1918 RAF Colt Government Model .455 Eley Pistol

varifleman · March 26, 2013, 01:06 PM

Here for your viewing pleasure are photos of my WWI RAF British military proofed .455 Eley British RAF contract Colt Government Model pistol. It was one of 400 pistols shipped to Captain Sir Connop Guthrie, Pier 60, North River NY NY on March 12, 1918. Guthrie was the Special Representative for the British Ministry of Shipping in the U.S. and a member of the U.S. Shipping Commission in 1918. It has the view mark for G.W.R. Steadman, British Inspector at the Colt New Haven Factory and the British Broad Arrow and Crossed Pennant military acceptance marks. Serial number is W 100744.

varifleman · March 26, 2013, 01:13 PM

additional photos to show the Broad Arrow British military ownership mark, Crossed Pennants proof mark and Crown/G2/A view mark of G.W. R. Steadman, the British government inspector at Colt's Hartford CT plant.

varifleman · March 26, 2013, 01:15 PM

one more photo

Whirlwind06 · March 26, 2013, 01:38 PM

Wow that is very cool! Thanks for sharing the photos. I always thought of the .455 as revolver round. But I guess if they converted .455 S&W and Colt revolvers to .45 ACP that it would be suited for semi-autos.

Bob Wright · March 26, 2013, 01:57 PM

The .455 Webley was an auto pistol round known in England as the .455 Webley, designed for the .455 Webley Auto pistol. Entirely different cartridge from the revolver round.

Bob Wright

SPEMack618 · March 26, 2013, 02:07 PM

Great piece, varifleman.

And fitting too, in this month's American Rifleman there is an article about the various chamberings of the Government Model, the .455 Eley being listed.

lamarw · March 26, 2013, 02:17 PM

Thank you for sharing. Do you have any additional provenance on the pistol after its initial delivery?

In the pictures the finish appears significantly finer or better preserved than the wear on the grips.

I am not an expert in this area, but a casual observer. It will be interesting to hear the views of others.

Pilot · March 26, 2013, 02:21 PM

How does the ballistics of the .455 Eley compare to the .45 ACP?

varifleman · March 26, 2013, 02:24 PM

Hi Lamarw: Unfortunately I don't have any other info on the pistol after initial delivery to the British government. Most of these pistols were refinished by the Brits at some time during their RAF service, most like just prior to or during WWII. Most were later converted to fire .45 ACP by replacing barrel and magazine due to ready availability of .45 ACP so I'm fortunate that this pistol is still in original .455 Eley caliber barrel and magazine.

GyMac · March 26, 2013, 05:59 PM

I saw one like that in a gun shop in Seattle in 1977. The owner had been showing me his collection of .45's and I still remember the drama and flair as he opened a briefcase to show me his special prize. In my mind, I remember him referring to it as the .455 SL, self loading.

lamarw · March 26, 2013, 08:06 PM

Thanks for the response and additional information. Many of the surviving
M1911A1's have also seen depot refurbishment.

The first thing I started doing, while I drooled over your pictures, was counting the number of rows of checkering between the diamonds on the grip. This is how I picked-up on the worn and smooth warm patina of the old grips.

The one thing anyone who picks-up and holds an old M1911 remembers is the great feel of those old worn double diamond grips. Just to imagine the number of hands which have gripped and held onto those old grips is a thing to cherish in my own mind. Many of these old pistols have also seen their share of combat duty and possibly in several theaters of war.

James K · March 27, 2013, 11:25 PM

The .455 Webley Automatic Pistol cartridge has about the same ballistics as the .45 ACP, but it has a longer case and a rounder bullet than the ACP round, plus is semi-rimmed. Because of the rim, it can be chambered and fired in .455 revolvers, which were designed for a different cartridge of much lower pressure. The British War Office sent out a warning to NOT fire the .455 Webley Auto cartridge in ANY .455 service revolver as the gun could be blown up.

