Different types of powder

gdeal · August 20, 2009, 06:38 PM

Quote:

I try use powders that fill the case over half full. If I double charge, powder would overflow the case and it's pretty obvious.

I reload for the .40 S&W and I'm looking for a powder that would overflow the case in the event of a double charge.

gdeal · August 20, 2009, 06:51 PM

I reload for the .40 S&W and I'm looking for a powder that is so dense that you would be able to tell the difference with a completed cartridge on a scale in the event of a no charge.

Inspector3711 · August 20, 2009, 08:59 PM

I would repost your question like this... I reload for the "your cartridge" and I'm looking for a powder that would overflow the case in the event of a double charge. (Just copy what i wrote and paste it, then put your cartridge info in).

Title your post: Help with the "your cartridge".

I think someone would step right up then.

Draciron · August 21, 2009, 10:57 AM

Giving topic a bump because I am about to start reloading for that critter. All the load data I've seen for the .40 have either been really low performing or with powders like tite group which is really easy to double charge.

Sevens · August 21, 2009, 11:05 AM

I would think that Alliant Power Pistol would be a good choice. Works well in this type of cartridge, meters well, decent sized charges that should overflow the case on a double charge.

In the end, however, I will simply state that there's at least a dozen different reasons why you might choose a particular powder. This reason is far down the list for me (not for others.) I would take a long, hard look at your process and a better way to ensure the quality of your handloads if you need to make your powder choice based solely on the prospect of a double charge.

And I don't mean to be disrespectful or uppity when I say that-- I just really, really mean it. Your process should include safeguards against this happening, you should have to settle for using a powder that does it for you.

Alleykat · August 21, 2009, 11:23 AM

AA#7!!!

kidcoltoutlaw · August 21, 2009, 11:35 AM

will do it and it works for 40 9mm and 45 and lite loads in the 44,

Thanks,Keith

snuffy · August 21, 2009, 11:40 AM

It has to do with density, period. There's nothing on the can of powder or anything said by the powder companies about density. Simple terms are bulky, or on the other end dense powders. Basically ball powder is denser per grain than flake type. For handgun there's almost no tubular/stick type powders,(the one exemption I know of is IMR 4227).

One new powder that is out is Hodgdon trail boss. It's hollow disk looks like tiny cheerios. It takes up a lot of room, but it's output is anemic, because it burns very fast.

In rifle powders the old standby for bulky power is IMR-4759. Accurate didn't want to feel left out, so they came up with XMR 5744? (I think that's the number). 4759 is made like tiny tubes. Stick powder with a hole through the middle. The purpose was to eliminate the extra space in old black powder cartridges. To get close to load densities of 100%. Meaning, the powder is against the base of the bullet. Better ignition, no position sensitivity.

Some manuals will give load density for rifle cartridges. None give load densities for handgun. Basically the slower burn rate powders for handgun WILL have higher load densities. It takes more of the slower powders to get to the velocity level you're striving for.

The lee manual has CC's given for each powder charge. It MAY be possible to correlate those figures to load density. Too much work for me! Since most of my handgun loading is done on a dillon 650, the powder check system warns of a no-charge, or double charge very reliably. So load density is NOT a consideration for me.

**Unclenick** · August 21, 2009, 11:45 AM

Some heavier bullets, like the 180 grain XTP, will seat deep enough that less than half the case volume is left underneath the bullet. That means that even a charge that uses 100% of that space would not overflow when doubled. It's a physical impossibility. And it's OK. Overflow is not essential. You just want to be able, when you look down into the case, to see that the powder level is obviously too high compared to your normal charge.

kidcoltoutlaw · August 21, 2009, 11:50 AM

Nosler does,

Thanks,Keith

BigJimP · August 21, 2009, 12:07 PM

Putting a completed round on a scale - so you can tell if its double charged - is not likely to work for you.

There is too much variation in the weight of the cases / especially if you mix head stamps ( and most of us do ) - and depending on the bullet you load, especially the cheaper bullets like Rainier - they can vary 3 or 4 grains on a 180gr bullet ...

