Has anyone heard of these powders?

ironhat · July 30, 2011, 11:36 AM

Wideners has been offering 8# jugs of Winchester 867 & 872 powders for several weeks now for $49. This is new powder, not reclaimed from pulled down cartridges, they claim. It states that it is useful for 50 BMG and larger magnum powders. Does anyone have a clue which calibers that would be? Just curious and yes, I have checked Winchester's data and didn't find these two powders.

Later,
Chiz

**Unclenick** · July 30, 2011, 11:54 AM

Widener's has mislabeled them Winchester. Should be WC867 and WC872. Those are OEM numbers from St. Marks Powders. These will be bulk powders, not blended canister grade powders as are normally sold to handloaders. They are probably surplus military. If you want to use one, get enough that you don't run out too soon, because the next time it becomes available (assuming there is a next time) the characteristics will likely be different enough that you have to start your load work up process all over again.

GP100man · July 30, 2011, 12:22 PM

The larger cased & calibered calibers

It`s as slow aburning powder that can still be called powder for "small arms"

The companies produce it in tons & when a batch does`nt met standards it`s moved as surplus , that`s why they vary as Unclenick stated .

Mike / Tx · July 30, 2011, 12:58 PM

They work well in some over bore magnums like the 7mm STW with heavier bullets, as well as some others in that case capacity range.

The thing about them is they need pressure to properly burn, while not exceeding the normal SAMMI pressures there are few calibers until you get up in the RUM case capacity and heavier weight bullets that will burn it complete, that I have seen anyway.

This said, there are many who use these as cheap powders for shooting cast bullets as well. They might not be ideal, but they can produce some decent accuracy for cheap loads. The biggest issue then becomes the clean up as they burn pretty dirty until you get them up into their comfort range.

I have used both, and they are like loading coal. However once you get a fire lit under them they do produce some good shooting.

Let me do a little digging I know I had a sheet somewhere that has calibers and such listed on it where these were used in.

ironhat · July 30, 2011, 01:43 PM

Per Unclenick's post the mistake was mine in as much as Widener's listed them correctly. It was me that made the assumption that WC was Winchester. St. Mark's ?? That's a new one on me.

**Unclenick** · July 30, 2011, 01:57 PM

St. Marks is named after the place the plant is currently located, in St. Marks, Florida. It has had different owners over the years; Winchester, Olin, and currently General Dynamics. They make a lot of military propellants, but are not a retail brand. Winchester and Hodgdon and Alliant all offer some of the powders they make that have been packaged for reloading. None of the retail brands except, I think, the Hodgdon black powder substitutes, are actually made by the company that sells them. The retail brands are bulk purchases from actual powder makers.

There's history, here.

Marco Califo · April 21, 2012, 07:22 PM

I have read somewhere, can't remember where, that W867 and similar (W872) can be loaded in a broad range of small arms cartridges safely, specifically 223 and 308. I cannot attest to this practice's safety personally. Some posters have recommended the hottest possible primers AND a small charge of flake type shotshell powder nearest the primer, then filling the case to capacity with W867.
The results are supposed to be safe, economical and reasonably accurate.

So my question is: is anyone aware of an published data or loading specifics for doing this? Or better yet, is anyone doing this?

Jimro · April 21, 2012, 07:28 PM

You are talking about a "duplex load" and I know of no one doing it with 223 or 308. I'm using WC872 in 6.5x55 and so far have no complaints.

Use AA8700 load data to work with.

Jimro

old roper · April 21, 2012, 07:30 PM

Here is the spec Winchester 867 & 872 powder

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-63-per-pound/

**Unclenick** · April 22, 2012, 11:06 AM

Marc Califo,

If that information Old Roper posted is correct, these powders would be way too slow for .223 and .308. You might well be letting yourself in for secondary muzzle pressure spikes that could ring your barrel. Read starting about half way down this page.

