The 9mm is useless!

[johnwilliamson062]

If I hit an intruder with 2 or 3 decently placed 9mm HP rounds and he doesn't go down until paramedics arrive, I am switching into zombie apocalypse mode and grabbing my SKS.

[White Rice]

9mm works well in the military because it is usually used to shoot other military.

.45 works better in SD because you are shooting civilian aggressors.

Now, you can all think whatever you want about this as far as ammo capacity to be carried etc, but you'd be wrong.


Consider this. I was in the Marines. My priority 1A was killing the people on the other side. Priority 1B was not getting killed. These two priorities could flip-flop all the time.

In battle, I am scared. I am not angry. I have nothing in particular against the other guy on the other side than I want him not to shoot me. If I get shot, I would immediately shift into preservation mode, not destructive mode. I'd try to stay alive and would either not be shooting or shooting defensively until I could be evacuated unless the wound was very minor.

Almost any wound from any cartridge would stop me from being an aggressor unless it was a graze or non-bleeding flesh wound, if those even exist.

9mm and less are more than adequate for this.

Now lets take the self defense situation. Ruling out walking in on a home break-in, its likely that the attacker is not only very close to me and within range to kill me with their bare hands, the person is probably angry. Anger will make a person continue to attack when a soldier will seek cover and treatment.

In these cases, a 9mm may be adequate. But overcoming angry aggression is more difficult than taking our a longer range military target. The SD aggressor also realizes that if he can take you out, the battle is over and he wins whatever goal he had in mind. Enemy combatants understand that if they are wounded, they aren't going to be able to single handedly take out another sides military unit, even as small as a rifle squad before they become incapacitated from blood loss or shock.

These are two different situations and people should understand this.

[teeroux]

Shot placement will always trump caliber.

No matter what you have to choose from.

[rgillis]

Sten gun @ 100yards

Coyote,
Are you doubting the validity of the 100 yard sten? If so, I'm with you brother!

[BillCA]

Both Guntotin_Fool and White_Rice made points similar to what I'm going to make, albeit in a different way.

Why does everyone complain about the 9mm?

I have never read any reports, or heard any complaints from soldiers in WW II.

The mp-40 and the sten seemed to work great. I have never heard anyone say that the mp-40 or sten were useless.

If I was in WW II and I had the chance to pick my weapon, I would pick an mp-40 or sten.

Great for up to 100 yards(the official designfor WW II was that it was good for 200 yards)

Why was the 9 mm a great choice for WW II but useless for us in 2008?

You're comparing apples & oranges here.

The WW-II 9mm cartridge was a hotter round than most of today's commercially produced ammo. On top of that, SMG ammo was typically marked with a black or purple tip in Germany because it was even hotter than the pistol ammo in order to run the SMGs reliably.

So, in the first instance, we're comparing today's commercial ammo to hotter WW-II military ammo.

In the second place, as White_Rice pointed out, in a military situation, if a soldier is wounded he is generally out of the fight for some period of time. That time may only be as long as it takes him to dress the wound or it may be painful/debilitating enough that he ceases to be a viable threat.

This is quite different from the civilian situation where you are in close contact with your assailant due to a robbery, assault, rape or homicide attempt. In the civilian case, failure to quickly neutralize your assailant can result in serious or fatal injury to you. Using a WW-II 9mm FMJ might or might not stop said CQB assailant. Using a 124g 9mm +P Speer Gold Dot that expands gives you much better odds.

One also has to remember that in warfare, if your 9mm SMG brings down an enemy soldier with one hit, it was almost SOP to "rake" him again with a short burst, possibly inflicting multiple hits.

In today's world where we use commercial JHP ammo that expands much more reliably than ever before, the differences between the calibers has narrowed considerably. With JHP ammo, the 9mm becomes a viable self-defense round for CQB. I still prefer a larger diameter bullet, but I don't feel undergunned with the 9mm either.

[Evil Monkey]

Please tell me your joking.

They're useless, get over yourself.

[TacticalDefense1911]

If gunnies were able to pick arms for the modern army, we'd still be using the 1911 and m14 and our troops would be as underwhelming as any 3rd world countries.

The M14 is one of the finest military weapons of all time...I hardly doubt our troops would be "as underwhelming as any 3rd world country" while armed with one

[Sparks2112]

The M14 is one of the finest military weapons of all time...I hardly doubt our troops would be "as underwhelming as any 3rd world country" while armed with one.

