New 1874 Shooter Looking For Advice

[NYSharpsShooter]

Hello Gentlemen,


I've finally pulled the trigger and purchased an 1874 Sharps 45-70 Sharps made by Pedersoli. For years I wanted to get into black powder cartridge shooting and reloading but kept putting it off until now. The problem is that I feel like I don't even know where to start. I have decided to delay any casting of my own bullets and lubing them until I know how to assemble the cartridge in order to simplify the process. I will be purchasing bullets pre lubed to accomplish this. Here is a list of products that I have put together that I'm planning to buy. I would be very grateful if somebody could look it over and give me any advice as to what is missing or should not be included or if anything incorrect. Please take into consideration that where I live nobody shoots Sharps rifles or does black powder reloading so my resources are limited. I have Mike Venturino's book on Buffalo Rifles of the old west but he doesn't give much specific advice as to what to buy and how to use it. Is there another book that is more detailed when it comes to the actual reloading process?

1.) .459 520grn RN Cast Bullets 20-1 SPG lubed.
2.) .060 Vegetable Fiber Wads
3.) 45/70 Government Nickel Brass
4.) Federal Primers
5.) Swiss FF Powder
6.) Lyman Digital Caliper
7.) Blow Tube
8.) Cleaning Rod
9.) Three inch cleaning patches
10.) Gun oil

From here on out when it comes to dies' and case sizing I have to clue as to what to choose as there are so many different models and sizes. Please help me complete my list so I can be on my way to successful shooting. Thank you for your time and patience.

[Jim Watson]

Here's a www on the subject:
http://www.ssbpcrc.co.uk/Resources/I...%20Loading.pdf

Specialty boards at:
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/ (Don't worry, they can handle the Italian accent.)
http://www.bpcr.net/

The SPG Primer is good although it seems a bit dated in some respects - I don't know anybody using magnum primers and powder is getting a lot more compression these days.
http://www.shilohrifle.com/catalog/p...products_id=51

Check out Buffalo Arms, they have most of what you need besides powder.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/
A print catalog will come in handy.

1.) .459 520grn RN Cast Bullets 20-1 SPG lubed.
Probably ok. (Caveat, I shoot .38-55 and .40-65.)

2.) .060 Vegetable Fiber Wads
Tossup between .030 and .060, veg and poly, but you have to start somewhere.

3.) 45/70 Government Nickel Brass
Most shooters I know use plain brass.

4.) Federal Primers
Certainly OK, I have gone to CCI BR because of shortages of Federal.

5.) Swiss FF Powder
More Swiss 1 1/2 Fg is shot; Goex is usually FFg.

6.) Lyman Digital Caliper
Handy no matter what the loading job.

7.) Blow Tube
You bet.

8.) Cleaning Rod
Essential

9.) Three inch cleaning patches
I think 2" will do.

10.) Gun oil
Ballistol is popular but there are others that will work. You will need a water based cleaner, Windex All-Surface With Vinegar is good, some people use 10% Ballistol emulsified in water, there are many "recipes", plain water will work.

I have Lyman and RCBS dies that do ok with the addition of a couple of specialty items. Redding is good, too.
You need a cast bullet expander plug to give light tension on your bullet and put on a bit of flare, the ones in the die sets are usually too small.
You need a compression die to seat the wad and compress the powder before you seat the bullet.
Buffalo Arms carries both.

A hand decapping tool is handy. I like the Distant Thunder:
http://www.distantthunderbpcr.com/DTPages/DTProduct.htm
Many of us like to decap on the range and carry our brass home in a jug of soapy water. You can then wash it with a test tube brush or splurge on a rotary tumbler and ceramic media.

I'll post anything else that occurs to me.

[NYSharpsShooter]

Jim,

Thanks for the very informative post! I am very grateful for your help!

With lubed bullets how often should I run a patch through the barrel at the range? Do you change the patch after every swab? Is this done with plain water or should I use the windex and vinegar type mix that you recommended above?

If anything else comes to you please do post.


Regards,

[Jim Watson]

There are two schools of thought on BPCR management.

I am in the blow tube camp. Fire a shot, blow several lungfulls of air down the blowtube (4 breaths with my .38-55, looks like the .40-65 wants 5), load and shoot again. A good barrel, bullets with good lube, and the right number of blows will take you through a good deal of shooting as your breath keeps the fouling soft.
The other side wipes every shot. One pass with a damp patch is enough. It is about all you have time for in metallic silhouette, 5 targets plus sighters in 7 minutes, then 5 targets with no more sighters in 5 minutes. Patch can be dampened with Windex, oil emulsion, antifreeze mix, probably other stuff.

