1911 Colt Gold Cup MYSTERY

Lavan · December 11, 2000, 03:02 PM

HELP! I have a mystery with my Colt Gold Cup series 70 MkIV. I shot it over the weekend and it shoots just fine. BUT....When I took it apart to clean it, I noticed this mystery. Something is peening the frame near the hammer at the back of the frame. You can see it in photo1. There is an indentation at the front of the wear track and another at the rear as you can see. You can even see from the rear that whatever did it actually chewed a little bit out of the frame leaving a very small space between the back of the slide and the corner of the frame where it meets the right side of the hammer. The only part that could contact this area is the plate that retains the firing pin. I looked closely at it and it showed some shininess from wear. So just for the helluvit, I stoned it down in case it was the culprit. But it is still a mystery to me what could make that part slam into the frame with enough force to peen a little dent and then slam (or drop) down again at the rearmost travel of the slide with enough projection to gouge the rear of the frame. Is there any force acting on this seemingly inert retaining plate?
In photo 2, you can see that I relieved the plate on that side just to be on the safe side. Any ideas what could cause this? I did stone the peened craters a bit just to put it back to a relatively smooth surface.

Now......mystery #2. In photo 3 you can see the wear pattern on the lower rail of the slide. Again at the right rear of it. See the intermittent wear spots? How in the world can a slide show wear at intervals? In fact, the whole right lower rail shows those triangular wear spots like the slide was either machined wavy or somthing is making it flex (?) as it moves back and forth. I would suspect the former as I can’t see any way that the slide
could come back in spurts. The gun is fairly tight. I have owned it from new back in the ‘70’s and it shoots fine, but I have never looked real close at it before. There is a small bit of sideways play in the slide when it is in forward position but not excessive. There is no
movement of the barrel at either end when in battery.
I would appreciate any info or experience you may have had with a similar situation.

http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun1.JPG
http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun2.JPG
http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun3.JPG

James K · December 11, 2000, 04:40 PM

The mark on the frame appears to be from the firing pin block on a Series 80, so I am a bit puzzled. The firing pin retainer could mar the frame, but would not carry in that far. Could a Series 80 slide have been on the gun at one time?

Yes, the firing pin retainer can jump out of place during firing. When the slide comes back, it does not "push" back the hammer like the pictures show. It slams the hammer back so hard and fast that the hammer loses contact with the slide. At that point the gun is recoiling, the firing pin and the retainer try to stay in place (good old Newton) so the firing pin goes forward and the retainer comes down. The solution is to replace the firing pin spring with one having the right tension.

The other marks look like uneven milling on the slide and frame rails. This is not too unusual and normally gives no problem.

HTH

Jim

Lavan · December 11, 2000, 05:19 PM

Well, I had a bushing fitted by Steve Clark. I didn't look at it then but I can't see any reason for him to have put a series 80 slide on it. Course I can't see any reason to suspect that he DIDN'T either.
It WAS in a local shop for about 6 months while they fugged up everything and made it almost a piece of poop while supposedly trying to fit a bushing without any knowledge although they assured ME that they knew how to do it.
Thinking back on that, if it was fired with a Luger toggle on it, I wouldn't be surprised.
I just didn't pay any attention until yesterday.
Your analysis seems right.

James K · December 11, 2000, 09:29 PM

Hi, Lavan,

A Series 80 slide would be marked Series 80, but unless the firing pin block is removed, it would not work on a Series 70 or earlier frame (there is nothing to move the firing pin block). Did you notice that mark after you got the gun back or was it not there then? The whole thing is very confusing to me. I like to think I know the Colt .45 pretty well, but this one has got me.

For what it's worth, here is my speculation:

The shop really messed up the original slide, big time. Then they got a new slide, maybe off another gun, which turned out to be a Series 80, found it would not fit quite right because of the firing pin block, forced it on anyway (chipping the end of frame and marring the top), found it wouldn't work and removed it. Then they either fixed the original slide or ordered a new Series 70 slide. This would explain the long time they took to do a job that should take maybe a half hour. I hope that shop is nowhere near Maryland as I don't want to take anything there by mistake.

Jim

George Stringer · December 12, 2000, 08:54 AM

Lavan, the "wavy" marks just show that there are high spots in the rail ways. By having the slide fitted or tightened to the frame you could get rid of the uneven wear. As the the mark on the top of the frame in your first picture, you got me. Jim's guesses are as good as any. It could also be that some foreign object got inside when the pistol was last assembled. George

Lavan · December 12, 2000, 01:01 PM

The original slide still has the wear that it had when I took it in. There was no switch. But it damn sure is a mystery mark. The strange thing is that it is PRECISELY at the ends of the travel of the firing pin retainer plate.
I can see the plate dropping in recoil to allow it to gouge the rear part of the frame as it comes forward.
BUT damned if I can figure how ANYTHING could apply pressure to that plate in its FORWARD position.
That's why I stoned the plate to give it PLENTY of room. It is now smoothly rounded and relieved WAY up on that side where those silly marks are.
Shoot, those dimples show a LOT of pressure to make em peen like that.

