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November 22, 2012, 11:04 PM | #51 | |
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re:
Quote:
No. If the aftermarket trigger's bow length differs from the OEM trigger, the trigger bar lever and the plunger lever won't be in the same position when the trigger is pulled, and there's no way of knowing until the trigger is installed and the firing pin release timing is checked. And... It can go either way, depending on the new trigger's specs. It can just as easily correct a slow timing issue as cause one.
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November 23, 2012, 07:33 AM | #52 |
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That goes straight to the heart of the interchangeability issue. Colt and probably all others have proprietary specs so after market replacements can go either way that is if they fit at all.It would be interesting to know though how trigger dimensions are different in this case,a plastic trigger would be a good candidate for permanent removal.
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November 23, 2012, 07:42 AM | #53 | |
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re:
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Sometimes tolerances stack in our favor, and sometimes they stack up against us. All parts involved can be individually within spec, but the stacking can result in the group being slightly out of spec. This is why you find the odd Series 80 system that's a little slow on the uptake...and why Colt produces different plunger levers to compensate when it's discovered. The majority work just fine.
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November 23, 2012, 09:40 AM | #54 |
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Drake Oldham's M1911 drop testing:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads...2823#Post92823 I will agree that the series 80 firing pin block will prevent the firing pin from reaching the primer, unless the trigger is pulled. It will prevent "slamfires". Mechanisms with free floating firing pins are susceptible to slamfires anytime the firing pin makes contact with a primer. However, the series 80 firing pin block has its own issues. Yes it is “safer” in terms of slamfires, but it will cause failure to fire malfunctions. I have had the plunger drop down in my series 80 Colt. It has only happened once to me in tens of thousands of rounds fired, but it happened to me. The plunger was down as the slide went forward which stopped the slide and prevented it from going into battery. I had to drop the magazine, clear the weapon, pull the slide back (to figure out what was going on for one thing!!) and once I determined that the plunger had dropped down, I fiddled with the mechanism to get it to go back up in the slide. This is a malfunction that won’t be cleared by a rack and tap. The series 80 mechanism is an afterthought, unlike later mechanisms which were part of the design process, and it is not something I want in a self defense pistol. It is fine for a paper punching pistol.
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November 23, 2012, 09:53 AM | #55 | |
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Slammin'
Quote:
While technically true, the spring-loaded inertial firing pin doesn't really offer much chance of that happening unless the hammer is held at full-cock for an instant, and then jars off as the slide goes home, and even that requires that there's a problem with the sear reset. If the sear resets the way it's supposed to, the half-cock will grab it and arrest the hammer. Look at the M1 and M14 rifles. The firing pin isn't an inertial type, and there's no spring to oppose it. Eject a fresh round that's chambered during normal cycling, and you'll see a tiny dent from the firing pin every time...yet they don't slam fire on any sort of consistent basis...even with soft commercial primers. On the Series 80 system...when the gun chambers a round during normal cycling...the trigger is pulled during the cycle, allowing the firing pin to move forward freely...yet we don't get burst-fire unless something else is wrong with the fire control group...neither in a Series 80 nor in a pre-Series 80 pistol.
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If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; November 23, 2012 at 09:59 AM. |
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November 23, 2012, 10:17 AM | #56 | |
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And to continue
Quote:
I've seen firing pin stops fall out of position, stop on the hammer, and tie pistols up. I've seen them fall completely out onto the ground and bean the shooter with the firing pin and spring. Anything that can happen eventually will happen to somebody. We don't give much weight to what happens once or even occasionally. We look for trends rather than the rare occurrence.
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November 23, 2012, 12:56 PM | #57 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
I have also not experienced a broken firing pin, a broken firing pin spring, a broken extractor, or a broken sear. All of these, too, may occur and IF they occur may result in a failure to fire (or to cycle), but it would certainly be a stretch to say that I shouldn't have a firing pin in my pistol because it might break and cause a failure. |
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November 23, 2012, 01:30 PM | #58 | |
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Quote:
All to reduce the weight and kinetic energy of the rebounding firing pin. Notice how many rounds the guy with this Tavor fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k If these rifles slamfired once per magazine things would be really bad, if that is your point about consistent slamfires. Have one slamfire and you won't want to have another. That will be one per lifetime.
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If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading. Last edited by Slamfire; November 23, 2012 at 01:41 PM. |
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November 23, 2012, 01:34 PM | #59 | |
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re:
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I've shot both rifles extensively, and I've never had a slam-fire. I've experienced the occasional double when squeezing the trigger slowly...very slowly...and I learned to make it happen almost on demand. What was actually occurring was a bump fire. I was pulling the trigger twice without realizing it. The intertial type with the pin being shorter than its channel and spring loaded doesn't present the same problem. If the pistol slam fires, there are other issues within the fire control group. I stand by my statement.