FWIW, the Colt .455 pistol is NOT the same as the .45 ACP gun and there are several significant differences. Because of the semi-rimmed round, the magazine is wider and the magazine well is wider to allow for that. The barrel is made without a sharp shoulder in the chamber since the .455 Auto is supported on its rim (like the .38 Super), not on the case mouth like the .45 ACP. That means the .45 ACP will not fire in the .455 pistol unless the cartridge is held by the extractor. The reverse won't work either, as the .455 Webley Auto won't feed or chamber properly in the .45 ACP pistol.

Jim

biohazurd · March 28, 2013, 01:44 AM

Very, Very, cool. The .455 1911s are always a treat for me to see. A great piece of history!

varifleman · March 28, 2013, 10:18 AM

Thanks for the comments. Lamarw, nice WWI 1911, can you post more photos? James K; nice comments re design modifications to the Colt Goivernment Models chambered in .455 Eley. I'm fortunate that this pistol retains the .455 barrel and magazine.

glenncal1 · March 28, 2013, 01:18 PM

Vari- you have a nice collection of old Colt's, hang on to them the price isn't going down.

James K · March 28, 2013, 08:53 PM

I got an off-line comment asking what the chances are of someone firing .455 Webley Auto in a .45 ACP pistol, since the Webley round is almost unobtainable. Sure, but just in case someone has a couple of cases of it lying around getting in the way, I did think the point should be mentioned.

(I have a half dozen rounds; I think it cost $6 a round several years ago.)

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2013, 06:39 AM

The Webley Automatic's ballistics were a step below the .45 ACP's.

The Webley used a 224 or so grain bullet at about 700 fps, for 244 or so ft. lbs of energy.

US military ammo used a 230 gr. bullet at roughly 850 fps, for about 370 ft. lbs of energy.

James K · March 29, 2013, 02:10 PM

According to the Text Book of Small Arms, that 700 fps figure is taken 30 feet from the muzzle.

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2013, 03:29 PM

Which means muzzle velocity would, at best, be in the 750 fps range, if that.

tekarra · March 30, 2013, 04:38 PM

Another interesting 1911, thanks for the post.

Kreyzhorse · March 30, 2013, 08:30 PM

Nice. I learned some thing new tonight. Thanks for posting.

B. Lahey · March 30, 2013, 08:52 PM

That is magnificent.

SVO · March 30, 2013, 09:00 PM

Was this the gun that was listed in the recent Rock Island auction by chance?

James K · March 30, 2013, 09:53 PM

FWIW, the stampings on the barrel are the British commercial proof marks, put on when the pistol was sold out of government stores, probably c. 1957.

Jim

varifleman · March 31, 2013, 12:06 PM

SVO: I got the pistol on Gunbroker several months ago.

March 26, 2013, 02:07 PM	#6
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	Great piece, varifleman. And fitting too, in this month's American Rifleman there is an article about the various chamberings of the Government Model, the .455 Eley being listed. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!" Last edited by SPEMack618; March 26, 2013 at 02:25 PM.

March 26, 2013, 02:21 PM	#8
Pilot Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2000 Posts: 4,193	How does the ballistics of the .455 Eley compare to the .45 ACP? __________________ Pilot

March 28, 2013, 01:18 PM	#15
glenncal1 Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 2009 Location: Denver area Posts: 504	Vari- you have a nice collection of old Colt's, hang on to them the price isn't going down. __________________ Jim Many K and N Frames

March 29, 2013, 06:39 AM	#17
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The Webley Automatic's ballistics were a step below the .45 ACP's. The Webley used a 224 or so grain bullet at about 700 fps, for 244 or so ft. lbs of energy. US military ammo used a 230 gr. bullet at roughly 850 fps, for about 370 ft. lbs of energy. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 29, 2013, 03:29 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Which means muzzle velocity would, at best, be in the 750 fps range, if that. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 26, 2013, 01:38 PM	#4
Whirlwind06 Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2006 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 998	Wow that is very cool! Thanks for sharing the photos. I always thought of the .455 as revolver round. But I guess if they converted .455 S&W and Colt revolvers to .45 ACP that it would be suited for semi-autos.

March 26, 2013, 01:57 PM	#5
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	The .455 Webley was an auto pistol round known in England as the .455 Webley, designed for the .455 Webley Auto pistol. Entirely different cartridge from the revolver round. Bob Wright

March 26, 2013, 02:17 PM	#7
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	Thank you for sharing. Do you have any additional provenance on the pistol after its initial delivery? In the pictures the finish appears significantly finer or better preserved than the wear on the grips. I am not an expert in this area, but a casual observer. It will be interesting to hear the views of others.