Well, two and a half schools of thought. Some shooters will blowtube between shots in a string and wipe or more thoroughly clean between strings.

One pass is all you get with a patch, they come out nasty.

There is such a thing as the bore pig, a brush backed up by a patch or squeegie type ring. One pushed through after every shot, pick them up and wash between strings.

[Gewehr98]

And I didn't see a drop tube for loading anywhere in there.

You'll want one of those, because that 520gr bullet is going to intrude deeply into the .45-70 case, robbing you of BP capacity. The drop tube settles your powder column into a more compact space, allowing you to get closer to the proverbial 70gr of black powder. You won't be able to get to 70gr without a little additional help (see below), but you've probably got a 28-34" barrel on your Sharps, and that barrel length is great for extracting as much velocity out of your BP loads, so go ahead and get a few more grains in there.

I shoot 500-550 gr cast and swaged bullets in my .45-70 Sharps, and I use both a drop tube and a powder compression die when loading my rounds. This puts a squeeze on the powder column, allowing me to get a full 70gr of Goex Cartridge in my rounds, and it also prevents the soft bullets from getting deformed when seating, because they're not compressing the powder enroute.

I also use Remington nickel cases, but it's only for ease of cleanup after shooting. Well, that, and I'm an extremely aesthetics-driven guy, and nickel .45-70 rounds just look spiffy when loaded with a 535gr Postell.

Blow tubes are a good idea to keep the BP fouling soft from shot-to-shot. I also cannot emphasize using the correct type of BP bullet lube, and plenty of it. Wiping between shots is somewhat dictated by how the fouling in the barrel forms, so keep an eye on it.

In case nobody here's told you already, BP cartridge rifles do not like petroleum-based bullet lube, period. I found that out the hard way one afternoon, and it took a good bit of time and effort to clean out the 32" of hard, tar-like fouling that resulted. It was just plain nasty, and a royal pain to remove. You want something organic, preferably using either a homemade mix of beeswax, crisco, lard, olive oil, etc, or buying an off-the-shelf lube like Venturino and Garbe's SPG, or Lyman's Black Powder Gold.

Your bullet should carry enough lube with it that you can see a wet "lube star" at the muzzle crown after the first one or two rounds are fired. That means that there is enough lubricant going down the barrel to keep the rifling slick all the way to the muzzle, not running out a few inches shy. Your BP fouling will remain soft if you stay on top of this aspect. If the bullet runs out of lube, you'll experience leading those last few inches, which is no fun in and of itself.

Make sure the bullet you load is capable of carrying enough lube for the trip, too. If it has just a couple shallow lube grooves, you might be in trouble, requiring a grease cookie under the bullet. My BPCR .45-70 bullets have at least three lube grooves, and most have four. Some folks suggest using pre-lubed Wonder Wads to keep fouling minimized and soft, but I haven't seen much of a difference, so I stayed with my cardboard tablet backer wads.

Jim's pretty much hit all the points of BPCR reloading, and I use standard Large Rifle primers, no need for magnums. I've even seen some folks use Large Pistol primers, I guess their intent is to provide more of a gentle ignition to keep the already low BP standard deviation even less.

[sundance44s]

You won`t have a problem with lack of powder space with the Italian made Sharps rifle ...these Sharps have free bore like the originals I shoot a Taylors ArmiSport Quigley in 45/70 ....which means they won`t shoot smokeless loads worth a dang ....but with black powder I load a .535 gr Postell bullet with 67gr of black and a .060 over powder card ....with this load my OAL is 3.010 ....don`t try that with smokeless powder ...........thats why the original Sharps rifle had the freebore ...when a box of shells had 45/70 written on them the buyer expected to be able to reload useing 70grs of powder .
You will need a drop tube of at least 24 inches ..or use a compression die ..
I use a drop tube and with my load I`m only compressing the load with my bullet seating by 1/8 of an inch ......If I did away with the over powder card I could load 70 gr of powder with no problems .
The American made Sharps rifles like Shiloh Sharps have taken the freebore out of theirs so the folks that buy them can shoot smokeless loadings with the shorter OAL max........
Why they want to make a Varmit rifle out of a Buffalo rifle ...I don`t understand ..

