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August 13, 2008, 01:45 PM | #26 | |
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Why doesn't the NRA step in and start this then? Their course (Gun Safety Within the Home or something like that) was the basis for my CPL course, and I'm assuming for most states, so why can't we just edit the course to include a live fire test? |
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August 13, 2008, 01:46 PM | #27 |
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I didn't have to take any test to get my ccw as I was grandfathered in due to my age (I took and passed a hunting license test years ago, which would also have qualified me had I been younger than the non-test age limit).
I've heard about something like 20,000 gun laws on the books already. The majority of these are not enforced well enough. I don't like putting additional laws on the books to further restrict the Constitutional right to "keep and bear arms" for citizens. Gun crimes by ccw holders in my state is almost non-existant, even with the lack of forced classes, schooling, testing and such. Adding another law therefore isn't going to accomplish anything here. Perhaps in more urban areas there is some benefit, but for native born Idahians especially, most have grown up using guns as a tool and hunting is ingrained in most. Let's enforce some of the exisiting laws first, and see if there is a benefit to society by doing that. |
August 13, 2008, 01:50 PM | #28 | |
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Depends on your definition of infringement and then reasonable infringement. You can't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre in spite of the right of free speech; so, can you require training for firearms in spite of the second amendment? Good question. The difference, IMO, is that the 1st amendment has long been considered to be conditional (so to speak) but the 2nd amendment was treated as essentially absolute for MANY years.
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August 13, 2008, 02:01 PM | #29 | |
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August 13, 2008, 02:02 PM | #30 | |
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Keep in mind that this is a two part problem: what should "affordable training" should consist of? What is a "reasonable level of proficiency"? And how much would you expect to pay for a qualified instructor to instruct a novice to that level of proficiency? Once that novice is proficient enough, how much would should that novice expect to spend in order to get that "regular" practice...assuming the worst possible circumstances (must drive approximately 5-10 miles round trip, must pay range fees, must buy practice ammunition)? |
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August 13, 2008, 02:05 PM | #31 | |
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It's a free country. But we can discuss what exactly is safe driving, without infringing anyone's privilege to drive. Similarly, my freedom of speech ensures me the right to state what I think is safe gun ownership. |
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August 13, 2008, 02:12 PM | #32 | |
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way or ask enough people or read enough books ... Dry firing is free. If ammo is too expensive, a person can start reloading. If gas is too expensive, they can build a firing range in the basement. Expense should not stop anybody from learning how to properly handle a firearm. |
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August 13, 2008, 02:16 PM | #33 | |
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That may be true but once upon a time NO ONE carried concealed, they most always open carried because it was assumed by way of tradition that we are allowed to do so. One of the significant reason for carrying concealed today is that we law abiding citizens have essentially been driven "under cover" by fear mongers. (I know, there are "tactical" reason also) Current licensing is a violation of the amendment already and I don't think that because the states have been allowed to do so unchallenged justifies the action in the first place. I know you said you disagree with it already, so I'm not arguing with you. If someone punches you in the nose and you don't do anything about it does that give them the right to do it? NO! If the state violates a fundamental right and we do nothing, does it give them the right to continue? NO! but it does give them permission.
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August 13, 2008, 02:22 PM | #34 | |
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Now...please put a price tag on "reasonable". |
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August 13, 2008, 02:23 PM | #35 |
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I dont know, but I DO know a lot of people who dont need drivers licences!
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August 13, 2008, 02:27 PM | #36 | ||
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sphincters and morons on the streets should be taking the bus, in my opinion. Quote:
enough trained such that when life and death situation occurs they will have enough muscle memory and confidence in their abilities to actually allow the firearm to help them and not hurt. The above paragraph does not mention money. Cheers, Jae |
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August 13, 2008, 02:31 PM | #37 |
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I don't think that the driver's license analogy is a good one, because like you said I too believe that owning a gun for self defense ought to be considered a right, whereas driving on public roads is considered a privilege.