March 26, 2013, 02:24 PM	#9
varifleman Member Join Date: August 9, 2010 Posts: 70	Hi Lamarw: Unfortunately I don't have any other info on the pistol after initial delivery to the British government. Most of these pistols were refinished by the Brits at some time during their RAF service, most like just prior to or during WWII. Most were later converted to fire .45 ACP by replacing barrel and magazine due to ready availability of .45 ACP so I'm fortunate that this pistol is still in original .455 Eley caliber barrel and magazine.

March 26, 2013, 05:59 PM	#10
GyMac Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Posts: 189	I saw one like that in a gun shop in Seattle in 1977. The owner had been showing me his collection of .45's and I still remember the drama and flair as he opened a briefcase to show me his special prize. In my mind, I remember him referring to it as the .455 SL, self loading.

March 27, 2013, 11:25 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The .455 Webley Automatic Pistol cartridge has about the same ballistics as the .45 ACP, but it has a longer case and a rounder bullet than the ACP round, plus is semi-rimmed. Because of the rim, it can be chambered and fired in .455 revolvers, which were designed for a different cartridge of much lower pressure. The British War Office sent out a warning to NOT fire the .455 Webley Auto cartridge in ANY .455 service revolver as the gun could be blown up. FWIW, the Colt .455 pistol is NOT the same as the .45 ACP gun and there are several significant differences. Because of the semi-rimmed round, the magazine is wider and the magazine well is wider to allow for that. The barrel is made without a sharp shoulder in the chamber since the .455 Auto is supported on its rim (like the .38 Super), not on the case mouth like the .45 ACP. That means the .45 ACP will not fire in the .455 pistol unless the cartridge is held by the extractor. The reverse won't work either, as the .455 Webley Auto won't feed or chamber properly in the .45 ACP pistol. Jim

March 28, 2013, 01:44 AM	#13
biohazurd Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2009 Posts: 340	Very, Very, cool. The .455 1911s are always a treat for me to see. A great piece of history!

March 28, 2013, 10:18 AM	#14
varifleman Member Join Date: August 9, 2010 Posts: 70	Thanks for the comments. Lamarw, nice WWI 1911, can you post more photos? James K; nice comments re design modifications to the Colt Goivernment Models chambered in .455 Eley. I'm fortunate that this pistol retains the .455 barrel and magazine.

March 28, 2013, 08:53 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I got an off-line comment asking what the chances are of someone firing .455 Webley Auto in a .45 ACP pistol, since the Webley round is almost unobtainable. Sure, but just in case someone has a couple of cases of it lying around getting in the way, I did think the point should be mentioned. (I have a half dozen rounds; I think it cost $6 a round several years ago.) Jim

March 29, 2013, 02:10 PM	#18
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	According to the Text Book of Small Arms, that 700 fps figure is taken 30 feet from the muzzle. Jim

March 30, 2013, 04:38 PM	#20
tekarra Senior Member Join Date: May 26, 2007 Posts: 1,164	Another interesting 1911, thanks for the post.

March 30, 2013, 08:30 PM	#21
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Nice. I learned some thing new tonight. Thanks for posting. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

March 30, 2013, 08:52 PM	#22
B. Lahey Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2008 Location: Indiana Posts: 2,857	That is magnificent. __________________ "A human being is primarily a bag for putting food into; the other functions and faculties may be more godlike, but in point of time they come afterwards." -George Orwell

March 30, 2013, 09:00 PM	#23
SVO Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Location: Texas Gulf Coast Posts: 728	Was this the gun that was listed in the recent Rock Island auction by chance?

March 30, 2013, 09:53 PM	#24
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	FWIW, the stampings on the barrel are the British commercial proof marks, put on when the pistol was sold out of government stores, probably c. 1957. Jim

March 31, 2013, 12:06 PM	#25
varifleman Member Join Date: August 9, 2010 Posts: 70	SVO: I got the pistol on Gunbroker several months ago.