[enyaw]

Howdy! One thing that's handy is to start with "slugging" your bore to know what's in the chamber and in the rifling grooves. That way you can start with a proper size bullet. The bullet should be right at the groove diameter of your barrel or.....001-.002 in. bigger. That your pick and find the one the gun likes.
Slugging the bore by using Cerrosafe allow is real handy. It's melted and poured in the chamber and some of the rifling and it cools and hardens and shrinks a little so it comes out and then in a short time expands back to the exact dimension of the chamber ect. You then have something to measure to know what the chamber and the rifling grooves are like.
Buffalo Arms, Brownells, and other shooting supply places sell Cerrosafe. It's reusable also.
It seems reasonable that a person would start with a bullet that's .002 in. bigger than the rifling grooves and then try to find the best diameter for the rifles bullets from there. Sizers for the bullet can be had to go .001 or .002 smaller if needed. The right sizer is just what the rifle likes and right at the groove diameter of the barrel or up to .002 in. bigger.
Doing that Cerrosafe thing first can help you pick bullets and bullet moulds and sizing dies ect.ect.ect.ect. properly from the beginning.
When sizing the cases after firing you'd want to have a "neck sizing only die" and not the full length sizing die. You know....the case is sized only as far as needed to seat the bullet. That leaves the cases "fire formed" to the particular rifle. That centers the cartridges in the chamber well so it in turn centers the bullets to the centerline of the bore well for accuracy. Neck sizing only dies can be bought from places like Buffalo Arms and others places.
You want to pick an expander to have in your expanding die that expands the case mouth to what you want for what case neck tension you pick for the size bullet you pick. Expanders for your die of any size in increments of.001 in. can be bought from C&H Tools in Mt. Vernon Ohio.
I guess to sum it up you want to get "Cerrosafe" to slug the chamber and some riling to know what's there to pick the right "bullet diameter" and a bullet sizing die that corresponds. Then pick a "neck sizing only die" so your cases are fire formed to the rifles chamber and get the corresponding expander for your expander die to put proper tension on the size bullet you pick.
If you're going to buy bullets and not cast your own you still want to know the bullets are sized right for your rifle and the cases are case mouth sized for that bullet for the right case neck tension. The cases being fireformed by using a neck sizing only die.
That's Cerrosafe,the right bullet diameter bullet,the right bullet sizer,the right neck sizing only sizing die,the right expander for the expander die.
You have to decide what type bullet seater die you want. One that roll crimps the case to the bullet at bullet sesting time of a collet type the doesn't roll crimp. I guess a factory crimp type die. One or the other. That determines if you use the inline bullet sesting die like Meacham Tools sells or RCBS sells.
I think I got this right. I'm not up to par from being sick this morning so the other guys here may have to correct this post where I'm not right. At least clarify things.
I'm going back to bed.

[longranger]

Nothing wrong with no "free bore",Shilos are the top of the heap no matter what you try to compare there is no comparison.If Pedersoli could just drop that horrible incorrect forend.

[mackillan]

C. Sharps compare with Shilohs.

[sundance44s]

I know I`ve found doing the rescearch before I bought my ArmiSport Sharps the Italian made Sharps rifles can be a crap shoot getting a good one out of the box .........I was lucky , my ArmiSport was well fit and finished on all the parts ...the only problem I had was the 30W oil they had put on the stock ...after cleaning off the oil and starting over with a good hand rubbed finish ......I couldn`t be happier with my ArmiSport . Thinking about the dollars I saved , it was well worth it .
No matter who made the Sharps rifle you shoot ...if it shoots those tiny little groups way out there ...it`s a keeper .
I `ve seen alot of the Italian made Sharps rifles sell on Gunbroker and other places because the owner fired a few rounds of smokeless bullets bought off the shelf and couldn`t hit the broad side of a barn , after figureing things out and being a reloader I had no problems working up a black powder load to shoot these tiny groups . If you want one of the Sharps rifles to shoot the way they were intended to shoot ......store bought ammo just won`t get it ......not in the Italian made Sharps anyway ....the S. or C. Sharps may be another story I don`t have a clue on those models .

[mackillan]

The Shiloh are shooters. In Canuckland we have to reload for black powder. I use swiss and cases from buffaloarms.