do I need to use all same head stamp brass

b money · March 7, 2009, 10:16 PM

Hello, I will be loading for .308win in a remington 700pss and I wont be in competitions so all I'm looking for is .5 moa or so. Im thinking about getting once fired brass with mixed head stamps(to save some $) but dont know if I should. so does it all need to be the same HS?????? Please help, thanks

**Mal H** · March 7, 2009, 10:31 PM

.5 MOA? So you're just looking for plinking rounds?

IMO, no, a batch of reloads don't have to be all one headstamp, but I doubt you would get that kind of accuracy if you intermix headstamps in a shot group.

One very big caution though, you shouldn't go for a max load if you have worked up using one headstamp case type, and then start reloading a mixture. Different manufactured cases in the same caliber rarely have the same volume. So pressures will vary from case to case. Military brass, for example, is notorious for having less volume than the average commercial case. Less volume equals higher pressure for a given load.

So, you can do it, but be cautious.

cgaengineer · March 7, 2009, 11:28 PM

Just sort what you buy by the headstamp. If you want to maintain accuracy it is advisable to sort headstamps. Different manufactures have varying thicknesses of brass that would change internal case volume which affects pressure.

b money · March 7, 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

.5 MOA? So you're just looking for plinking rounds?

well, yeah, forgive my ignorance as I have never reloaded for rifle just pistol so im just getting into the real accuracy game, but is that to much to ask from my rifle & mixed head stamp loads? also I would only shoot groups with the same headstamps and would'nt use max loads for any of the rounds. I just dont want to start over from scratch every time I get a few diff. headstamped brass. just load them all no matter the headstamp with X-brand and X-amount of powder.

thank you

SL1 · March 8, 2009, 11:31 AM

I suggest that you buy some Federal Gold Metal Match Ammo and see what your rifle will do with that. It has a well-earned reputation for being very accurate in pretty-much any rifle that is accurate. That will tell you what to be looking for in the way of accuray from your handloads.

Otherwise, you may drive yourself crazy trying to achieve accuracy that your rifle simply will not produce, doing all sorts of time-consuming things that won't help you.

If your rifle (and you) can put the Gold Metal ammo in sub-MOA groups, then get a copy of Handloader #257 (December 2008) from Wolfe Publishing Company to see a really good article about what matters in developing accurate loads for the .308. You can order single copies from Wolfe at 1-800-899-7810. (Don't be surprised if you decide to suscribe.)

SL1

whiplash · March 8, 2009, 01:49 PM

as far as mixing headstamps. I think you should seperate the different brands, 20 of brand X, 20 of Y, and 20 of Z. If you stick to that youll have some consistancy with those 20. I have found that MY rifle shot better with brand X brass, than brand Y, with the same bullet/primer/powder. Now if you load with a mild powder charge, I dont think you will have any dangers with pressure. Yes, the different brands MAY have different volume. But I with a mild load I dont think its going to amount to much.

rn22723 · March 8, 2009, 07:14 PM

You got some **** poor advice. NEVER EVER MIX HEADSTAMPS IN RIFLE RELOADS! The key to reloading is consistency. You need a large lot of brass to work up loads with of the same headstamp. 20 of this and 20 of that is a waste of time resources and money. Fed brass SUCKS! Short Case Life. Case capacity varies mfg to mfg. How does soome of the board posters figure that will help with consistency? The fact is that they are talking out of their terminal end of the their alimentary canal! Ergo use the same headstamp brass. A load worked up in WW brass shot in Fed brass may well ruin your day! 308 brass is hard to come by. The only real stuff around is Nosler and spendy, too! Messing with once fired LC brass is PITA as it may well have come from a machine gun. This may cause you to have to use a Small Base Sizer Die for the first reload!

If you want 0.5"MOA you are going to pay a price! Get some Lapua a new batch is about to hit the USA shores soon!

totalloser · March 8, 2009, 10:08 PM

I must be over my head. I thought I saw pretty good advice. As to sorting headstamps, I'd consider weighing cases anyhow. If you expect sub MOA, and your rifle is capable of it (most are not, but I would expect sub MOA for the first 1000 out of yours-till the leade in the throat stretches out WITH A TUNED LOAD) You will probably want to uniform the case neck, fire form your brass, neck size only, and uniform the primer pocket as well.