But the idea of using a bulky powder - so you can more easily tell if you have a problem is probably smart to start with. I don't know of a Hodgdon or Unique powder that will give you that result though ... but there are a lot more powders out there that might .... I will ask a few buddies / and edit this if I find one .

**Unclenick** · August 21, 2009, 12:09 PM

Snuffy,

FYI, the QuickLOAD program calculates load densities automatically based on the bulk density numbers in their database. Saves you the bother.

The powder density issue can be confusing for a couple of reasons. First is because powders have three different densities associated with them:

Solid density; the density not including the spaces between the grains.
Bulk density; the density including the spaces between the grains.
Energy density; the stored chemical energy, usually given in joules/cc, with spaces between grains included.

Bulk density is the one you are interested in for figuring out powder measures and case overflow and compression level. The second source of confusion comes from the fact it can vary 10% pretty easily. Anyone who has never tried loading a stick powder with a drop tube would be amazed to see how much the bulk density can be increased just by how the powder packs down when falling into the case.

Nick

BigJimP · August 21, 2009, 12:37 PM

Unique Bullseys - is considered fairly bulky but in .40 S&W its only calling for 5.5 - 6.0 grains max depending on which bullet you select to reload.

Hodgdon Longshot - calls for a max of 8 grains in a 180gr bullet / so that may work for you visually ( because 16grains would be pretty bulky ) - Longshot gives you a higher velocity than many other options, so a little more snap to it ...which you may not like. I find Longshot dirty in handguns / although I use it in some high velocity 12ga reloads... ( for 1 1/8 oz loads at 1400 - 1500 fps which is very fast ...) it'll thump you a little there too..

NWPilgrim · August 21, 2009, 12:39 PM

Generally, the slower the powder the more weight you need and the more volume it takes up.

For instance, Red Dot and Bullseye are fast powders and you don't need but a few grains of weight per case. On the other end Herco, AA #7, HS-6 etc are slower powders and you may need twice the weight per case.

I switched from WW231 (ball powder) to Unique (flake) partly for this reason. Even though it takes just a little more Unique by weight for the same cartridge (say 6 grains of Unique instead of 5 grains of WW231), the Unique takes up much more space.

I think Unique is a good balance between economy (number of charges per pound) and bulk that easily fits into most loadings yet is very noticeable if you double charge. Some of my light target loads of WW231 in .38 Special were so light and of such small volume it was hard to see all the way down into the case to verify it was charged OK.

Anything in the Unique or slightly slower range ought to fit your needs: Unique, Universal, Herco, Power Pistol, AA #5 or #7, etc.

Inspector3711 · August 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

I love the HS-6 for .40 S&W but it's definiteley easy to double charge. I use a progressive and still check each case to make sure it has a single charge before I seat bullets. HS-6 in a mid range load from the Hornady pushing 155 grain XTP's is THE most accurate load I've found for my XDm. My buddy tried some in his sig and was quite surprized.. I believe he went out and bought some HS-6 after that.

It's no good if you're afraid of a double charge though unless you religiously check each load visually and know that 1 charge is just below half full and two is near the top.

**Mike Irwin** · August 21, 2009, 02:02 PM

Trail Boss was designed for the Cowboy Action Shooter.

There were a lot of conflicting issues that needed to be resolved with this powder...

They wanted a powder that would take up a lot of case volume to give good loading density and consistent ignition in the big cases.

They also wanted a powder that could be used with some degree of safety when reloading cartridges for guns that were made in the black powder days, such as the old Colt SAAs and S&W Schofields.

They also wanted a powder that would do well with cast bullets.

And they wanted a powder that could also be used in the yesteryear rifles and still maintain a good loading density.

IMR met those parameters very well, but in doing so they really created a speciality powder that is really only suitable for lead bullets (it doesn't perform well with jacketed bullets) in moderate to low power loads.

Trail Boss is the closest thing we have had to a bulk replacement smokeless powder since just after World War II.

In short, if you want to shoot .40, 9mm, or some of the other hot performers, Trail Boss isn't your load.