Mike40-11 · April 22, 2012, 06:02 PM

I've been looking at those for awhile. They're so doggone cheap it seems like there HAS to be a way I can make them work...

I dunno though. WC 867 is .50 BMG. That's the 'fast' one. 872 is 20 mm Vulcan powder. It's, ah, pretty slow.

The closest thing to a big bore I have is a .300 winmag. Might be okay for the 867.

Jimro · April 22, 2012, 06:41 PM

I'm wishing I hadn't sold off my 300 win mag, because this would be a great way to light off some 220 gr pills without spending as much on IMR7828 as I did on the bullet. Anyways it seems to be working fine in 6.5x55.

Jimro

bfoosh006 · April 23, 2012, 09:10 PM

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91276

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=139808

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144809

Honestly... doesn't sound like it would be worth it to me.

Marco Califo · April 23, 2012, 09:27 PM

Between yesterday and today Wideners sold out of 844, 867, 872 all three.

bfoosh006 · April 23, 2012, 09:42 PM

JEEZ.... someone is buying up their product and doing the resale .... happened to their IMI 5.56 also....( just my 2 cents..)

Marco Califo · May 5, 2012, 10:26 PM

Pat's and Hi-Tech do have the surplus powders in stock but only Pat's has the
$39 for 8# SLOW powders.

I decided on pulldown 844 and 4895 for $84 and $99.99.

http://www.patsreloading.com
http://hi-techammo.com/

Marco Califo · May 6, 2012, 02:01 PM

Fastest to Slowest
Powder Designation Cartridge
SPI Igniter Artillery
OBP® 126 .50 Cal. Blank M1A1
WC 814 5.56mm Blank M200
WC 818 7.62mm Blank M82
WC 815 60mm Mortar
WC 819 81mm Mortar
WPR® 260 5.56mm SRTA M862
WPR® 270 9mm NATO HPT
WPR® 289 9mm NATO M882
WPR® 293 9mm Subsonic
WC 687 7.62 X 39mm Ball
WC 815 60mm Mortar
WC 816 120mm Mortar Igniter Propellant
WC 864 MACS Igniter
WC 827 7.62mm SLAP M948, SLAP-Tracer M959
SMP® 842 5.56mm Non–toxic
WC 844 5.56mm Ball M193 & M855, Tracer M196
WC 844T 5.56mm Tracer M856
WCR® 845 5.56mm Ball M855, Tracer M856, M995
WC 846 7.62mm Ball M80, Tracer M62
WC 846S 7.62mm Ball M80, Tracer M62
WC 846 + CaCO3 7.62mm Ball M80
WC 750 7.62mm Match M118 & M82
WC 855 30mm AAH TP M788, HEDP M789
WC 856 .50 Cal. SLAP M903, SLAP-Tracer M962
WC 857 .50 Cal. Tracer M17
WC 858 20mm HPT M54
WC 859 20mm Phalanx MK149
WC 860 .50 Cal. Ball M33
WC 860 + CaCO3 .50 Cal. Ball M33
WC 863 120mm Mortar Main Charge
WC 866 20mm PIVAD M940
WC 867 20mm MPC PGU 28/B
WC 868 20mm Improved PGU 28/B
WC 869 25mm M910 TPDS-T
WC 872 20mm TP M55, HEI M56
WC 886 25mm M791 APDS-T
WC 886L 25mm M919
WC 890 25mm HEI-T M792, TP-T M793
WC 891 25mm API PGU 20/U
WC 895 30mm GAU/8A TP PGU15, API PGU14, AIPGU13
SMP® 992 155mm MACS Decoppering

July 30, 2011, 11:36 AM	#1
ironhat Member Join Date: January 12, 2006 Location: South-central PA Posts: 27	Has anyone heard of these powders? Wideners has been offering 8# jugs of Winchester 867 & 872 powders for several weeks now for $49. This is new powder, not reclaimed from pulled down cartridges, they claim. It states that it is useful for 50 BMG and larger magnum powders. Does anyone have a clue which calibers that would be? Just curious and yes, I have checked Winchester's data and didn't find these two powders. Later, Chiz

