hot blue question

bswiv · July 7, 2007, 06:22 PM

I have a old Ithaca O/U made by SKB and the metal finish is bad. Have a smith locally that will "hot blue" it for $100, which sounds quite reasonable.

My question is, will the barrels be bothered by the 300 degree solution? Will the solder hold? I did not ask him as I had not thought of it at that point but now I'm wondering?

Scorch · July 7, 2007, 06:50 PM

The barrel steel will not be bothered, but the solder that holds the shotgun together will mostly disappear and your shotgun will be ruined. You need to find a smith that can rust blue the shotgun. Brownells used to do this type of work, and Briley works on shotguns. Do not, under any circumstances, let some gun monkey hot blue your SKB. The only double barreled shotguns I can think of that can be hot blued are old Savage SxS and Valmet O/U because the barrels were brazed together.

James K · July 7, 2007, 09:26 PM

Scorch is right, an easy way to make two single barrel guns out of a double barrel is to hot tank blue the barrels. There are some other guns with barrels that are either silver soldered or brazed, but if not absolutely sure, don't do it.

The normal way of bluing double shotgun barrels is by using rust bluing, the way it was done by the factory. This is not beyond a DIY job if one is willing to take it easy and practice on an old barrel first. It does take care and patience. FYI, it involves cleaning the barrels heating them in boiling water, swabbing on the blue solution, then carding, reheating, swabbing, etc. A tank long enough to hold the barrels is needed as well as a cabinet that will hold the barrels while they rust. A good job can take several days.

Jim

Dfariswheel · July 7, 2007, 11:01 PM

+3.

To be clear about what happens:
It's not the heat that causes trouble, the corrosive salts chemical in the bluing bath attack and dissolve soft solders.

Drop a soft soldered double gun in a hot salts bluing tank, and the solder will be literally eaten away.
To add some interest to the affair, sometimes the barrels and ribs don't separate until the gun is fired.

I suggest you find another gunsmith while you're at it.
If this one doesn't know this very basic fact about bluing operations, he's dangerous.

bswiv · July 8, 2007, 05:33 AM

As I'm after a protective finish and not a restoration what about one of the applied coatings?

I don't know how they are applied but they are safe for the gun??

And while I'm pestering the truly knowledgable how about something like Oxpho-Blue from Brownells? I hear it does a very good job for a cold blue??

HammerBite · July 8, 2007, 07:54 AM

Does rust bluing appreciably change the dimensions of the item being blued? I assume that screw holes and pin holes should be plugged up.

PzGren · July 8, 2007, 09:27 AM

Rust blueing does not rust up screw holes or change dimensions. I have experimented quite a bit with it and found it to be very forgiving for smaller "mistakes", like degreasing. I even did barrels without plugging them. Tried some without degreasing the surfaces religiously.

Polishing on a buffer is not necessary, au contraire, 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper will do the job. Carding, by brush, or steel wool will also have a slight effect on the polished appearance of the finish.

The problem is that in order to get a real black blue - and not a brown blueing - you will have to boil the barrel in water and finding a right sized pot is not always easy.
It's very labour intensive but if somebody is patient enough, and loves his guns, after 10 to 20 applications, the results achieved by a dedicated amateur can match the best of hot blueing jobs.

BSWIV,

email or PM me if you want to try rustblueing and would like instruction or discuss more details. $30 to $60 will get you everything but the pots and you'll be good for many guns.
Let's use the internet as the information highway and not referrals for services!

HammerBite · July 8, 2007, 09:50 AM

Thanks for your response! I've been toying with the idea of getting an old beater gun, breaking out the Kuhnhausen book for advice about what to do to the insides and refinishing the gun myself. I think this could be a fun and educational project. If I screw up, the cost of the education won't be too bad.

I'm a retired old fart and have plenty of time to fiddle around with the bluing job.

James K · July 8, 2007, 10:56 AM

Just an addendum to what Dfariswheel wrote: Hot tank bluing will not only dissolve lead solder but also aluminum and aluminum alloy. I have never seen it happen but there are stories about gunsmiths who threw alloy frames in the bluing tank and had to buy the customer a new gun. I had a friend who was used to giving M1911 magazines a quick polish and throwing them in the bluing tank without disassembly. He was badly burned and almost blinded when he did the same with a BHP magazine, not knowing the follower is aluminum. The follower dissolved, the spring threw the remains of the follower and a big gush of caustic salt into his face as he leaned over the tank.

Jim

bswiv · July 8, 2007, 11:48 AM

OK, so the hot blue is out.

