Michigan CCW Law=stupid - Page 2

ninjatoth · July 6, 2009, 06:34 PM

I'm not 100% sure I should still be getting them.I had a doctor diognose me with schitzophrenia years ago,but after feeling something isnt right,I went to another doctor who ruled that out alltogether,but said I have ocd.I did a written review being specific to my daily habits and sent it into the SSA,and they just kept my benefits.I'm sure they would try to cut me if I said I feel fine and it's only ocd.But they haven't made a move,and we aint rich over here,so i'm not going to bring it up

RDak · July 6, 2009, 06:47 PM

"Schitzophrenia"..........!!!

Now, that is different isn't it? Glad you got that one removed. (However, you are still receivinig SSA? )

Without a statement indicating you are better now, and getting off of SSA for schitzophrenia, I don't think you have a chance based on my readings of the statute.

But you should give Jim Simmons a call on this one IMHO.

ETA: I would guess Jim would say if you are receiving SSA for schitzophrenia you are ineligible for a CPL.

ninjatoth · July 6, 2009, 07:50 PM

when I was 16,my doctor diagnosed me with schitzophrenia,then when I was 19,he urged me to get SSI benefits.I never really researched schitzophrenia to know I didn't have it,but suffered for years with OCD and took my doctors' word that I had schitzophrenia.Then 12 years after my diagnosis,I find out by a better doctor that all I have is OCD and some anxiety problems,he medicated me for it and I feel better.I just haven't got around to tell the government to stop paying me,it's kind of hard to do,especially when all i had to take was a questionairre and make a statement of how I felt,and they kept me on.But,my point is,OCD is not a dementia type illness,it is an anxiety issue,and that in the end shouldn't stop me from getting a carry permit if i'm determined enough

pendennis · July 7, 2009, 08:13 AM

Quote:

pendennis,do you think it is worth pursuing?I am just concerned about question 16 of the app. I would have to truthfull check yes to mental illness wouldn't I?I'm not sure I would feel right checking no,unless legally i'm not mentally ill.I've never been ordered by the law to be checked out,exept for a child custody case where I was ordered to be evaluated,which I never did because another custody settlement was arranged before I had to go,so I never went.Iv'e never been committed,and why would I,it's only OCD.I don't absolutely have to get a cpl ccw or whatever it is called,but just feeling like I can't upsets me,and especially because the law let me buy the guns,and I feel like the law is keeping me from using them to protect myself

Sam, I'm not a lawyer, and I do not dispense legal advice of any type. With that stated, the Michigan Compiled Acts has an entire section on mental health laws. In part, it says:

"(g) "Mental illness" means a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life."

Here's the link. You should read the entire passage.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(rj2...e=mcl-330-1400

csmsss · July 7, 2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

I just haven't got around to tell the government to stop paying me,it's kind of hard to do,especially when all i had to take was a questionairre and make a statement of how I felt,and they kept me on.

Well, hey, thanks for defrauding me and everyone else who pays his/her taxes just so you can take monies from us you aren't entitled to. Thanks a lot!

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 08:36 AM

My doctor says OCD is dibilitating just like worse mental illnesses,so my disibility claim isn't fraud,But I think its going overboard to say I shouldnt be able to carry,when My illness isnt dementia related.Its the same to me as if they said someone in a wheelchair cant carry either.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

"(g) "Mental illness" means a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life."

I have no problem with recognizing reality,or impaired judgement,my behavior is a little off in a good way and the ordinary demands of life are harder,but I don't see why that would impair me from carrying.I have a family and little one to protect just like the rest of us

Evan Thomas · July 7, 2009, 12:52 PM

Sorry, Ninjatoth, but if you're currently receiving SSA disability benefits, I'd say that changes things quite a bit... if you're currently impaired enough to need them, I'd think that might well be a significant enough level of impairment to disqualify you from getting a permit to carry. (But -- I'll say it again -- it's a question for a lawyer.)

If you're not impaired enough to need them any more, i.e. you're able to hold a job, then you need to think about getting one, and letting the SSA know that. Continuing to receive a benefit you no longer need makes you look a bit, um, ethically challenged, not to mention any possible illegality in terms of fraud and such; if your goal in this thread is to get sympathy from the membership, I think there may not be much more to be had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjatoth

Its the same to me as if they said someone in a wheelchair cant carry either.