If, however, you want to match original factory ballistics on the .44 Special, .45 Colt, or .44-40, Trail Boss is perfect.

kidcoltoutlaw · August 21, 2009, 03:12 PM

what press are you using ? You could use a powder checker die or a powder cop if you have room for it. I use Unique because it fills the case enough that you can see the powder in the case without having to bend forward and look for it plus it is very accurate in all of my 40's 9mm's and 45's. Longshot will fill the case and it gives velocity that is unreal with a 180,

Thanks,Keith

snuffy · August 21, 2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Snuffy,

FYI, the QuickLOAD program calculates load densities automatically based on the bulk density numbers in their database. Saves you the bother.

Thanks Nick, it looks more and more that I need to get quick load!

That feature alone would be worth the cost!? There's a lot more I don't know than I DO know, that would close the gap a bit.

Quote:

kidcoltoutlaw Nosler does,

Thanks,Keith

Where?

Nosler doesn't for rifle, but I can't/couldn't find it for handgun calibers. They DO list when a load is compressed with a +.

dsv424 · August 21, 2009, 03:56 PM

I don't reload .40 S&W but I do reload 10mm and I think if you were to use Blue Dot it would probably at least fill the case so it would be real noticeable if you were to double charge.

kidcoltoutlaw · August 21, 2009, 04:04 PM

New Nosler book,

Thanks,Keith

Brian Pfleuger · August 21, 2009, 04:39 PM

Color me not an expert, but AA#9 would do the trick..... wouldn't it?

The case capacity is only a couple thousandths off from the 357sig, and #9 makes for a compressed load in the sig...

gdeal · August 21, 2009, 04:46 PM

Quote:

In the end, however, I will simply state that there's at least a dozen different reasons why you might choose a particular powder.

Does anyone know the best Powder/Primer/Bullet combo for a S&W M&P 40c?
Since I have a Lee Turret Press, I can only use CCi or Win primers but as far as Powder and Bullets I can pick. I KNOW that I can get the suggested info from the manuals and I will but I wanted to ask anyway.

Brian Pfleuger · August 21, 2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Since I have a Lee Turret Press, I can only use CCi or Win primers

Why is that? I have never seen that tidbit before.

Not that it matters much, I can find ANY primers, so a particular brand isn't much of an issue.

gdeal · August 21, 2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Why is that? I have never seen that tidbit before

That's a disclaimer that Lee has. They said not to use Federal or something like that. I will read it again when I get the press.

Brian Pfleuger · August 21, 2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

That's a disclaimer that Lee has. They said not to use Federal or something like that.

No kidding!? I read all through my instructions and didn't see that.... did I miss it or is it on their website?

August 20, 2009, 06:51 PM	#2
gdeal Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 748	Double Charge vs. No Charge I reload for the .40 S&W and I'm looking for a powder that is so dense that you would be able to tell the difference with a completed cartridge on a scale in the event of a no charge. Last edited by gdeal; August 20, 2009 at 10:14 PM. Reason: .

August 20, 2009, 08:59 PM	#3
Inspector3711 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2008 Location: Puget Sound Washington Posts: 1,553	I would repost your question like this... I reload for the "your cartridge" and I'm looking for a powder that would overflow the case in the event of a double charge. (Just copy what i wrote and paste it, then put your cartridge info in). Title your post: Help with the "your cartridge". I think someone would step right up then. __________________ "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Llama (5/15/01, The Seattle Times) "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell

