Report of Worn Holster causing AD

[Seaman]

Ahoy FTG-05

Below is link to Midways listing (if I did it right), with user reviews.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...sting-_-247176

Glock also produced frame safetys for special orders to a few countries, the Glock 17S, tho these are rare.

[Don P]

I finally looked at the photo. This falls right on the owner. We had a saying when I was much younger and it is, when you're dumb you suffer. I will classify this as a negligent discharge. The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.

[BlueTrain]

Some of the pre-Model 1911 .45 automatics did not have thumb safeties, though they did have grip safeties. Supposedly some of the holsters made form them had a feature to help prevent the grip safety from being depressed, the same way the later holster for the .45 had a little bump (for want of a better word) to prevent the magazine release from being depressed while the pistol was being carried in the holster. If that wasn't enough, some of the early magazines even had a lanyard ring.

I finally realized that under some situations, a gun will want to slip out of the holster. The old S&W Model 3913LS was rather bad for that because of the tapered frame. So in my case, I've decided that a thumbsnap type of strap maybe isn't such a bad idea. Now if I could just keep the leather from squeaking. I mentioned the thing about the slide being pushed back upon reholstering. If you thought that carrying chamber empty would be a good idea (but let's not re-open that issue otherwise) because of the reason as described as the subject of this thread, then it would be possible to chamber a round without your being aware of it, thereby creating an unsafe situation. Of course, it would have to be pushed back quite a bit and if you already had a round chambered (like this Glock), then I don't know what would happen.

[dalegribble]

so is this really a holster issue or a gun issue? could you reasonably expect the same results with say a 1911? i have read over time other ad's with glocks and always there seems to have been some outside force that "caused" the ad and "not" the guns fault.

[209Man]

Nice to know, being new to handguns, I would have never thought of this.

[FTG-05]

Seaman,

Thanks, I had no idea that aftermarket safeties for Glock existed. I knew about the very limited Glock versions, but not the aftermarket ones.

Too bad it's $75 each, that seems a bit high. Plus it's not clear how hard it is to install it. Looks likes some drilling is necessary.

Thanks,

[Kreyzhorse]

A good lesson, regardless of what you carry, that if your equipment is worn out, replace it.

[TailGator]

I can't blame the gun. Using a decent holster is just as basic for a Glock as using the thumb safety is for a 1911. There are several semis besides Glocks that lack thumb safeties, as do all revolvers of which I am aware, and that holster would have been a risk for any of them.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by Don P

I will classify this as a negligent discharge. The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.

Exactly. Another saying that comes to mind here is "penny-wise and pound-foolish." The OP was very lucky that neither he nor anyone else was seriously injured, or worse.

If you don't replace equipment that you know to be in an unsafe condition -- you're negligent.

[Wildalaska]

How do you figure? If you inserted a DA revolver INCORRECTLY and IRRESPONSIBLY into a holster as this fella did, it could pull back the trigger the same way the glock was fired.

You would need to be twice as stupid to pull that stunt with a revolver

Thats the downside of Glocks. Yes they always go bang, just like an AK. But like an AK, their design is for folks who don't know how to use a flush toilet, ie, the lowest common denominator.

In trained or experienced hands, all the no safety plastic fantastics are wonderful. But in the hands of the untrained, inexperienced or irresponsible, which is their primary market, they can be a problem.

Thats why the XD is superior

Me and and my bud had to cut our shooting session last weekend a bit short due to plastigun people banging away next to us. Not worth our time to correct them, especially since the one doing the training of his totally lost partner was acting like a know it all...especially as he got a solid 12 inch group with his Polymer wondergun at 7 yard.

Of course I was a jerk too... when they asked for a cease fire, I asked them to hold to fire my last shot and proceeded to pop a clay pigeon fragment at 50 yards with my High Standard, then gave 'em a wink

WildstresscityheretodayAlaska ™©2002-2011

[BlueTrain]

Overall, I'd have to call this a freak accident. It isn't something you hear about all that often, after all, though you do seem to hear more about Glock mishaps than about other guns. I have two automatics myself and one of them does not have a thumb safety by design, meaning it and a few others designed at the same time do not have them because they were designed to a certain specification that called for no safety switches (or words to that effect). But given that it was a German police specification, I can only assume they considered a pistol without one was still safe enough. My other one has a slide mounted safety that does not lock the slide. Both are hammer fired and do not have light triggers. Either way, it should tell you there is some risk to carrying around a loaded gun, though it is probably a lot less than driving back and forth to work.