July 30, 2011, 11:54 AM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Widener's has mislabeled them Winchester. Should be WC867 and WC872. Those are OEM numbers from St. Marks Powders. These will be bulk powders, not blended canister grade powders as are normally sold to handloaders. They are probably surplus military. If you want to use one, get enough that you don't run out too soon, because the next time it becomes available (assuming there is a next time) the characteristics will likely be different enough that you have to start your load work up process all over again. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

July 30, 2011, 12:22 PM	#3
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	The larger cased & calibered calibers It`s as slow aburning powder that can still be called powder for "small arms" The companies produce it in tons & when a batch does`nt met standards it`s moved as surplus , that`s why they vary as Unclenick stated . __________________ GP100man

July 30, 2011, 01:57 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	St. Marks is named after the place the plant is currently located, in St. Marks, Florida. It has had different owners over the years; Winchester, Olin, and currently General Dynamics. They make a lot of military propellants, but are not a retail brand. Winchester and Hodgdon and Alliant all offer some of the powders they make that have been packaged for reloading. None of the retail brands except, I think, the Hodgdon black powder substitutes, are actually made by the company that sells them. The retail brands are bulk purchases from actual powder makers. There's history, here. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 21, 2012, 07:22 PM	#7
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Loading W867 (8# @ $39) with a boost I have read somewhere, can't remember where, that W867 and similar (W872) can be loaded in a broad range of small arms cartridges safely, specifically 223 and 308. I cannot attest to this practice's safety personally. Some posters have recommended the hottest possible primers AND a small charge of flake type shotshell powder nearest the primer, then filling the case to capacity with W867. The results are supposed to be safe, economical and reasonably accurate. So my question is: is anyone aware of an published data or loading specifics for doing this? Or better yet, is anyone doing this? __________________ ............

July 30, 2011, 12:58 PM	#4
Mike / Tx Senior Member Join Date: April 8, 2000 Posts: 2,101	They work well in some over bore magnums like the 7mm STW with heavier bullets, as well as some others in that case capacity range. The thing about them is they need pressure to properly burn, while not exceeding the normal SAMMI pressures there are few calibers until you get up in the RUM case capacity and heavier weight bullets that will burn it complete, that I have seen anyway. This said, there are many who use these as cheap powders for shooting cast bullets as well. They might not be ideal, but they can produce some decent accuracy for cheap loads. The biggest issue then becomes the clean up as they burn pretty dirty until you get them up into their comfort range. I have used both, and they are like loading coal. However once you get a fire lit under them they do produce some good shooting. Let me do a little digging I know I had a sheet somewhere that has calibers and such listed on it where these were used in.

July 30, 2011, 01:43 PM	#5
ironhat Member Join Date: January 12, 2006 Location: South-central PA Posts: 27	Per Unclenick's post the mistake was mine in as much as Widener's listed them correctly. It was me that made the assumption that WC was Winchester. St. Mark's ?? That's a new one on me.

April 21, 2012, 07:28 PM	#8
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	You are talking about a "duplex load" and I know of no one doing it with 223 or 308. I'm using WC872 in 6.5x55 and so far have no complaints. Use AA8700 load data to work with. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

April 21, 2012, 07:30 PM	#9
old roper Senior Member Join Date: June 11, 2007 Posts: 2,155	Here is the spec Winchester 867 & 872 powder http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...-63-per-pound/ __________________ Semper Fi Vietnam 1965 VFW Life member NRA Life Member

April 22, 2012, 11:06 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Marc Califo, If that information Old Roper posted is correct, these powders would be way too slow for .223 and .308. You might well be letting yourself in for secondary muzzle pressure spikes that could ring your barrel. Read starting about half way down this page. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 22, 2012, 06:02 PM	#11
Mike40-11 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2005 Location: Missouri Posts: 842	I've been looking at those for awhile. They're so doggone cheap it seems like there HAS to be a way I can make them work... I dunno though. WC 867 is .50 BMG. That's the 'fast' one. 872 is 20 mm Vulcan powder. It's, ah, pretty slow. The closest thing to a big bore I have is a .300 winmag. Might be okay for the 867.