And in fairness to the smith I called locally I do not temember telling him it was a O/U, only that I had a "old Ithaca shotgun". He may have assumed a Model 37....

So what about one of the finishes like Parkerizing? Safe to apply?

I'm after protection as much as anything.

Dfariswheel · July 8, 2007, 02:40 PM

For ease of application, cost, durability, and appearance, it's hard to beat the modern "paint" type finishes.

These are usually epoxy based coatings that are sprayed on a thoroughly degreased and prepped gun, then either baked in the kitchen oven, or allowed to air cure.

These are VERY tough, durable finishes, come in virtually any color, can be stripped and re-done, and offer excellent appearance and protection.

Best of all, most of them can be done at home with minimal equipment, and with care, look as good a professional jobs.

Brownell's sell several different types, with the Aluma-Hyde oven baked, and the Aluma-Hyde II air cure being very good.
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...x?c=751&p=4798

Another VERY good coating is Lauer Duracoat.
They sell about any color you could possible want, and also carry a
kit that comes with an airbrush to apply the finish.
http://www.lauerweaponry.com/

PzGren · July 8, 2007, 04:39 PM

Dfariswheel,

I have to agree with the spray and bake finishes, they are really easy to apply and last. But on a double barreld shotgun, I'd go rust blue. Inexpensive and easy to do with minimal equipment.

Hammerbite,

any questions about rust blue, let me know. I cannot believe that rust blueing has not caught on more! It is not very hard. Making my wife's favorite dish is more difficult

Scorch · July 8, 2007, 07:02 PM

If you go to the Brownells web site and look at their bluing compounds, they sell one called Dicropan with a complete tank kit. It is a non-caustic, chemical bluing that will work on double shotguns. I tried it once with OK results. The kit comes with instructions for use. But for an SKB, which is a pretty nice gun, I would find a smith that can do rust bluing.

jamesl · July 8, 2007, 07:34 PM

you might contact SKB and see if your gun can be blued with hot salts. I've got a newer SKB o/u that I'm pretty sure has a hot salts finish on it.

HammerBite · July 8, 2007, 10:00 PM

Thanks for the offer!

I ordered a book about rust bluing from Brownells today. I'll keep you in mind if I actually decide to restore a beater.

July 7, 2007, 06:22 PM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	hot blue question I have a old Ithaca O/U made by SKB and the metal finish is bad. Have a smith locally that will "hot blue" it for $100, which sounds quite reasonable. My question is, will the barrels be bothered by the 300 degree solution? Will the solder hold? I did not ask him as I had not thought of it at that point but now I'm wondering?

July 7, 2007, 06:50 PM	#2
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The barrel steel will not be bothered, but the solder that holds the shotgun together will mostly disappear and your shotgun will be ruined. You need to find a smith that can rust blue the shotgun. Brownells used to do this type of work, and Briley works on shotguns. Do not, under any circumstances, let some gun monkey hot blue your SKB. The only double barreled shotguns I can think of that can be hot blued are old Savage SxS and Valmet O/U because the barrels were brazed together. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 8, 2007, 09:50 AM	#8
HammerBite Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 429	PzGren . . . Thanks for your response! I've been toying with the idea of getting an old beater gun, breaking out the Kuhnhausen book for advice about what to do to the insides and refinishing the gun myself. I think this could be a fun and educational project. If I screw up, the cost of the education won't be too bad. I'm a retired old fart and have plenty of time to fiddle around with the bluing job.

July 8, 2007, 07:02 PM	#13
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	If you go to the Brownells web site and look at their bluing compounds, they sell one called Dicropan with a complete tank kit. It is a non-caustic, chemical bluing that will work on double shotguns. I tried it once with OK results. The kit comes with instructions for use. But for an SKB, which is a pretty nice gun, I would find a smith that can do rust bluing. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 8, 2007, 10:00 PM	#15
HammerBite Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 429	PzGren . . . Thanks for the offer! I ordered a book about rust bluing from Brownells today. I'll keep you in mind if I actually decide to restore a beater.

July 7, 2007, 09:26 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Scorch is right, an easy way to make two single barrel guns out of a double barrel is to hot tank blue the barrels. There are some other guns with barrels that are either silver soldered or brazed, but if not absolutely sure, don't do it. The normal way of bluing double shotgun barrels is by using rust bluing, the way it was done by the factory. This is not beyond a DIY job if one is willing to take it easy and practice on an old barrel first. It does take care and patience. FYI, it involves cleaning the barrels heating them in boiling water, swabbing on the blue solution, then carding, reheating, swabbing, etc. A tank long enough to hold the barrels is needed as well as a cabinet that will hold the barrels while they rust. A good job can take several days. Jim

July 7, 2007, 11:01 PM	#4
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	+3. To be clear about what happens: It's not the heat that causes trouble, the corrosive salts chemical in the bluing bath attack and dissolve soft solders. Drop a soft soldered double gun in a hot salts bluing tank, and the solder will be literally eaten away. To add some interest to the affair, sometimes the barrels and ribs don't separate until the gun is fired. I suggest you find another gunsmith while you're at it. If this one doesn't know this very basic fact about bluing operations, he's dangerous.