Lavan · December 12, 2000, 01:11 PM

AHA! I....may....have it. Just thought of it as I signed off the previous post.
Dry firing. The retainer plate WAS a bit lopsided as I noticed when stoning it.
IF that little part was chisel shaped, and repeated dry firing drove it into the frame a wee bit each time, it COULD peen a little dent. I use the gun a lot and practice with dry firing often to maintain trigger control at little targets around the house. Aiming at flies, etc.
Possible.

James K · December 12, 2000, 02:15 PM

Hi, Lavan,

Dry firing should not hurt the firing pin retainer or cause it to come out of position. I recommend you check the firing pin spring and perhaps get a retainer that is a bit thicker and will fit more tightly. I see how the retainer could nick the end of the frame, but I don't see how it could cause that circular mark. I think you should have someone who knows the Colt pistol look at yours, but I can't recommend the gunsmith you mentioned.

Maybe this is dumb, but can you turn the slide over and see if there is anything on the bottom that could cause that mark?

Jim

Lavan · December 12, 2000, 02:36 PM

Well, other than the BB that is in there. HEH.
Nope, already tried that. No mark on slide.
The only part of the slide that touches there is the firing
pin retainer.
Maybe if I use valve grinding compound for lube for a year or so, I could polish it all up.
Smooooooooooothe.

Waterdog · December 12, 2000, 06:03 PM

Somebody put something on that frame that didn't belong, it got stuck so someone took a ball peen to it.

Look at the hammer, it looks like it had been hit by a hammer, then someone tried to file the peens out of it.

What the hell is a luger toggle?

I think there is more to this story than is being let on

Sorry man, I call it the way I see it.

Waterdog

[Edited by Waterdog on 12-12-2000 at 09:13 PM]

Lavan · December 13, 2000, 02:42 PM

Waterdog, u are rite. I had not looked at the hammer. The edge as it appears in the camera is deceptive as it is really sharp and unmarred. That Mavica camera just magnifies everything.
BUT! The top of the hammer face IS worn unevenly at the top right behind that mystery peen.
Looking from the rear, I can also see that the firing pin retainer plate is WAAAAY off square at the bottom.
I am gonna get a new retainer and see how that looks.
But......I still can't see what could get in there and cause that much peening and still allow the gun to operate.
But........the gun butcher who worked on it the first time here locally is someone I wouldn't even take an empty shotshell to.
Why do they call themselves gunsmiths?

December 13, 2000, 02:42 PM	#11
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	dang! hadn't looked there! Waterdog, u are rite. I had not looked at the hammer. The edge as it appears in the camera is deceptive as it is really sharp and unmarred. That Mavica camera just magnifies everything. BUT! The top of the hammer face IS worn unevenly at the top right behind that mystery peen. Looking from the rear, I can also see that the firing pin retainer plate is WAAAAY off square at the bottom. I am gonna get a new retainer and see how that looks. But......I still can't see what could get in there and cause that much peening and still allow the gun to operate. But........the gun butcher who worked on it the first time here locally is someone I wouldn't even take an empty shotshell to. Why do they call themselves gunsmiths?

December 11, 2000, 03:02 PM	#1
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	HELP! I have a mystery with my Colt Gold Cup series 70 MkIV. I shot it over the weekend and it shoots just fine. BUT....When I took it apart to clean it, I noticed this mystery. Something is peening the frame near the hammer at the back of the frame. You can see it in photo1. There is an indentation at the front of the wear track and another at the rear as you can see. You can even see from the rear that whatever did it actually chewed a little bit out of the frame leaving a very small space between the back of the slide and the corner of the frame where it meets the right side of the hammer. The only part that could contact this area is the plate that retains the firing pin. I looked closely at it and it showed some shininess from wear. So just for the helluvit, I stoned it down in case it was the culprit. But it is still a mystery to me what could make that part slam into the frame with enough force to peen a little dent and then slam (or drop) down again at the rearmost travel of the slide with enough projection to gouge the rear of the frame. Is there any force acting on this seemingly inert retaining plate? In photo 2, you can see that I relieved the plate on that side just to be on the safe side. Any ideas what could cause this? I did stone the peened craters a bit just to put it back to a relatively smooth surface. Now......mystery #2. In photo 3 you can see the wear pattern on the lower rail of the slide. Again at the right rear of it. See the intermittent wear spots? How in the world can a slide show wear at intervals? In fact, the whole right lower rail shows those triangular wear spots like the slide was either machined wavy or somthing is making it flex (?) as it moves back and forth. I would suspect the former as I can’t see any way that the slide could come back in spurts. The gun is fairly tight. I have owned it from new back in the ‘70’s and it shoots fine, but I have never looked real close at it before. There is a small bit of sideways play in the slide when it is in forward position but not excessive. There is no movement of the barrel at either end when in battery. I would appreciate any info or experience you may have had with a similar situation. http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun1.JPG http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun2.JPG http://www.tech-line.com/hockit/gun3.JPG