If your cases are weighed, and uniformed, etc, the only difference possible that the accuracy can be affected by is the hardness of the neck of the brass, which will differ depending on the number of loads, as brass work hardens.

I load virtually exclusively MG fired military brass in .223 and .308 (5.56 and 7.62x51), and don't bother with a SB sizer. I got one for 5.56/.223, and NEVER use it. I only expect 2", though out of my rifles (all semis). But I don't see why you couldn't get FINE accuracy out of military brass. LC is often purchased specifically for accuracy. Be prepared to deal with the crimp, though.

cgaengineer · March 9, 2009, 05:14 AM

I was thinking the same thing totalloser... I don't see it written anywhere where someone suggested or even mentioned mixing head stamps.

Even if you did decide to mix headstamps you would be fine as long as you were not at the max loads...but I am sure your accuracy would suffer.

Like another poster said, just cull them into groups of 20-40 of the same head stamps and load those matching head stamps the same so your loads will be consistant. Case/Primer/Powder and seating depth all play a role to achieving maximum accuracy for your rifle.

By the way, I own two of the PSS's and one LTR...all three are capable of better shooting then I can do.

SL1 · March 9, 2009, 08:49 AM

That post about Federal brass being lousy is NOT consistent with the results in the Handloader article that I referenced. Federal plain (not plated) brass was right there (2nd) between Nosler and Lapua for accuracy with virgin (unfired) cases, and ahead of Norma (6th place). But, the average group size difference only went from 0.5000" to 0.5625" in those 6 places, and only Nosler was below 0.5313".

When neck-sized once-fired cases were used, groups shrank and accuracy order changed. Nosler was still on top with 0.3281" and Federal plain was at 5th place with 0.4531. But, Federal plain was still above Lapua (0.5469") and Norma (0.5469").

Also Federal plain (13 reloadings) out-lasted Nosler (11), but not Lapua (15)or Norma (24) before failing in the "endurance test." But, that test went to case separation with full-length resizings at each reload. Different treatment of the caes would get different failure modes and maybe a different order.

So, don't let one post on some component being bad in one guy's experience steer you in your choice of components.

I have used Federal brass from factory rounds in my .270 for years (along with some Winchester) and find it just fine for my purposes. If that is what you have, work with it for a while and learn what really works for your rifle in the way of bullets, powders and primers. THEN try some expensive brass and see if it gives you any noticeable improvement. My guess is that it won't unless you are (a) getting sub-0.5MOA groups and (b) your particular gun happens to like that brass better for some reason. Premium brass is so expensive, and its preformance is just not so much if any better, that it is just not worth the price for most of us.

SL1

whiplash · March 9, 2009, 11:04 AM

Just so you know. You dont always have to "pay a price" for 0.5" MOA. My Rem, Fed, Win, and even LC '68 brass works just fine. Some a little better than others. I dont buy 100, to sort for 20 good ones. I dont weight them or turn necks. I do deburr flashholes, and clean up/uniform primer pockets. I simply use whatever after shooting factory stuff, and that last for a while. My 700VS is similar to your 700PSS. I get at least 0.5 groups at 100yrds everytime. IF I am doing my part I can get 0.25, and one hole/cloverleaf groups arent uncommon. I dont think spending big money on high $ brass is required. It may help for some, but not always. Long story short...use what you have, if it works for you, then it works. If it doesnt, try another load. Ives always tried to make what I have work. If I dont have to spend big money, then why should I?

markr · March 9, 2009, 01:08 PM

All this controversy...........................

Whenever I buy commercial reloads at the range, the headstamps are almost always mixed. So yeah, they do have a place, under the right circumstances, and with the proper care when being re-loaded.

Obviously, if your looking for 1/2 MOA groups, and have the time, equipment, patience, money, and opportunity to neccessitate that endeovor, than worrying about headstamps is for you. If you just want some adequete loads for hunting and plinking 1 MOA groups, there is no reason you can't develop a safe, quality load with mixed headstamps. Hell, 3/4 of the people at the range don't shoot good enough to notice the difference!