[AK103K]

I see the issue here and that is you did not use a Glock holster.

Glocks dont need special holsters. In fact, they really dont need a holster anymore than anything else, if your reasonable in you handling.

Now we know why there is a thumb safety on the 1911.

I carried 1911's most of my adult life, and on many occasions, the thumb safety got knocked off while in the holster sometime during the day. Ive also had a few 1911's that had inoperable grip safeties, right out of the box. The 1911's are just as dangerous as anything else, and arent immune to troubles. I learned a long time ago, you dont want a holster with a safety strap. I learned that with a 1911, and luckily, I caught it before it got to problem status.

The first time that corner of the holster folded in it should have been discarded and replaced.

While I agree for the most part, to be fair, this could have been the first time, and he got to learn his lesson right off. Lucky him.

so is this really a holster issue or a gun issue? could you reasonably expect the same results with say a 1911? i have read over time other ad's with glocks and always there seems to have been some outside force that "caused" the ad and "not" the guns fault.

Other than a part failing, whether you like it or not, it all comes down to user error.

I'd have to call this a freak accident.

I wouldnt call it a freak accident, just one that that had a high probability of the inevitable. I'll bet he had plenty of warnings all along, whether he knew it or not, either way, he chose to ignore them.

[Deerhunter25]

Lol Wild.

[BlueTrain]

OK, why do you not want a holster with a safety strap?

Do you realize that the holster issued to German military police for the P7 has a thong type retaining strap, just like on Western style holsters from the 1950s. I was dumbfounded when I saw the photos, several, in fact, but apparently that's the setup they use. The rest of the army uses other pistols.

[AK103K]

Safety straps cause problems reholstering (that strap is like a trigger finger if you dont mind it), and many times, they require two hands to get the gun back in. The strap in the trigger guard was the main reason I started to cut them off, and buying holsters without them.

I had a couple of brand name holsters that had them, and they were almost always unsnapped at the end of the day anyway. A good, form fitted holster, or one with tension screws is much better and simple.

I'm not in the Bundeswehr or the Polizei, so I could care less what they, or any other outfit does. I had a P7M13 when they first came out, and they do require a decent holster, especially if worn IWB appendix fashion. The guns are butt heavy and dont have enough barrel to keep them in your pants.

Unfortunately, when I had mine, decent holsters for them were about non existent, so you had to deal with what there was. I was more worried about the mag release being hit and dumping the mag than I was about the gun coming out though. Even when wearing a "pistol pocket" with the strap removed, the gun stayed put when it flipped out and hung upside down on my belt when I would bend over. Needless to say, I quit carrying it that way.

[hartlock]

I think this was caused more by the type of gun the op was using then the
type of holster. I have been using a Galco slide holster for my Para 10-45
for over 5 years, and havent had anything like that happen to me. And, it
doesnt require me to "readjust" it all the time, either. Glocks are famous for
AD'S, and that why i wont buy another til they put a manual safety on them!

[BlueTrain]

There shouldn't be any reason to hurry when reholstering a handgun.

[Will Beararms]

This applies to me and me only and does not mean that I have animosity towards anyone who does not agree with me. I will not carry any handgun with a round in the chamber that does not have one or both of these: manual safety and/or grip safety.

Again it is no personal to anyone who carries a Glock or similar weapon. It is irrefutable that they are one of the finest and most reliable weapons out there. For the money, I think they are the most durable, well made weapon. I just cannot get past no grip or manual safety. I feel the same way about revolvers, S&W M&P's with no manual safety, Sigs with no manual safety,Kel Tecs, Rugers, etc.

Due to the Glocks great slide action, I would carry it Israeli style if I owned one. The time needed to rack the slide would also serve as time to determine shoot/no shoot.

[Will Beararms]

Steve: Hindsight is 20/20 but here goes: "One word----Kydex". Remember when Glock came out with their holsters? Ugly----yes sir they are but they work. I really like the concealment potential for the Glock 19 in relation to the capacity. I am not a 9mm fan but if I owned one, there is a good chance it would be a Glock 19. For the size, the firepower is excellent. Everyone I have been around has been reliable and very accurate.