December 11, 2000, 04:40 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The mark on the frame appears to be from the firing pin block on a Series 80, so I am a bit puzzled. The firing pin retainer could mar the frame, but would not carry in that far. Could a Series 80 slide have been on the gun at one time? Yes, the firing pin retainer can jump out of place during firing. When the slide comes back, it does not "push" back the hammer like the pictures show. It slams the hammer back so hard and fast that the hammer loses contact with the slide. At that point the gun is recoiling, the firing pin and the retainer try to stay in place (good old Newton) so the firing pin goes forward and the retainer comes down. The solution is to replace the firing pin spring with one having the right tension. The other marks look like uneven milling on the slide and frame rails. This is not too unusual and normally gives no problem. HTH Jim

December 11, 2000, 05:19 PM	#3
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Well, I had a bushing fitted by Steve Clark. I didn't look at it then but I can't see any reason for him to have put a series 80 slide on it. Course I can't see any reason to suspect that he DIDN'T either. It WAS in a local shop for about 6 months while they fugged up everything and made it almost a piece of poop while supposedly trying to fit a bushing without any knowledge although they assured ME that they knew how to do it. Thinking back on that, if it was fired with a Luger toggle on it, I wouldn't be surprised. I just didn't pay any attention until yesterday. Your analysis seems right.

December 11, 2000, 09:29 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Lavan, A Series 80 slide would be marked Series 80, but unless the firing pin block is removed, it would not work on a Series 70 or earlier frame (there is nothing to move the firing pin block). Did you notice that mark after you got the gun back or was it not there then? The whole thing is very confusing to me. I like to think I know the Colt .45 pretty well, but this one has got me. For what it's worth, here is my speculation: The shop really messed up the original slide, big time. Then they got a new slide, maybe off another gun, which turned out to be a Series 80, found it would not fit quite right because of the firing pin block, forced it on anyway (chipping the end of frame and marring the top), found it wouldn't work and removed it. Then they either fixed the original slide or ordered a new Series 70 slide. This would explain the long time they took to do a job that should take maybe a half hour. I hope that shop is nowhere near Maryland as I don't want to take anything there by mistake. Jim

December 12, 2000, 08:54 AM	#5
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Lavan, the "wavy" marks just show that there are high spots in the rail ways. By having the slide fitted or tightened to the frame you could get rid of the uneven wear. As the the mark on the top of the frame in your first picture, you got me. Jim's guesses are as good as any. It could also be that some foreign object got inside when the pistol was last assembled. George

December 12, 2000, 01:01 PM	#6
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	The original slide still has the wear that it had when I took it in. There was no switch. But it damn sure is a mystery mark. The strange thing is that it is PRECISELY at the ends of the travel of the firing pin retainer plate. I can see the plate dropping in recoil to allow it to gouge the rear part of the frame as it comes forward. BUT damned if I can figure how ANYTHING could apply pressure to that plate in its FORWARD position. That's why I stoned the plate to give it PLENTY of room. It is now smoothly rounded and relieved WAY up on that side where those silly marks are. Shoot, those dimples show a LOT of pressure to make em peen like that.

December 12, 2000, 01:11 PM	#7
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	AHA! I....may....have it. Just thought of it as I signed off the previous post. Dry firing. The retainer plate WAS a bit lopsided as I noticed when stoning it. IF that little part was chisel shaped, and repeated dry firing drove it into the frame a wee bit each time, it COULD peen a little dent. I use the gun a lot and practice with dry firing often to maintain trigger control at little targets around the house. Aiming at flies, etc. Possible.

December 12, 2000, 02:15 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Lavan, Dry firing should not hurt the firing pin retainer or cause it to come out of position. I recommend you check the firing pin spring and perhaps get a retainer that is a bit thicker and will fit more tightly. I see how the retainer could nick the end of the frame, but I don't see how it could cause that circular mark. I think you should have someone who knows the Colt pistol look at yours, but I can't recommend the gunsmith you mentioned. Maybe this is dumb, but can you turn the slide over and see if there is anything on the bottom that could cause that mark? Jim

December 12, 2000, 02:36 PM	#9
Lavan Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 1999 Location: California Posts: 2,716	Well, other than the BB that is in there. HEH. Nope, already tried that. No mark on slide. The only part of the slide that touches there is the firing pin retainer. Maybe if I use valve grinding compound for lube for a year or so, I could polish it all up. Smooooooooooothe.

December 12, 2000, 06:03 PM	#10
Waterdog Junior member Join Date: January 6, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,236	Somebody put something on that frame that didn't belong, it got stuck so someone took a ball peen to it. Look at the hammer, it looks like it had been hit by a hammer, then someone tried to file the peens out of it. What the hell is a luger toggle? I think there is more to this story than is being let on Sorry man, I call it the way I see it. Waterdog [Edited by Waterdog on 12-12-2000 at 09:13 PM]