venom 1956 makes a good point. For some, it would be a good alternative to a 12 ga.