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November 23, 2012, 01:47 PM | #60 | |||
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Quote:
The FAL has a spring loaded free floating firing pin http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...05910&posted=1 Quote:
This guy had an out of battery slamfire with the FN 49 mechanism. My recollection it has the same spring loaded, free floating firing pin of the FAL. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=444364 Quote:
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November 23, 2012, 02:04 PM | #61 | |
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re:
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But we don't. As for the reported slam-fires with the Garand/M14 design, I have to wonder. We hear of accidental shootings among police officers...with and without injury...being "explained" away as a weapon malfunction when it was actually operator error. As I mentioned earlier, I'm sort of a mad scientist. When I hear of things like this...if it doesn't seem to make sense...I don't automatically take anybody's word for it. I work to try and duplicate it, and I work hard at it...even stacking the deck to give it the best chance. I once tried to get a 1911 to slam fire without the hammer tripping by removing the FP spring and extractor...loading a round into the chamber...and releasing the slide with the slidestop. After about 50 strikes, I gave up. It never happened. So, how many of these things that are reported as slam-fire malfunctions are actually CYA for the brass? I have to wonder.
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November 23, 2012, 02:22 PM | #62 |
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I don't know what we are debating.
I have had one slamfire in a AR15, witnessed one, I had three slamfires in M1 Garands, two out of battery, all with Federal Match primers. One gentleman I shoot with had two in battery slamfires in his AR15's with Federal primers and decided to change primers. If you shoot highpower rifle you will either see or meet people who had, or have seen slamfires. Primer sensitivity varies by primer composition and by technology. Federal primers use normal lead styphnate and federals are well known to be more sensitivity than other brands. The sensitivity of military primer compositions are "matched" to the characteristics of the weapons they are used in. To a point. The designers of the Garand could not make the 30-06 primer less sensitive because that cartridge was used in a number of other weapons and duding the primer would cause misfires in those other mechanisms. The 30 Carbine was the first of its type and its firing pin is round and solid, like the original round Garand firing pin and it turns out the 30 Carbine primer had the highest drop distance of any US military primer. It may take a lot of weapons and rounds out there before the slamfire potential of a mechanism becomes apparent. This was obviously true of the Garand and it was true of the AR15. Both the Garand and the AR15 went through troop trials, design tests, before it became obvious that the mechanisms would slamfire. For both systems the Army lightened the firing pins and for the AR15, made the #41 primer less sensitive than the commercial primers the cartridge had been loaded to that date. It turned out that the less sensitive primer caused misfires in Stoner’s later weapon designs as the later Stoner modular weapon system mechanism did not have as much ignition energy as his AR15. Most embarrassing for Stoner.
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November 23, 2012, 04:34 PM | #63 | ||
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re:
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Yeah. Federal primers present a special problem with gas rifles. I won't even use'em in an auto feed tube. Quote:
But this is about 1911 pistols. I only used the M1/M14 analogy to show that if those only slam fire rarely...and usually only with soft primers...then a spring loaded inertial firing pin isn't a concern...Series 80 or not. Another one of my favorite myths to debunk with the 1911 is the out of battery kaboom...but that's meat for another debate.
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November 23, 2012, 05:19 PM | #64 |
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Not surprisingly I seem to be living in the past,which was about a certain safety
device in some M1911 pistols.The ghost of tolerance stack came up,dear unto my heart it is,within a plastic trigger replacement issue (don't those people ship plastic main spring housings too?) anyway the critical dimension here is the length from the back of the pad to the leading edge of the bow but this can be skewed by different shapes of pad so the bottom line is anything goes as long as it works,I get it now. |
November 24, 2012, 11:28 AM | #65 | ||
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Quote:
For the one I witnessed, the shooter was shooting standing and the same thing happened. He was using federal primers and I got to talk with him this year, and he had another standing stage with federals and that was the last he used federals in his AR15. My Garand slamfires, first one sitting rapid fire, last round in the 8 round clip slamfired out of battery. Federal primers. Second one, standing stage, put a round in the SLED, pulled on the operating rod, the round slamfired in battery, federal match primer. Third one, firing from bench sighting a new match Garand from the clip, the rifle slamfired out of battery. Federal match primers. All of my 30-06 were from the same 5000 primer lot of federal match primers, that lot may have been particularly sensitive, or I was just unlucky. I am still using the trigger mechanisms of from the Garands that slamfired. They are mechanically correct and do not follow. I have never bump fired a rifle. I have been shooting semiautos for decades now, I shoot with the rifle firmly in the shoulder. When shooting from position I have a tight sling. I have collected lots of slamfire accounts, they happen in rifles. The most slamfiring rifle on the market is the Garand. M1a slamfires are rare, probably due to the lesser number. Foreign rifles with heavy firing pin have an unusually high number of slamfire accounts considering the low numbers of them out there. You will never hear of a firing pin initated out of battery slamfire in a roller bolt, and I will bet you will never hear of a firing pin initated slamfire in battery either. The firing pin assembly does not move forward till the lugs are extended and the firing pin spring is very strong. It is so strong that I had to take it off to get the firing pin assembly to go forward for this picture. AR15 slamfires were frequent enough that the NRA forbid loading on the shooting stool. And I know why. When you had a M1a you could load on the stool because slamfires did not happen on the stool due to rifle orientation and magazine friction. When shooting standing it was common practice, while at port arms, to press a round in the magazine then rest the rifle, butt down, bolt open on the stool, while your target was being scored. Sometimes you would see guys hit the bolt release on the stool as they brought the rifle back to port arms prior to cheeking the rifle. With the muzzle up, gravity was working against the bolt and the bolt was slowed by magazine friction. However, you cannot press a round in the magazine of an AR through the ejection port. Instead, I saw AR shooters put the muzzle of their rifle on the stool, drop a round through the port into the chamber, hit the bolt release, then bring the rifle up. Gravity was working with the bolt and increased the kinetic energy of the firing pin. Enough highpower shooters had slamfires through their stool, blowing metal fragments and dirt all over everyone around them, that this practice was forbidden.