August 21, 2009, 11:40 AM	#8
snuffy Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2001 Location: Oshkosh wi. Posts: 3,055	It has to do with density, period. There's nothing on the can of powder or anything said by the powder companies about density. Simple terms are bulky, or on the other end dense powders. Basically ball powder is denser per grain than flake type. For handgun there's almost no tubular/stick type powders,(the one exemption I know of is IMR 4227). One new powder that is out is Hodgdon trail boss. It's hollow disk looks like tiny cheerios. It takes up a lot of room, but it's output is anemic, because it burns very fast. In rifle powders the old standby for bulky power is IMR-4759. Accurate didn't want to feel left out, so they came up with XMR 5744? (I think that's the number). 4759 is made like tiny tubes. Stick powder with a hole through the middle. The purpose was to eliminate the extra space in old black powder cartridges. To get close to load densities of 100%. Meaning, the powder is against the base of the bullet. Better ignition, no position sensitivity. Some manuals will give load density for rifle cartridges. None give load densities for handgun. Basically the slower burn rate powders for handgun WILL have higher load densities. It takes more of the slower powders to get to the velocity level you're striving for. The lee manual has CC's given for each powder charge. It MAY be possible to correlate those figures to load density. Too much work for me! Since most of my handgun loading is done on a dillon 650, the powder check system warns of a no-charge, or double charge very reliably. So load density is NOT a consideration for me. __________________ The more people I meet, the more I love my dog They're going to get their butts kicked over there this election. How come people can't spell and use words correctly?

August 21, 2009, 11:50 AM	#10
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	None give load densities for handgun Nosler does, Thanks,Keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

August 21, 2009, 12:09 PM	#12
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Snuffy, FYI, the QuickLOAD program calculates load densities automatically based on the bulk density numbers in their database. Saves you the bother. The powder density issue can be confusing for a couple of reasons. First is because powders have three different densities associated with them: Solid density; the density not including the spaces between the grains. Bulk density; the density including the spaces between the grains. Energy density; the stored chemical energy, usually given in joules/cc, with spaces between grains included. Bulk density is the one you are interested in for figuring out powder measures and case overflow and compression level. The second source of confusion comes from the fact it can vary 10% pretty easily. Anyone who has never tried loading a stick powder with a drop tube would be amazed to see how much the bulk density can be increased just by how the powder packs down when falling into the case. Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; August 21, 2009 at 05:31 PM. Reason: typo

August 21, 2009, 10:57 AM	#4
Draciron Member Join Date: May 19, 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 35	Giving topic a bump because I am about to start reloading for that critter. All the load data I've seen for the .40 have either been really low performing or with powders like tite group which is really easy to double charge.

August 21, 2009, 11:05 AM	#5
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,755	I would think that Alliant Power Pistol would be a good choice. Works well in this type of cartridge, meters well, decent sized charges that should overflow the case on a double charge. In the end, however, I will simply state that there's at least a dozen different reasons why you might choose a particular powder. This reason is far down the list for me (not for others.) I would take a long, hard look at your process and a better way to ensure the quality of your handloads if you need to make your powder choice based solely on the prospect of a double charge. And I don't mean to be disrespectful or uppity when I say that-- I just really, really mean it. Your process should include safeguards against this happening, you should have to settle for using a powder that does it for you. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

August 21, 2009, 11:23 AM	#6
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	AA#7!!!

August 21, 2009, 11:35 AM	#7
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	Unique will do it and it works for 40 9mm and 45 and lite loads in the 44, Thanks,Keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

August 21, 2009, 11:45 AM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,057	Some heavier bullets, like the 180 grain XTP, will seat deep enough that less than half the case volume is left underneath the bullet. That means that even a charge that uses 100% of that space would not overflow when doubled. It's a physical impossibility. And it's OK. Overflow is not essential. You just want to be able, when you look down into the case, to see that the powder level is obviously too high compared to your normal charge. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 21, 2009, 12:07 PM	#11
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Putting a completed round on a scale - so you can tell if its double charged - is not likely to work for you. There is too much variation in the weight of the cases / especially if you mix head stamps ( and most of us do ) - and depending on the bullet you load, especially the cheaper bullets like Rainier - they can vary 3 or 4 grains on a 180gr bullet ... But the idea of using a bulky powder - so you can more easily tell if you have a problem is probably smart to start with. I don't know of a Hodgdon or Unique powder that will give you that result though ... but there are a lot more powders out there that might .... I will ask a few buddies / and edit this if I find one .

August 21, 2009, 12:37 PM	#13
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Unique Bullseys - is considered fairly bulky but in .40 S&W its only calling for 5.5 - 6.0 grains max depending on which bullet you select to reload. Hodgdon Longshot - calls for a max of 8 grains in a 180gr bullet / so that may work for you visually ( because 16grains would be pretty bulky ) - Longshot gives you a higher velocity than many other options, so a little more snap to it ...which you may not like. I find Longshot dirty in handguns / although I use it in some high velocity 12ga reloads... ( for 1 1/8 oz loads at 1400 - 1500 fps which is very fast ...) it'll thump you a little there too..