Bad analogy. The issue isn't disability as such, it's whether the specific type of disability creates an unacceptable level of risk. If someone who uses a wheelchair can meet the physical requirements for handling a gun safely, there's no additional risk. Unfortunately, risk is harder to measure when one is dealing with someone's mental or emotional state, which is why the law errs on the side of caution in that case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjatoth

Quote:
"(g) "Mental illness" means a substantial disorder of thought or mood that significantly impairs judgment, behavior, capacity to recognize reality, or ability to cope with the ordinary demands of life."

Holding a job is one of the ordinary demands of life, pretty much, and if your OCD keeps you from holding one, then... yeah... that seems to fit the definition of mental illness you just quoted.

I think the technical term for what you're trying to do here is "eating your cake and having it." So sorry, but you probably can't have it both ways.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Sorry, Ninjatoth, but if you're currently receiving SSA disability benefits, I'd say that changes things quite a bit... if you're currently impaired enough to need them, I'd think that might well be a significant enough level of impairment to disqualify you from getting a permit to carry. (But -- I'll say it again -- it's a question for a lawyer.)

you are a perfect example of the stereotyping that I explained earlier.So,anyone with a physical disability should not carry guns ever?All physical disability is exactly the same right?If you say no,then you contradict everything.Because all mental illness is not the same either!But the government makes no distinction,just ALL.I want a CCW class which is a huge part safety class,but i'm not allowed,even though i'm allowed the right to purchase the gun.What sense does that make?

RDak · July 7, 2009, 01:29 PM

Ninja, you have to call Jim Simmons and maybe pay for his advice. Give him a call for pete's sake.

Your lack of doing so indicates to me........... well I'm just joking........well not entirely.........

Evan Thomas · July 7, 2009, 01:35 PM

Ninjatoth, you haven't bothered to read my post above very carefully, or you'd have seen, first, that I took some trouble to differentiate types of disability:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanya

The issue isn't disability as such, it's whether the specific type of disability creates an unacceptable level of risk.

And second, you might have noticed that I expressed no personal opinion about whether you should or shouldn't be able to get a permit to carry based on your particular diagnosis. I said that if you're disabled enough to need SSA benefits (unable to hold a job), that seemed to fit the definition of a disqualifying mental illness which you quoted. I also said that if you're not that disabled, it's ethically and legally questionable to continue to receive benefits, and that people's sympathy for your situation might be limited if that's the case.

And now I've said those things again, and have nothing to add but to wish you well and hope that you will get legal advice, from an actual lawyer, about your case.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 01:37 PM

who is jim simmons?No matter how upset I seem to be,I really don't think there is a way around michigan concealed permit Q#16.You must answer all the questions with a no to be eligible,even if I wasn't on disability,I am still ineligible if I am being honest.I don't want to get it by lying.I will have to live without until the laws change,which will probably be never

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 01:41 PM

I guess I just don't understand what you are saying.If someone,for any reason can't hold a job,that they can't possibly be able to get a concealed pistol permit,right?I guess the wheelchair analogy is right then,unless you are confessing to having stereotypes about mental illness

RDak · July 7, 2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

who is jim simmons?No matter how upset I seem to be,I really don't think there is a way around michigan concealed permit Q#16.You must answer all the questions with a no to be eligible,even if I wasn't on disability,I am still ineligible if I am being honest.I don't want to get it by lying.I will have to live without until the laws change,which will probably be never

Go to post number 15 in this thread.

Here's his contact info.:

Jim Simmons
Law Offices of James T. Simmons, P.C.
45700 Village Boulevard
Shelby Township, Michigan, 48315
(586) 566-1900
(586) 532-4110 fax
[email protected]

djohn · July 7, 2009, 02:10 PM

I know quite a few people that wash there hands very often.It is suggested by my physician and my childrens pediatrician.I guess one could go overboard but whats the harm other then dish pan hands and IMO it's flat out wrong and a crock of S**t.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 02:12 PM

thanks RDak,I probably won't pursue it too much,it's more trouble than its worth for me personally.I don't have an immediate need to carry,it is more of an issue of convienience.Now if i want to go to a gunshow and possibly find a deal,I have to go to the police station every single time and get a new purchase permit every single time,and if someone says "hey try my gun out" I have to feel embarrassed and say,"no,I can't,I can only touch my guns legally"I'm fairly satisfied with things the way they are,I just get mad when someone says you can't do something,like what the laws are telling me

Glenn E. Meyer · July 7, 2009, 02:44 PM

This is a law which seems to be wanting a constitutional test. Several different types of organizations may be interested in such.

