Carrying different weapons

[txinvestigator]

Just a thought.

Who carrys different weapons on different occasions that have different manual of arms?

When I switched to a 1911 I quite carrying my Beretta 92 at all. They each have a seperate method of operation. The Beretta safety works opposite of the 1911.

When the SHTF, one WILL revert to training and instinct. The mentality to think, "oh wait, today I am carrying the Beretta, so if I use my thumb to sweep down, I will actually engage the safety", will not be there.

I will carry my Beretta 85, as the safety is exacty like the 1911. I would aso carry a revolver or XD, as it matters not that I sweep my thumb down.

So, what say you?

[U.F.O.]

At the range I work about 60% with my primary (1911) and 40% with my backup/sometime primary (Kahr PM9). I have no problem with any manual of arms confusion. I will say, however, that I passed on buying a Ruger P-345 .45 cal. because the thumb safety worked in the opposite direction of my Colt .45. It felt creepy. I can see where trying to work between 2 totally different MOA could get confusing in a stress situation. The 1911/Kahr are similar enough to not present me with any obvious problem. Also, practice with each consistently helps breed familiarity.

U.F.O.

[seb5]

For the last 5 years I've had to carry the issued Glock 23. It does'nt slow me down but I still bring down the thumb. Old habits die hard. Other than the Glock I very frequently carry S&W revolvers. It does'nt confuse me at all. I think it depends on the individual and the amount of quality training rounds you put down range with that weapon. In the past I've also carried Beretta's and Sig's and either one would be fine as well. My familiarlity has taken me the better part of 30 years of hand gunning to acquire. For a new shooter I would strongly reccommend 1 type of firearm until he/she is totally confident and competent with thier chosen weapon before moving onto something else.

[Phil306]

When I became a police officer, I was issued a Sig P226. That is the only handgun I own and the only one I ever train with. Why go to a training class with something I won't be carrying everyday???

[txinvestigator]

I don't think it matters if you carry a gun that has no external safety.

[Arizona Fusilier]

I have always been leary of the probability of being "confused" at the wrong moment. But it has not stopped me from aquiring quite a few different handguns.

I attempt to mitigate this to some degree by carrying similar "manual of arms" in simalar ways, and carrying others differently.

For example, I carry my Glocks and my Sigs with thumb-break holsters. My Beretta I carry exclusively in a Bianchi military full-flap holster. My Colt Officer's Model and my CZ-75 both go in open top strong-side rigs. When I start to deal with the holster, the additional "muscle memory" kicks in to get my thumb going the right way (or not).

But this could be overkill. Truth is I can't pack heat at work, so it stays in the car. I physically do not carry a weapon on my body every day. If that was the case (such as in law enforcement), I might be more cautious.

[43061]

This is a topic that I have discussed with some of my friends over the years and I seemed to be the only one even slightly concerned about it so this thread piqued my interest.

I carry a GLOCK 22, Remington 870, and Olympic Arms AR15 carbine on duty. The Remington is not an issued weapon, but I have written permission from the Chief and Mayor to carry it instead of a city issued Smith & Wesson 916A. This is in line with department policy and procedures.

I therefore chose a GLOCK 23 as an off duty weapon because of the similar characteristics it shares with my model 22. There will undoubtedly be those that wouldn’t have a problem switching from one handgun to another. I’m okay with you not having any difficulty switching back and forth, in fact that’s kind of cool, but shooting paper targets without stress is different than a life or death situation. I choose to have the least amount of distractions if I ever face a threat to my life or my family’s lives.

I also own a second Remington 870 and a Rock River Arms AR15 carbine. I shoot them twenty times as often as my duty long guns, but again I have kept things as simple as possible. I know simple solutions for simple minds!

I have owned a Browning BPS for a couple years and as hard as it might be to imagine hadn’t fired it until this past pheasant season. I had been firing the Remington quite a bit all summer and it showed the first few times my dog flushed pheasants. The safety is different, the trigger pull is different, the release is in a different location, and the barrel is eight inches longer. My poor dog was disgusted, in fact I think he said something about he was doing his job and wanted to know why I wasn’t holding up my end of the deal. I finally handed him the shotgun and said, “If you think you can do better, take this.”

I didn’t really have a problem with his doing a better job knocking down pheasants until on the trip home he wanted to stop and have one of them mounted. I just don’t want to have to face that kind of humiliation every day. You know what would happen every time one of his dog friends stopped over. He’d want in the house so he could show them the pheasant and he’d start the story off telling them how poor a shot I was and how he saved the entire day by shooting every single bird I flushed for him…..