I am a platform guy when it comes to pistols. My go-to is the 1911 platform. It is more than just the .45ACP cartridge, it is the total package. The G19 is to me, the best platform for the 9mm round when all things are considered.

I want you to know this lest you think I am a Glock basher. I have owned two and will probably own a G19 before it is all said and done. I will carry it Israeli style.

[GuyM9]

This is not meant as a slam against Glocks, I believe in "to each his own." But, this is the very reason I sold all my Glocks. They can and do go "boom" when the trigger is pulled, and there is no other mechanism to prevent it from happening. I still think Mr. Browning made one of the best designs ever which were carried thru to the High Power and to some extent the BDM.

Guy

[Don P]

They can and do go "boom" when the trigger is pulled, and there is no other mechanism to prevent it from happening.

What happened to the most important safety, the one between the ears?

[Sarge]

Stock trigger setup on your gun, Steve54?

[AK103K]

I can easily see what happened here happening with any gun with a DA trigger, and SA triggers where the safety has been knocked off, are even worse. This wasnt a gun issue.

I have been using a Galco slide holster for my Para 10-45
for over 5 years, and havent had anything like that happen to me. And, it
doesnt require me to "readjust" it all the time, either.

But you do/did have to readjust it "sometime", right?

Im also willing to bet, once you start doing it and get used to it, you do it more than you think too.

A lot of this too, has to do with what you do, and how you do it. Some holsters are totally inappropriate for certain lifestyles.

I know with what I do for a living, using that type holster, Id be picking the gun up off the ground all day long. I need a holster that covers the bulk of the gun (especially the side against my body), and holds the gun securely without straps or snaps. I cant wear leather in the summer, and that pic of the holster in question isnt, or hasnt even been damp from my standpoint. Kydex really is one of the best holster materials going, and for a number of reasons.

Realistically, once that gun goes on your belt in the morning, you really shouldnt have to touch it for any reason (other than use), the rest of the day. If you are, then you need to work on something.

There shouldn't be any reason to hurry when reholstering a handgun.

Very true, but there are times when you need to and/or are distracted while doing so.

Complacency is another problem, and probably the worst of the lot. You get to comfortable doing things and you get sloppy.

I will not carry any handgun with a round in the chamber that does not have one or both of these: manual safety and/or grip safety.

Safeties are kind of a trick question kind of thing. People put great (or maybe "blind" is a better choice of words) faith in them, and then they are surprised, because something happens when they "shoudnt" have.

As Ive said earlier, I often found the thumb safties on my 1911's had been knocked off at some point during the day, and I had no idea until the gun was pulled from its holster that night for a wipe down. Ive also had a number of 1911's where the grip safeties were inoperable, right out of the box (you have and continually check yours for function, right?).

Using a holster like the one in this case, its entirely feasible that a 1911 or anything else for that matter, could have given the same result.


I think the real solution here, is to choose a proper holster for your lifestyle, and make sure it really is the right choice (that means experimenting with it and proving it beforehand). I know someone who spent $2500 on a pistol, and bought a $5 Uncle Mikes holster out of the bargain bin for it. Some people are just oblivious when to come to common sense. Then again, if you dont actually carry much, it might seem fine. That too can be part of the problem.

You also have to constantly pay attention to your gear and stay on top of it. You take care of the gun (I hope), why arent you giving the holster the same attention, and at the same time?

[BlueTrain]

I still say it's a freak accident, which is not to say it isn't easy enough to understand. The thing is, I'm not about to bash the person so hard over the head about the things he has told us about. If I was him, I'd never make another post here about stupid things he's done. I've done my share of stupid things (only a few involving firearms or something dangerous) and I'd rather not subject myself to the kind of responses that could only be expected.

I for one am not able to maintain 100% attention 100% of the time. I am therefore an accident waiting to happen, or so I gather. But I would still be interesting to hear about the next holster the man picks out--or the next gun.

You know, I'm constantly having to readjust my belt, my pants, my tie. Are those hardware problems or software problems?

[Will Beararms]

I have to agree the biggest safety is the one between the ears. From there it is all about comfort to me. I am not comfortable without a manual or grip safety when carrying a handgun with one in the pipe and as AK103K has wisely pointed out, even then things go wrong. The one common denominator I see here that I like is the idea of a firm or rigid holster covering the trigger guard.