July 8, 2007, 05:33 AM	#5
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	As I'm after a protective finish and not a restoration what about one of the applied coatings? I don't know how they are applied but they are safe for the gun?? And while I'm pestering the truly knowledgable how about something like Oxpho-Blue from Brownells? I hear it does a very good job for a cold blue??

July 8, 2007, 07:54 AM	#6
HammerBite Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2006 Location: Northern VA Posts: 429	Does rust bluing appreciably change the dimensions of the item being blued? I assume that screw holes and pin holes should be plugged up.

July 8, 2007, 09:27 AM	#7
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	Rust blueing does not rust up screw holes or change dimensions. I have experimented quite a bit with it and found it to be very forgiving for smaller "mistakes", like degreasing. I even did barrels without plugging them. Tried some without degreasing the surfaces religiously. Polishing on a buffer is not necessary, au contraire, 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper will do the job. Carding, by brush, or steel wool will also have a slight effect on the polished appearance of the finish. The problem is that in order to get a real black blue - and not a brown blueing - you will have to boil the barrel in water and finding a right sized pot is not always easy. It's very labour intensive but if somebody is patient enough, and loves his guns, after 10 to 20 applications, the results achieved by a dedicated amateur can match the best of hot blueing jobs. BSWIV, email or PM me if you want to try rustblueing and would like instruction or discuss more details. $30 to $60 will get you everything but the pots and you'll be good for many guns. Let's use the internet as the information highway and not referrals for services!

July 8, 2007, 10:56 AM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Just an addendum to what Dfariswheel wrote: Hot tank bluing will not only dissolve lead solder but also aluminum and aluminum alloy. I have never seen it happen but there are stories about gunsmiths who threw alloy frames in the bluing tank and had to buy the customer a new gun. I had a friend who was used to giving M1911 magazines a quick polish and throwing them in the bluing tank without disassembly. He was badly burned and almost blinded when he did the same with a BHP magazine, not knowing the follower is aluminum. The follower dissolved, the spring threw the remains of the follower and a big gush of caustic salt into his face as he leaned over the tank. Jim

July 8, 2007, 11:48 AM	#10
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	OK, so the hot blue is out. And in fairness to the smith I called locally I do not temember telling him it was a O/U, only that I had a "old Ithaca shotgun". He may have assumed a Model 37.... So what about one of the finishes like Parkerizing? Safe to apply? I'm after protection as much as anything.

July 8, 2007, 02:40 PM	#11
Dfariswheel Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2001 Posts: 7,478	For ease of application, cost, durability, and appearance, it's hard to beat the modern "paint" type finishes. These are usually epoxy based coatings that are sprayed on a thoroughly degreased and prepped gun, then either baked in the kitchen oven, or allowed to air cure. These are VERY tough, durable finishes, come in virtually any color, can be stripped and re-done, and offer excellent appearance and protection. Best of all, most of them can be done at home with minimal equipment, and with care, look as good a professional jobs. Brownell's sell several different types, with the Aluma-Hyde oven baked, and the Aluma-Hyde II air cure being very good. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/sto...x?c=751&p=4798 Another VERY good coating is Lauer Duracoat. They sell about any color you could possible want, and also carry a kit that comes with an airbrush to apply the finish. http://www.lauerweaponry.com/

July 8, 2007, 04:39 PM	#12
PzGren Senior Member Join Date: August 14, 2001 Posts: 1,260	Dfariswheel, I have to agree with the spray and bake finishes, they are really easy to apply and last. But on a double barreld shotgun, I'd go rust blue. Inexpensive and easy to do with minimal equipment. Hammerbite, any questions about rust blue, let me know. I cannot believe that rust blueing has not caught on more! It is not very hard. Making my wife's favorite dish is more difficult

July 8, 2007, 07:34 PM	#14
jamesl Member Join Date: December 30, 2006 Location: nw arkansas Posts: 31	you might contact SKB and see if your gun can be blued with hot salts. I've got a newer SKB o/u that I'm pretty sure has a hot salts finish on it.