[LAK]

I have basically stayed with 1911 function pistols for the best part of almost 30 years, though I really do not have a problem with DA pistols. But I regularly carry a Hi-Power, and other times a revolver, which are about as far apart in the manual of arms department as it gets. It is perhaps a good idea to enter some mental preparation when switching this way so that whatever one happens to strap on becomes a sort of part of the mindset for the day. In the case of a revolver the difference in grip feel should help with an immediate association with one or the other.

[PsychoSword]

When the SHTF, one WILL revert to training and instinct.

So they say. I hear this all the time and I just gotta wonder what is so confusing between a different mode of operation for a safety? It's like from switching from one knife to another. I think it's over analyzing the situation when there are alot more important things to worry about.

[U.F.O.]

I agree Psycho. I drive two different cars. One's an H2, the other is a souped up Honda Prelude 5 speed manual shift turbo. You couldn't create two more different automotive manual of arms. I'm extremely comfortable alternating between the two regardless of how stressful the traffic situation. I think a lot of shooters don't give themselves credit on their ability to learn more than one weapon's system. The "common wisdom" of sticking with only one MOA is incorrect, IMO, and the danger of not doing so is another Internet myth perpetuated by folks who haven't practiced enough to do it successfully.

U.F.O.

[txinvestigator]

Driving a car is not the same as having someone trying to kill you. My wifes car has a center console shifter, mine on the steering column. When I drive hers I reach for the column nearly every time.

And this has been proven many, many times in the LE community. You will not have access to your intellect in a deadly force encounter.

Many cops have been injured or killed because they trained with their saferty off, but carried safety on.

Ask the CHP officers at Newhall about reverting to training.

LA SWAT officers are issued 2 1911's, one without a light rail to fit in the standard uniform holster so they can carry the same firearm. They do not carry a Beretta in standard uniform and a Kimber while on SWAT assignment.

And this is nothing I have learned from the internet, but from actual training and studying actual field cases.

But hey, its not my rear end.

[U.F.O.]

You don't think driving a car can induce the same type of panic response that a deadly force encounter can? I strongly disagree. Next time some idiot on a piece of two lane blacktop is trying to pass on a hill and is headed straight for you and your family at 85 mph, remember this thread.

U.F.O.

[43061]

Maybe it’s just me. I was in the Army when we switched from .38 cal revolvers to 9mm semi-automatics. I had a heck of a time getting used to the extra travel in the trigger. I never failed to qualify Expert even with the switch, but muscle memory was something I had to overcome with lots of shooting on my own dime.

I again had difficulty switching to an entirely new gun along with a different way of standing, grip, distance, etc. when I retired and became a cop. There is very little similarity between the two methods taught.

I qualified with my GLOCK 22 before I went to the academy with a single missed shot, but after 40 hours of instruction from God only knows how many firearms instructors looking over my shoulder I barely qualified.

I’m happy that some of you don’t have the same amount of difficulty as I do, but for my simple pea brain I need the least amount of things to think about when firing at paper.

Some thing I noticed myself doing that has nothing to do with shooting, but does show how my brain works without a lot of thought behind the action. I’m on for 72 hours and then off for 72 hours. When I’m off I catch myself reaching for the radar remote which isn’t there when I see someone speeding.

That same sort of doing it without realizing it is what will be needed to win a gunfight. I therefore have chosen to keep things as simple as possible. Again, that is what I chose for myself, I honestly don’t care how you choose to keep out one of those boxes that are so much easier to get into than out of.

[Walter]

I have three different 'carry' weapons I use at one time or another, and they
all operate differently. My 1911 .45, I carry cocked and locked, regardless
of when or where. My PPK .380 I carry hammer down, safety off, DA
ready. My CZ RAMI, I carry at half-cock, DA ready.

The 1911 is the gun I am most comfortable with. There was a time, that for
months on end, when I slept, I slept with a 1911 cocked and locked, in my
hand, with my finger on the trigger and my thumb on the safety. I was a blooperman, and my "up-close" protection was that 1911. It became an
extension of my hand, almost. The 1911 is so ingrained in me that I could
probably strip one and clean it in my sleep.

The other two guns I carry are different, but also the same. The PPK has
a de-cocker, the RAMI doesn't. But they are both safe to carry "off-safe"
with the hammer down. So all I have to do is pull, aim, and fire. Just like
a revolver, no safety to bother with.

Since I am not a LEO, and any gunfight I might get into would be pure
"happenstance", I don't feel any conflict at all with switching around
my "carry" weapons. I feel comfortable with them all. I believe my
skills of observation and my alertness to a possible "situation" are more
important to my well-being than whatever handgun I may be carrying.

And, since I am just a private citizen with a Concealed Carry license, I
will have to justify "deadly force" in my own mind before I draw a gun.
If I have time for all that thought process, I think I can figure out which
gun I am carrying.

Walter

[Entry Red]

Keep it simple. CZ-85 SA and 1911's only. Same safety. Bug in a front pocket.