I had read recently that we were trying to buy back (M-14's) the ones we sold to friendly countries when we switched to the AR platform back in the 60's and 70's. I'll try and find the article if I can.

[White Rice]

Why? Its not like they can't be made cheaper if we needed a few. Its more likely that we would do a "buy back" in order to sell them other stuff to replace it at a profit.

It makes a nice parade rifle, but I wouldn't want to carry it around all day anymore.

If I was going to carry that much weight in rifle and ammo, I'd rather carry a SAW.

[Sparks2112]

It makes a nice parade rifle, but I wouldn't want to carry it around all day anymore.

If I was going to carry that much weight in rifle and ammo, I'd rather carry a SAW.

It's not like they're keeping them stock from the 60's. I hear they're performing quite well in the designated marksman role.

I'd prefer the M240 myself.

[buzz_knox]

The 9mm, 40 cal, and 45 cal, and any other pistol caliber are all useless because weapons like this exist today.

I'm sure the Tavor is nifty keen, but the primary role of a pistol in the military is as a secondary weapon for combatants, as a primary weapon for certain specialists, and as effectively a badge of rank for certain officers. The Tavor will fail at the first (you are carrying an assault rifle as backup to another assault rifle?), likely be overkill for the second (assault rifles don't work that well for MPs and criminal investigators in the ordinary course of their duties), as well as the third (few officers would even consider the weight).

Evil Monkey, do you carry a suppressed SBR or a pistol when going about your daily routine? Perhaps a suppressed AUG SMG variant in a shoulder holster?

[Musketeer]

I have never read any reports, or heard any complaints from soldiers in WW II.

Because generally those who fielded 9mm arms did not field 45 and vice versa. It is not like there was a whole lot of sharing going on. Likewise your average soldier in WWII was far less informed on ballistics and performance of various rounds on soft tissue than the average person concerned with such matters on this board.

In addition it was all ball and ball in 9mm frankly sucks as a reliable stopper. 45 isn't great but 45 will never get smaller!

Lastly, killing was not really the objective. The goal was to take the enemy out of action, hence the whole thing against expanding ammo. Ball goes in and out. It does damage and certainly may kill BUT wounding one man takes two out as one has to care for him.

[Evil Monkey]

but the primary role of a pistol in the military is as a secondary weapon for combatants, as a primary weapon for certain specialists,

That's fine, but we're talking about shoulder fired weapons.

Evil Monkey, do you carry a suppressed SBR or a pistol when going about your daily routine? Perhaps a suppressed AUG SMG variant in a shoulder holster?

No, but I've noticed for a long time now that forces across the world are giving up SMG's for compact rifles.

I gave the Micro Tavor with the suppressor pic as an example of what is replacing the pistol caliber SMG as the primary weapon. These bullpup compact rifles share a similar length, even with a suppressor, with most SMG's yet fire a more potent rifle round such as the 5.56mm.

If SWAT teams do well giving up MP5's for M4's, then compact bullpups are certainly desirable.

[Striker071]

Evil Monkey .... where did you get that quote.... British Soldiers were carrying the Enfield L1A1 in the Faulklands Conflict

[Evil Monkey]

I got the quote from way back before the fall of the modern firearms forums many years ago.

I believe it was either a forum member from Chile or another that was British that had said what was in my signature. It was stated in a thread that was discussing 5.56 vs 7.62.

Those threads are the grand fathers of all "vs" arguments.

[robertbank]

"A British Royal Marine was shot in the abdomen with 7.62mm NATO during the liberation of the Falklands, he carried on fighting shooting the Argentine dead with his M16. "

Nice signature line but the brits were using the FN FAL in .308. The Argentinians ahs the select fire version while the Brits had the semi-auto only version.

The Enfield L1A1 was adopted after the war.

Take Care

Bob

[sgunn911]

I have fired both the mp 40 and thompson .45 in full auto. There is no doubt that the mp-40 had more accuracy and control. I would pick the mp-40 9mm any day over the .45 thompson.

This kind of goes back to the previous post by RickDavis81 that says

Drum brakes all the way around were also fine in WWII but I'd rather have 4 wheel disc now if I have the choice. I have and enjoy a few 9mm's and there isn't anything wrong with them. But there are also better rounds out there now.

A Thompson .45 is a totally different beast than today's models. The Thompson is known for kicking like a mule and was designed for stopping power and a lot of it.