I would suggest the ACLU and American Psychological Association. While you may think they are antigun - they are concerned with the rights of folks who have psychiatric or psychological issues. The NRA may be interested. They have worked with the ACLU to deal with civil rights issues.

You do really need to a lawyer competent to analyze both the RKBA and mental health issues. The hints here may be of use to use.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 03:22 PM

Quote:

This is a law which seems to be wanting a constitutional test

I hope I see that day.And for those here that think the "mentally ill" shouldn't get CCW's,I respectfully understand why you feel that way.But mental illness really for the most part,doesn't impair a person from using a firearm safely and respecting the laws like every other american.Being impaired,physically or mentally to the point of not being able to works a full 8 hours a day has absolutely nothing to do with safe and responsible weapons handling and carrying.Just as I have had my driver's license for 13 years now,with not harldey a ticket on my record,I should also have the right to achieve my CCW permit.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 7, 2009, 03:40 PM

Thus, you need to consult appropriate people to resolve this. It will take work on your part if you want to pursue it.

The issue will be proving that a mental health issue is not predictive of a danger to the community. You need expert advice. We really can't support you individually being platitudes

It is an empirical question whether an individual is a risk because of a mental health issue and how MI determines such is going to need evaluation by appropriate experts as I mentioned.

alloy · July 7, 2009, 05:43 PM

Quote:

My doctor says OCD is dibilitating just like worse mental illnesses,so my disibility claim isn't fraud.

It seems to be one or the other, I can't see much empathy(I like that word lately). If it's bad enough to be compared to the worst mental illness, and bad enough to not hold a job, it doesn't make sense to give you a permit does it?

I mean which part of hammering roofing nails or lifting warehouse boxes, is severely affected by OCD?
Count me...among the non-understanding, not trying to be sarcastic but it's a tough one to wrap my head around.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

It seems to be one or the other, I can't see much empathy(I like that word lately). If it's bad enough to be compared to the worst mental illness, and bad enough to not hold a job, it doesn't make sense to give you a permit does it?

Ok,back to square one,and you are another judgmental person twords mental illness,Let me ask you one question.What does one thing have to do with another!?A disability of any kind,mental or physical has NOTHING to do with mental compentensy,or the right to hold a permit of ANY kind that is offered to the public.Maybe my rights should be taken away right?Because I have a disability?Maybe I shouldn't have a drivers license either huh?Or maybe if you have a heart codition,bad back,earach or toothach you shouldn't be allowed a permit either.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 06:04 PM

I bugs me that the public(and the government) group all the mentally ill into one catergory.only a very tiny percentage of the "mentally ill" would have any issues with owning a gun.That would be like me saying that ALL people who have ANY type of phisical illness are going to have seizures,so don't give them a gun.

maestro pistolero · July 7, 2009, 06:11 PM

Isn't schitzophrenia a bowel disorder? I don't think a schizophrenic should have a gun, but I see no problem with a schitzophrenic, just don't let anyone see it below the stall when you're having an unexpected flair-up.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

ninjatoth · July 7, 2009, 06:18 PM

Quote:

How were you able to get disability benefits for this so-called minor mental affliction?

long story short.My first psychiatrist mis diagnosed me with something more severe than OCD,then,went to a better doctor who diagnosed me with OCD,and when I did a review with the SSA,they just kept my benefits going for whatever reason.I am a stay at home dad anyway with a toddler and a wife working full time and going to school,It makes no sense to send her off to daycare and struggle with OCD at a job

alloy · July 7, 2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

and you are another judgmental person twords mental illness

I don't feel judgemental.

But the folks that sign off on permits might be...which was really my point.
Good luck!

July 6, 2009, 06:47 PM	#27
RDak Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 734	"Schitzophrenia"..........!!! Now, that is different isn't it? Glad you got that one removed. (However, you are still receivinig SSA? ) Without a statement indicating you are better now, and getting off of SSA for schitzophrenia, I don't think you have a chance based on my readings of the statute. But you should give Jim Simmons a call on this one IMHO. ETA: I would guess Jim would say if you are receiving SSA for schitzophrenia you are ineligible for a CPL. Last edited by RDak; July 6, 2009 at 07:14 PM.

July 7, 2009, 02:10 PM	#40
djohn Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2009 Location: CT Posts: 507	I know quite a few people that wash there hands very often.It is suggested by my physician and my childrens pediatrician.I guess one could go overboard but whats the harm other then dish pan hands and IMO it's flat out wrong and a crock of S**t. __________________ Dave.