[txinvestigator]

OK, you guys who have never trained force on force or been in a violent encounter, or have studied and train people for violent encounters know better than those who have.

[jerryd]

Full size, commander, or ultra all one platform, no confusion!

[Mannlicher]

I think this is a non issue.

I carry one (or more) of about two dozen possible handguns. I switch guns often, either on a whim or to meet clothing, destination, or other choices.
I have never felt that this in any way, compromised my ability to function if the situation 'went South' in a hurry.
You don't get proficient by reading books, or going to the range once a month. You get proficient by constant practice, and by attending training with good instructors.

[seb5]

OK, you guys who have never trained force on force or been in a violent encounter, or have studied and train people for violent encounters know better than those who have.

Tex, I understand what you are saying but there is no reason to be dogmatic about it. What works for you is not for everybody. As far as being an expert, whatever that is I am not. I am a full time LEO firearms instructor with 100's if not 1000's of hours at various schools, lots of it with Sims. Everyone of us on the SWAT team is issued a sim kit with our primary. After 14 years at it I have been in violent encounters and train lots of cops. I've even been to a few classes in your neck of the woods for TTPOA.

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong, you're just not right for all of us.

[U.F.O.]

"OK, you guys who have never trained force on force or been in a violent encounter, or have studied and train people for violent encounters know better than those who have."

Nice Tx. You'll make lots of friends and influence many trivializing anyone's opinions that don't happen to match yours. Be sure and stick to that one, strict manual of arms. And for gosh sakes.....leave the bubble gum alone while you're walking too.

U.F.O.

[stevelyn]

This was a topic that came up during my police firearms instructor class. Some of the students felt that since we were going to teach a specific platform that we need to stick with that particular platform including the compacts-subcompacts under all circumstances (in our case the majority of us carry Glocks). Not all of us agreed with Glocks or nothing idea since most of us shoot/own different handguns in addition to our issue weapons.
I do believe that if I'm shooting another type of handgun that I should give equal time to my carry/duty piece.

[Jungle Work]

I'm new here and I not an X-purt, but I've kinda always felt it depended on the individual who was carrying the pistol. Me, I've been shooting pistols for 51 years and teaching other officers for the last 27. Some can and some can't deal with different off/on switches on a pistol. It usually depends on whether the person is a shooter, how intelligent they are and how much experience they have with different types of pistols.

I believe for the average officer or ocassional shooter that carries a pistol for self defense should carry pistols that work the same.

Jungle Work

[chris in va]

This is why I got the XD-9. No extra levers to worry about when the SHTF. Grab-n-go.

Many times at the range I've forgotten my safety is on when using the Ruger 22/45. That's not good for defensive purposes...fine for the range.

[Jeff22]

It's probably best to stick to a similar "manual of arms" if you can.

For example, M1911 pattern pistols and the Browning High Power have a similar arrangement of external controls.

Conventional S&W Autos and most Berettas and Walthers work the same. (I would NEVER carry a conventional DA/SA "on safe". There is no logical reason to)

Glocks and Kahrs work the same.

Conventional SIGs work the same (excluding the DAO and DAK guns).

However, I've accumulated a lot of guns over the years, revolvers, SA auto pistols, DA/SA auto pistols, and other "self decocking" guns like a DAK Sig, Glock 19 and Kahr P9.

Most of my practice is with my duty gun (currently a Sig 226R-DAK in .40) and with my most often utilized off-duty guns, a SIG 230 and Kahr P9. But I work other guns "into the rotation" if I can (none of us can never get enough range time).

I have found that once you build up a set of skills to operate a given weapons system, given some practice once in a while, you keep those skills. New skills/reflexes don't get imprinted over the top of old skills, they exist in ADDITION to old skills, but the old skills do need to be refreshed and renewed sometimes.

So the best advice is to keep your battery simple and of a similar operating system if you can, but it is possible to switch around without detriment fiven frequent practice.

[yorec]

When the adrenalin's pumping and you have to act right now, things happen...

I've seen an officer "miss" a safety that he knew needed to be switched off and with which he was used to. Had used before and trainned with - It was the only type he worked with, in fact! Mashed and mashed on the trigger and couldn't get it to go off - all the while I was struggling with a suspect, desperately needing his help. I finally gainned the upperhand and the fight was over without him, and that officer never did get it to fire - couldn't operate the safety properly under the adrenalin dump. And no - he's not an incompetent boob who shouldn't wear a badge, but we both learned a valuable lesson that day. Glad it was only a pepper spray situation and not a deadly force one...

I can see that switching safeties on firearms would not be good thing and I prefer to carry firearms without them. (Revolvers, Glocks, Sigma, etc.)

But at the same time, I don't have anything against carrying a single safety type. But don't think it's a good idea to mix and match.