My problem would be if the State required State administered safety tests. Then you have a collection of government pukes deciding if you are "safe" enough to be able to defend yourself. Of course, they might decide that guns are inherently unsafe, and an affront to public safety, in which case, the bureaucracy will decide to "save" you by absolutely refusing to allow you to handle a firearm. Or even something a lot more pedestrian, but still terribly insidious, such as the clerk just doesn't believe in guns ownership and drags his feet, or somehow subverts the process every chance he gets. The right to keep and bear arms is too important a civil right to put into the hands of bureaucrats in that way. Having said that States that allow CCW/CHL are obviously requiring a competency test before issuing the permit. If this is to be done, then it ought to be allowable, as it is currently, to have private/third party entities administer the class and test so as to keep the influence of government away from the process as much as possible. Should you then say, well let's make the test harder to pass, well then two problems would arise: 1) you might possibly infringe upon a person's right of self defense, that can shoot safely, but perhaps not at the level of a grade A pistolero, which wouldn't be right, and 2) Anti Self Defense types would charge that it isn't right that regular people should be forced by the State to learn "combat" training designed to kill people. So, as it is, the status quo is probably the best compromise, that is, yes have a basic course and a basic competency exam for CCW/CHL carry only, administered by third parties, to make sure that you can handle the weapon safely, but to also allow the citizen to get more advanced training on his/her own. After all learning how to use a gun safely isn't rocket science. And forcing people to have to learn advanced shooting techniques just to allow them to have access to guns or CC, would be akin to forcing an average driver to learn advanced stunt/race car driving before you give them a license. I'm all for getting as much shooting (and driving, for that matter) training as possible. But this should be an individual's choice, not a matter of governmental coercion. Anyway, just some initial thoughts that I had. |
August 13, 2008, 02:36 PM | #38 | |
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There was a shooting at a bar north of my home about a year ago. Two younger guys got into an argument; one (aggressor who had a CPL) followed the other into the bathroom, continued to argue, and a fistfight turned into one (cpl holder) shooting the other (he was unarmed, and luckily suffered only a flesh wound). Now, carrying in a bar is illegal in MI. Aggravating a situation by following someone into the bathroom to continue an argument and then pulling a pistol when loosing a fistfight is also poor judgement. I believe that more involved licensing might have prevented this from putting a black eye on ccw holders, as those predisposed to such impulsive behavior might be weeded out when they find out they lack the patience and maturity to handle the process to attain such responsibility. I would like to see the NRA step up to do this myself, as like others I do have a limited trust of our government. |
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August 13, 2008, 02:40 PM | #39 | |
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BUT, a healthy dose of peer pressure should work wonders. There's nothing wrong with peer pressure. It's like telling a drunk friend that he should take the taxi home. You're not Uncle Sam and you're not even his Momma, but you should try very hard to get him not to get behind the steering wheel when he is drunk. Getting someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn to get the needed training is a similar matter. |
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August 13, 2008, 02:55 PM | #40 | ||
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Licensing designed to ensure operational competency can never ensure that one isn't a pure, unadulterated, idiot. In a free society, in order for the free to remain that way, occasionally, as indecorous as that might be, we have to deal with the mistakes of a few morons, and resist the knee jerk reaction to immediately come out with new regulation. Regulation that is often based on emotional and do-good-er reactions, that rarely withstand the scrutiny of sober deliberation and that unfortunately unleash all sorts of unintended consequences that end up biting us in the rear. So more involved licensing, especially if done by the government, would only achieve one thing, and that is more infringement on our rights. And when the inevitable idiot does an idiotic thing, then because you've uncannily made the right to defend oneself a privilege indirectly tied to the behavior of idiots, then eventually that privilege will dematerialize into thin air as well. Quote:
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August 13, 2008, 02:55 PM | #41 | |
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August 13, 2008, 03:08 PM | #42 |
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By golly when I was a LT. in the US Army we were taught firearms SAFETY and MARKSMANSHIP as I am sure our boys in Iraq are nowdays. We also had lots and lots of practice and drills. Lots of practice and drills. Lots of practice and drills. My father who is now 90 done the same thing but in the Navy CB's. He carried a M1 Carbine.
So much so what we did became natural. Obama and other Democrats have mentioned making the Military mandatory. Last edited by rogertc1; August 13, 2008 at 04:01 PM. |
August 13, 2008, 03:11 PM | #43 |
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OK, fine.
In order to be allowed to carry a gun around me, my family and other citizens, I think that you should: a. Have no criminal record, to include DUI and any violent misdemeanor b. Have served in the Armed Forces or other held another public service job for at least a year. c. Pass a comprehensive training course such as Ayoob's 40-hour class d. be required to become a member of the National Rifle Association and remain a member in good standing. e. show proof that you've voted in a recent election f. demonstrate proficiency with a simple pass/fail range test before being re-licensed when your permit expires. |
August 13, 2008, 03:20 PM | #44 | |
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Last edited by Saab1911; August 13, 2008 at 04:22 PM. |
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August 13, 2008, 03:51 PM | #45 |
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Having a gun is better than not having one when you need it. And no, I'm not talking about folks who need to learn the basics and don't know which end the bullet comes out of or what the sights are for.
Let's say it takes 2 years of assorted training and/or practice to achieve the level of proficiency advocated by many of the posters in this thread. Should the gun owner go 2 years without carrying until the magical level of acceptable proficiency is reached? IOW, even an untrained (again, not referring to a pure novice) person has a little bit a of chance in a jam if they have a gun. If they don't have one, well, they can't even get off a lucky shot. John |
August 13, 2008, 03:53 PM | #46 |
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"b. Have served in the Armed Forces "
Oh no, you want to give guns to drivers and recruiters too? |
August 13, 2008, 04:22 PM | #47 | |
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August 13, 2008, 04:27 PM | #48 | |
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Let me paraphrase that:
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August 13, 2008, 04:33 PM | #49 | |
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Robert Heinlein also espoused the view that only people who had served in the military could become Citizens and enjoy all of the rights and privileges that go with it. I'd be willing to expand that to allow people to go into police, fire, medical etc. positions...just something that lets them give something back to this great nation. But getting back on track, I don't want untrained, uninformed people who may be unfamiliar with how a handgun works or what the laws are carrying one around my family. Some of you "purists" may not think so highly of your families, but that's your choice. Believe it or not, people are not going to be dying en masse just because it takes them a little longer to get a CCW and that "right" is subject to the same reasonable regulation that every other right in this country is, just as our founders had envisioned. And BTW, people who respond not with rational arguments but with bumper-sticker slogans and stupid discredited cut-pastes only reinforce my belief that I'm probably right. |
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August 13, 2008, 04:34 PM | #50 |
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I don't trust any government to do the right thing, and I think they extort
way too much in taxes. I have "paid" in taxes about 1/2 million dollars over the years That's a big mansion with a pool and its own shooting range. How can I be expected to trust a group of people who spend money like drunken sailors? |
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