August 21, 2009, 12:39 PM	#14
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	Generally, the slower the powder the more weight you need and the more volume it takes up. For instance, Red Dot and Bullseye are fast powders and you don't need but a few grains of weight per case. On the other end Herco, AA #7, HS-6 etc are slower powders and you may need twice the weight per case. I switched from WW231 (ball powder) to Unique (flake) partly for this reason. Even though it takes just a little more Unique by weight for the same cartridge (say 6 grains of Unique instead of 5 grains of WW231), the Unique takes up much more space. I think Unique is a good balance between economy (number of charges per pound) and bulk that easily fits into most loadings yet is very noticeable if you double charge. Some of my light target loads of WW231 in .38 Special were so light and of such small volume it was hard to see all the way down into the case to verify it was charged OK. Anything in the Unique or slightly slower range ought to fit your needs: Unique, Universal, Herco, Power Pistol, AA #5 or #7, etc. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

August 21, 2009, 01:30 PM	#15
Inspector3711 Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2008 Location: Puget Sound Washington Posts: 1,553	I love the HS-6 for .40 S&W but it's definiteley easy to double charge. I use a progressive and still check each case to make sure it has a single charge before I seat bullets. HS-6 in a mid range load from the Hornady pushing 155 grain XTP's is THE most accurate load I've found for my XDm. My buddy tried some in his sig and was quite surprized.. I believe he went out and bought some HS-6 after that. It's no good if you're afraid of a double charge though unless you religiously check each load visually and know that 1 charge is just below half full and two is near the top. __________________ "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." The Dalai Llama (5/15/01, The Seattle Times) "That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." George Orwell

August 21, 2009, 02:02 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Trail Boss was designed for the Cowboy Action Shooter. There were a lot of conflicting issues that needed to be resolved with this powder... They wanted a powder that would take up a lot of case volume to give good loading density and consistent ignition in the big cases. They also wanted a powder that could be used with some degree of safety when reloading cartridges for guns that were made in the black powder days, such as the old Colt SAAs and S&W Schofields. They also wanted a powder that would do well with cast bullets. And they wanted a powder that could also be used in the yesteryear rifles and still maintain a good loading density. IMR met those parameters very well, but in doing so they really created a speciality powder that is really only suitable for lead bullets (it doesn't perform well with jacketed bullets) in moderate to low power loads. Trail Boss is the closest thing we have had to a bulk replacement smokeless powder since just after World War II. In short, if you want to shoot .40, 9mm, or some of the other hot performers, Trail Boss isn't your load. If, however, you want to match original factory ballistics on the .44 Special, .45 Colt, or .44-40, Trail Boss is perfect. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 21, 2009, 03:12 PM	#17
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	Press what press are you using ? You could use a powder checker die or a powder cop if you have room for it. I use Unique because it fills the case enough that you can see the powder in the case without having to bend forward and look for it plus it is very accurate in all of my 40's 9mm's and 45's. Longshot will fill the case and it gives velocity that is unreal with a 180, Thanks,Keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

August 21, 2009, 03:56 PM	#19
dsv424 Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2008 Location: Dallas, Tx. Posts: 266	I don't reload .40 S&W but I do reload 10mm and I think if you were to use Blue Dot it would probably at least fill the case so it would be real noticeable if you were to double charge.

August 21, 2009, 04:04 PM	#20
kidcoltoutlaw Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: bluefield Posts: 735	Did you check the New Nosler book, Thanks,Keith __________________ It's not just a gun it's the symbol of freedom

August 21, 2009, 04:39 PM	#21
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Color me not an expert, but AA#9 would do the trick..... wouldn't it? The case capacity is only a couple thousandths off from the 357sig, and #9 makes for a compressed load in the sig... __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley Last edited by Brian Pfleuger; August 21, 2009 at 04:44 PM.

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