July 7, 2009, 02:44 PM	#42
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	This is a law which seems to be wanting a constitutional test. Several different types of organizations may be interested in such. I would suggest the ACLU and American Psychological Association. While you may think they are antigun - they are concerned with the rights of folks who have psychiatric or psychological issues. The NRA may be interested. They have worked with the ACLU to deal with civil rights issues. You do really need to a lawyer competent to analyze both the RKBA and mental health issues. The hints here may be of use to use. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 7, 2009, 03:40 PM	#44
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Thus, you need to consult appropriate people to resolve this. It will take work on your part if you want to pursue it. The issue will be proving that a mental health issue is not predictive of a danger to the community. You need expert advice. We really can't support you individually being platitudes It is an empirical question whether an individual is a risk because of a mental health issue and how MI determines such is going to need evaluation by appropriate experts as I mentioned. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

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July 6, 2009, 06:34 PM	#26
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	I'm not 100% sure I should still be getting them.I had a doctor diognose me with schitzophrenia years ago,but after feeling something isnt right,I went to another doctor who ruled that out alltogether,but said I have ocd.I did a written review being specific to my daily habits and sent it into the SSA,and they just kept my benefits.I'm sure they would try to cut me if I said I feel fine and it's only ocd.But they haven't made a move,and we aint rich over here,so i'm not going to bring it up

July 6, 2009, 07:50 PM	#28
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	when I was 16,my doctor diagnosed me with schitzophrenia,then when I was 19,he urged me to get SSI benefits.I never really researched schitzophrenia to know I didn't have it,but suffered for years with OCD and took my doctors' word that I had schitzophrenia.Then 12 years after my diagnosis,I find out by a better doctor that all I have is OCD and some anxiety problems,he medicated me for it and I feel better.I just haven't got around to tell the government to stop paying me,it's kind of hard to do,especially when all i had to take was a questionairre and make a statement of how I felt,and they kept me on.But,my point is,OCD is not a dementia type illness,it is an anxiety issue,and that in the end shouldn't stop me from getting a carry permit if i'm determined enough

July 7, 2009, 08:36 AM	#31
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	My doctor says OCD is dibilitating just like worse mental illnesses,so my disibility claim isn't fraud,But I think its going overboard to say I shouldnt be able to carry,when My illness isnt dementia related.Its the same to me as if they said someone in a wheelchair cant carry either.

July 7, 2009, 01:29 PM	#35
RDak Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Michigan Posts: 734	Ninja, you have to call Jim Simmons and maybe pay for his advice. Give him a call for pete's sake. Your lack of doing so indicates to me........... well I'm just joking........well not entirely.........

July 7, 2009, 01:37 PM	#37
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	who is jim simmons?No matter how upset I seem to be,I really don't think there is a way around michigan concealed permit Q#16.You must answer all the questions with a no to be eligible,even if I wasn't on disability,I am still ineligible if I am being honest.I don't want to get it by lying.I will have to live without until the laws change,which will probably be never

July 7, 2009, 01:41 PM	#38
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	I guess I just don't understand what you are saying.If someone,for any reason can't hold a job,that they can't possibly be able to get a concealed pistol permit,right?I guess the wheelchair analogy is right then,unless you are confessing to having stereotypes about mental illness

July 7, 2009, 02:12 PM	#41
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	thanks RDak,I probably won't pursue it too much,it's more trouble than its worth for me personally.I don't have an immediate need to carry,it is more of an issue of convienience.Now if i want to go to a gunshow and possibly find a deal,I have to go to the police station every single time and get a new purchase permit every single time,and if someone says "hey try my gun out" I have to feel embarrassed and say,"no,I can't,I can only touch my guns legally"I'm fairly satisfied with things the way they are,I just get mad when someone says you can't do something,like what the laws are telling me

July 7, 2009, 06:04 PM	#47
ninjatoth Junior member Join Date: March 21, 2009 Location: sanford,mi Posts: 590	I bugs me that the public(and the government) group all the mentally ill into one catergory.only a very tiny percentage of the "mentally ill" would have any issues with owning a gun.That would be like me saying that ALL people who have ANY type of phisical illness are going to have seizures,so don't give them a gun.

July 7, 2009, 06:11 PM	#48
maestro pistolero Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2007 Posts: 2,153	Isn't schitzophrenia a bowel disorder? I don't think a schizophrenic should have a gun, but I see no problem with a schitzophrenic, just don't let anyone see it below the stall when you're having an unexpected flair-up. Sorry, I couldn't resist.