March 7, 2009, 10:16 PM	#1
b money Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: Granville, IL Posts: 153	do I need to use all same head stamp brass Hello, I will be loading for .308win in a remington 700pss and I wont be in competitions so all I'm looking for is .5 moa or so. Im thinking about getting once fired brass with mixed head stamps(to save some $) but dont know if I should. so does it all need to be the same HS?????? Please help, thanks

March 8, 2009, 07:14 PM	#7
rn22723 Junior member Join Date: December 10, 2001 Location: Burbs of Minneapolis Posts: 676	You got some **** poor advice. NEVER EVER MIX HEADSTAMPS IN RIFLE RELOADS! The key to reloading is consistency. You need a large lot of brass to work up loads with of the same headstamp. 20 of this and 20 of that is a waste of time resources and money. Fed brass SUCKS! Short Case Life. Case capacity varies mfg to mfg. How does soome of the board posters figure that will help with consistency? The fact is that they are talking out of their terminal end of the their alimentary canal! Ergo use the same headstamp brass. A load worked up in WW brass shot in Fed brass may well ruin your day! 308 brass is hard to come by. The only real stuff around is Nosler and spendy, too! Messing with once fired LC brass is PITA as it may well have come from a machine gun. This may cause you to have to use a Small Base Sizer Die for the first reload! If you want 0.5"MOA you are going to pay a price! Get some Lapua a new batch is about to hit the USA shores soon! Last edited by rn22723; March 8, 2009 at 07:20 PM.

March 8, 2009, 10:08 PM	#8
totalloser Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Location: Fort Bragg, CA Posts: 679	I must be over my head. I thought I saw pretty good advice. As to sorting headstamps, I'd consider weighing cases anyhow. If you expect sub MOA, and your rifle is capable of it (most are not, but I would expect sub MOA for the first 1000 out of yours-till the leade in the throat stretches out WITH A TUNED LOAD) You will probably want to uniform the case neck, fire form your brass, neck size only, and uniform the primer pocket as well. If your cases are weighed, and uniformed, etc, the only difference possible that the accuracy can be affected by is the hardness of the neck of the brass, which will differ depending on the number of loads, as brass work hardens. I load virtually exclusively MG fired military brass in .223 and .308 (5.56 and 7.62x51), and don't bother with a SB sizer. I got one for 5.56/.223, and NEVER use it. I only expect 2", though out of my rifles (all semis). But I don't see why you couldn't get FINE accuracy out of military brass. LC is often purchased specifically for accuracy. Be prepared to deal with the crimp, though. __________________ You only truly believe in freedom if you believe in the freedom of those you disagree.

March 9, 2009, 05:14 AM	#9
cgaengineer Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 264	I was thinking the same thing totalloser... I don't see it written anywhere where someone suggested or even mentioned mixing head stamps. Even if you did decide to mix headstamps you would be fine as long as you were not at the max loads...but I am sure your accuracy would suffer. Like another poster said, just cull them into groups of 20-40 of the same head stamps and load those matching head stamps the same so your loads will be consistant. Case/Primer/Powder and seating depth all play a role to achieving maximum accuracy for your rifle. By the way, I own two of the PSS's and one LTR...all three are capable of better shooting then I can do. Last edited by cgaengineer; March 9, 2009 at 05:20 AM.

March 9, 2009, 01:08 PM	#12
markr Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: Arsenal of Democracy Posts: 405	All this controversy........................... Whenever I buy commercial reloads at the range, the headstamps are almost always mixed. So yeah, they do have a place, under the right circumstances, and with the proper care when being re-loaded. Obviously, if your looking for 1/2 MOA groups, and have the time, equipment, patience, money, and opportunity to neccessitate that endeovor, than worrying about headstamps is for you. If you just want some adequete loads for hunting and plinking 1 MOA groups, there is no reason you can't develop a safe, quality load with mixed headstamps. Hell, 3/4 of the people at the range don't shoot good enough to notice the difference! __________________ I like to make beer, bullets, and jerky.....but not at the same time. Washed up 11B1P

March 7, 2009, 10:31 PM	#2
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	.5 MOA? So you're just looking for plinking rounds? IMO, no, a batch of reloads don't have to be all one headstamp, but I doubt you would get that kind of accuracy if you intermix headstamps in a shot group. One very big caution though, you shouldn't go for a max load if you have worked up using one headstamp case type, and then start reloading a mixture. Different manufactured cases in the same caliber rarely have the same volume. So pressures will vary from case to case. Military brass, for example, is notorious for having less volume than the average commercial case. Less volume equals higher pressure for a given load. So, you can do it, but be cautious.