I have been shooting an HK UMP .45 full auto for several years now that also has 9mm parts to switch calibers as needed/wanted. I have shot several thousand rounds of each through the UMP and the difference is noticeable but not overwhelming. Controlling the UMP with .45 rounds is no problem at all, and I can keep a full magazine (25 rounds) on a 10" x 10" target at 25 yards. Possible to repeat that feat further maybe, but I have never tried it. There just isn't a significant advantage of a 9mm over a .45 when talking about controlability and follow up shots in todays more advanced subguns being operated by an experienced shooter. The biggest difference I see is that the .45 requires a bit more concentration and my shoulder may be a bit more sore after 500 rounds of .45 than 9mm.

I was able to shoot a Thompson almost a decade ago, and yeah, that's a totally different argument.

[Re4mer]

Forgive my ignorance, but has there ever been a study done that showed a time when a 9mm actually failed in combat and another caliber would have succeed?

[Swampghost]

Would you like to enter MY house and face a barrage of 9mm.?

It's my favorite round because it's the easiest to control for the size and weight of the pistol plus I get a lot of rounds prior to reloading.

I have bigger and badder plus smaller down to .22 but when nuts comes to bolts in a close encounter I'll take 13 well placed rounds.

[crebralfix]

I have the solution:

2-6 shots to the body, working up toward the head.

3 shots to the head if the body shots didn't work.

Create multiple wound channels and reset the goblin's OODA loop with each hit.

9mm 115 grain FMJ, 45 ACP 230 JHP, 44 Mag...their terminal ballistics all stink because they are shot from a HANDGUN!

Don't buy into the "one shot stop" hype...that's for selling YOU ammo. Focus on what matters, which is skill in shooting, tactics, knifing, hand to hand, threat assessment, awareness, and probably 10 other things I'm forgetting.

[BillCA]

Originally Posted by Re4mer

Forgive my ignorance, but has there ever been a study done that showed a time when a 9mm actually failed in combat and another caliber would have succeed?

And just how would one go about such a study?

Originally Posted by Swampghost

Would you like to enter MY house and face a barrage of 9mm.?

It's my favorite round because it's the easiest to control for the size and weight of the pistol plus I get a lot of rounds prior to reloading.

I have bigger and badder plus smaller down to .22 but when nuts comes to bolts in a close encounter I'll take 13 well placed rounds.

Do you want to face the liability and/or criminal charges for a "barrage" of gunfire? Prosecutors could look at 13 rounds vs. one intruder as panic fire or a wanton disregard for your neighbors.

But if you're talking a barrage, easy to control round and about a dozen well placed rounds, would you like to come in to my house and face 12 well-placed rounds of .32 S&W Long?

Originally Posted by crebralfix

I have the solution:
2-6 shots to the body, working up toward the head.

3 shots to the head if the body shots didn't work.

Create multiple wound channels and reset the goblin's OODA loop with each hit.

9mm 115 grain FMJ, 45 ACP 230 JHP, 44 Mag...their terminal ballistics all stink because they are shot from a HANDGUN!

I'm counting on controlled pairs from this light-recoiling set-up.
Six rounds of .45ACP to COM should get some serious attention.


Like you, if that first six aren't doing the job, I'm changing tactics.
I'll use this one to fight my way to the 12-gauge.

[akr]

The 9 is a great round. Most can put more 9's on the target than anything else.

[Tatsumi67]

As a well known forum member, 9x19 put it "Make mine lean,mean and 9x19!"

9mm is just like every other cartridge ever: It still puts a piece of metal down range extremely fast. Its small, its fast and its very controllable. I think that if everyone who ever back talked on 9mm actually held the cartridge and how "mean" it really looks then they would'nt say anything.

[MaxHeadSpace]

I have two Uzi Mod. 45 -- carbine and micro pistol. They have an option for 45 ACP, but the 9mm provides more capacity, less carry weight for multiple mags.

They're not intended as "rifles" . . . They're intended as carbines, pistols with shoulder stocks, light arms, easy to carry. In 9mm mode they're virtually without recoil and don't "climb" much. Easy to shoot full-auto with one hand.

[mijaboot]

Everything has its limitations, a 20mm will not stop a battleship.
For antipersonel use a 9mm with 147 gr HP and a stiff load is more than sufficient. Shot placement is paramount with any caliber. Remember the Miami shootout years past. The 10mm/40SW was then developed. Shot placement, body armor and a whole host of thing come into play, it doesnt matter what the caliber is. Several rounds to the upper torso or head will slow or generally end the situation.


NRA member 40+ years