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November 24, 2012, 11:42 AM | #66 |
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Slammin'
Wow.
We never used to have problems like that. We didn't use AR-15 rifles in those days, though. Maybe it was the CCI primers and the GI ball ammunition we shot on the 200-yard stage. Anyway...back to the slam-firing 1911 question.
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November 24, 2012, 02:10 PM | #67 | ||
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A good reason your ball ammunition did not have slamfires is due to the work in the early 60's by the military to use less sensitive primers and lighten the firing pin. This is a matter of record:
APPENDIX 4 REPORT OF THE M16 RIFLE REVIEW PANEL http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA953114 Quote:
Primers are not as predictable as we want. Any time there is incidental contact with a primer there is a very small probability, a very very small probability, but finite, that the thing will ignite. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...232052308.html Quote:
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November 24, 2012, 03:57 PM | #68 |
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re:
I remember seeing the heavy M16 firing pins, but never in any issue rifles. I quit shooting High Power competition before they came onto the scene, and in those days, we used the free ball ammo for 200 yards, and saved the M118 Lake City stuff for 300 and 600 yards. Then, the trend was to pull the 173 grain bullets and reload the cases with Sierra Matchkings and the same powder charge. We shot the M14s with the selector lock silver-soldered in. On loan, we had to give'em up if we pulled out. Mine was a Winchester. Damn good rifle.
I started reloading the LC Match brass with the Matchkings and 42.5 grains IMR 4895 and CCI primers...because we understood from the light primer dents what could happen with more touchy primers. Shortly after that, my eyes started to go south and I gave it up...around 1983. Too much time and money spent just to burn up ammo. I stayed in it at a local club for a time. With only 200 yards available, I figured I could make a decent showing with a Garand and the giveaway ammo...and we got to keep the clips. If the new shooters are getting slam fires that often, it might be time to reconsider their choice of primers. Any slight advantage with soft primers ain't worth the risk. I know that I'd much rather shoot Maggie's Bloomers all day than hurt anybody. Unless they've stopped production, CCI markets tougher Mil-Spec primers expressly for the slam-bang gas rifles.
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November 24, 2012, 04:24 PM | #69 |
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I must be lost. I could have sworn the title of this thread was "colt 1911 series 80 firing pin safety reliabillity?"
There's no better way to prove you've lost the debate than to take it completely off-topic. Just sayin' ... |
November 24, 2012, 05:16 PM | #70 |
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Where is a mod when you need one. LOL This thread is so far off topic.
In my experience the Colts 80 series firing pin safety is a solid design and is reliable. Does that mean it cannot fail? NO but is is likely to? NO! I have guns which have the 80 series parts and some that do not. I trust all of them to go bang when I need them to. YMMV.
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November 24, 2012, 06:30 PM | #71 |
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OT
Whoops.
Yeah. These things sometimes take on a life of their own. But, what the hey. The original question was answered 3-4 times...
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November 24, 2012, 08:43 PM | #72 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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November 24, 2012, 09:20 PM | #73 |
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This thread is a continuous learning experience,so far I'm not carrying bullets in my purse,definitely not buying one of of those self discharging rifles and the series 80 firing pin block?nobody cares any more.CCI primers are the cat's meow
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November 26, 2012, 10:04 AM | #74 | |
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Quote:
All I really want to do is get rid of the plastic trigger and still maintain the current pull, safety, and reliability the gun has now.
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November 26, 2012, 10:40 AM | #75 | |
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