March 7, 2009, 11:28 PM	#3
cgaengineer Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2008 Posts: 264	Just sort what you buy by the headstamp. If you want to maintain accuracy it is advisable to sort headstamps. Different manufactures have varying thicknesses of brass that would change internal case volume which affects pressure.

March 8, 2009, 11:31 AM	#5
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I suggest that you buy some Federal Gold Metal Match Ammo and see what your rifle will do with that. It has a well-earned reputation for being very accurate in pretty-much any rifle that is accurate. That will tell you what to be looking for in the way of accuray from your handloads. Otherwise, you may drive yourself crazy trying to achieve accuracy that your rifle simply will not produce, doing all sorts of time-consuming things that won't help you. If your rifle (and you) can put the Gold Metal ammo in sub-MOA groups, then get a copy of Handloader #257 (December 2008) from Wolfe Publishing Company to see a really good article about what matters in developing accurate loads for the .308. You can order single copies from Wolfe at 1-800-899-7810. (Don't be surprised if you decide to suscribe.) SL1

March 8, 2009, 01:49 PM	#6
whiplash Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 334	as far as mixing headstamps. I think you should seperate the different brands, 20 of brand X, 20 of Y, and 20 of Z. If you stick to that youll have some consistancy with those 20. I have found that MY rifle shot better with brand X brass, than brand Y, with the same bullet/primer/powder. Now if you load with a mild powder charge, I dont think you will have any dangers with pressure. Yes, the different brands MAY have different volume. But I with a mild load I dont think its going to amount to much.

March 9, 2009, 08:49 AM	#10
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	That post about Federal brass being lousy is NOT consistent with the results in the Handloader article that I referenced. Federal plain (not plated) brass was right there (2nd) between Nosler and Lapua for accuracy with virgin (unfired) cases, and ahead of Norma (6th place). But, the average group size difference only went from 0.5000" to 0.5625" in those 6 places, and only Nosler was below 0.5313". When neck-sized once-fired cases were used, groups shrank and accuracy order changed. Nosler was still on top with 0.3281" and Federal plain was at 5th place with 0.4531. But, Federal plain was still above Lapua (0.5469") and Norma (0.5469"). Also Federal plain (13 reloadings) out-lasted Nosler (11), but not Lapua (15)or Norma (24) before failing in the "endurance test." But, that test went to case separation with full-length resizings at each reload. Different treatment of the caes would get different failure modes and maybe a different order. So, don't let one post on some component being bad in one guy's experience steer you in your choice of components. I have used Federal brass from factory rounds in my .270 for years (along with some Winchester) and find it just fine for my purposes. If that is what you have, work with it for a while and learn what really works for your rifle in the way of bullets, powders and primers. THEN try some expensive brass and see if it gives you any noticeable improvement. My guess is that it won't unless you are (a) getting sub-0.5MOA groups and (b) your particular gun happens to like that brass better for some reason. Premium brass is so expensive, and its preformance is just not so much if any better, that it is just not worth the price for most of us. SL1

March 9, 2009, 11:04 AM	#11
whiplash Senior Member Join Date: January 18, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 334	Just so you know. You dont always have to "pay a price" for 0.5" MOA. My Rem, Fed, Win, and even LC '68 brass works just fine. Some a little better than others. I dont buy 100, to sort for 20 good ones. I dont weight them or turn necks. I do deburr flashholes, and clean up/uniform primer pockets. I simply use whatever after shooting factory stuff, and that last for a while. My 700VS is similar to your 700PSS. I get at least 0.5 groups at 100yrds everytime. IF I am doing my part I can get 0.25, and one hole/cloverleaf groups arent uncommon. I dont think spending big money on high $ brass is required. It may help for some, but not always. Long story short...use what you have, if it works for you, then it works. If it doesnt, try another load. Ives always tried to make what I have work. If I dont have to spend big money, then why should I?