April 22, 2012, 06:41 PM	#12
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I'm wishing I hadn't sold off my 300 win mag, because this would be a great way to light off some 220 gr pills without spending as much on IMR7828 as I did on the bullet. Anyways it seems to be working fine in 6.5x55. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

April 23, 2012, 09:10 PM	#13
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=91276 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=139808 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=144809 Honestly... doesn't sound like it would be worth it to me. Last edited by bfoosh006; April 23, 2012 at 09:17 PM.

April 23, 2012, 09:27 PM	#14
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Thanks Between yesterday and today Wideners sold out of 844, 867, 872 all three. __________________ ............

April 23, 2012, 09:42 PM	#15
bfoosh006 Senior Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Posts: 1,089	JEEZ.... someone is buying up their product and doing the resale .... happened to their IMI 5.56 also....( just my 2 cents..)

May 5, 2012, 10:26 PM	#16
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	Pat's and Hi-Tech do have the surplus powders Pat's and Hi-Tech do have the surplus powders in stock but only Pat's has the $39 for 8# SLOW powders. I decided on pulldown 844 and 4895 for $84 and $99.99. http://www.patsreloading.com http://hi-techammo.com/ __________________ ............

May 6, 2012, 02:01 PM	#17
Marco Califo Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2011 Location: LA (Greater Los Angeles Area) Posts: 2,598	St. Mark's Ball Powders and their military cartridges Fastest to Slowest Powder Designation Cartridge SPI Igniter Artillery OBP® 126 .50 Cal. Blank M1A1 WC 814 5.56mm Blank M200 WC 818 7.62mm Blank M82 WC 815 60mm Mortar WC 819 81mm Mortar WPR® 260 5.56mm SRTA M862 WPR® 270 9mm NATO HPT WPR® 289 9mm NATO M882 WPR® 293 9mm Subsonic WC 687 7.62 X 39mm Ball WC 815 60mm Mortar WC 816 120mm Mortar Igniter Propellant WC 864 MACS Igniter WC 827 7.62mm SLAP M948, SLAP-Tracer M959 SMP® 842 5.56mm Non–toxic WC 844 5.56mm Ball M193 & M855, Tracer M196 WC 844T 5.56mm Tracer M856 WCR® 845 5.56mm Ball M855, Tracer M856, M995 WC 846 7.62mm Ball M80, Tracer M62 WC 846S 7.62mm Ball M80, Tracer M62 WC 846 + CaCO3 7.62mm Ball M80 WC 750 7.62mm Match M118 & M82 WC 855 30mm AAH TP M788, HEDP M789 WC 856 .50 Cal. SLAP M903, SLAP-Tracer M962 WC 857 .50 Cal. Tracer M17 WC 858 20mm HPT M54 WC 859 20mm Phalanx MK149 WC 860 .50 Cal. Ball M33 WC 860 + CaCO3 .50 Cal. Ball M33 WC 863 120mm Mortar Main Charge WC 866 20mm PIVAD M940 WC 867 20mm MPC PGU 28/B WC 868 20mm Improved PGU 28/B WC 869 25mm M910 TPDS-T WC 872 20mm TP M55, HEI M56 WC 886 25mm M791 APDS-T WC 886L 25mm M919 WC 890 25mm HEI-T M792, TP-T M793 WC 891 25mm API PGU 20/U WC 895 30mm GAU/8A TP PGU15, API PGU14, AIPGU13 SMP® 992 155mm MACS Decoppering __________________ ............