Gun buying approach for a new, beginner shooter?

[freelansir]

Hi all. I've read quite a few threads here on the forums discussing specific rifles, brands, calibers side by side.

What I wanted to ask and gain the benefit of people with many more years of experience, is feedback on an overall approach to (1) Learning how to Shoot and (2) Buying specific guns in specific calibers to meet my short, medium and long term objectives.

Here's my criteria:

• I'm new to rifle shooting. Have a Browning BPS and enjoy trap shooting, but want to get into long(er) distances, to eventually get out and go hunting
  
• I live in Toronto, Canada... but there is access to a long distance range close by, up to 1000 yards.
  
• I don't have any specific budget for any specific gun/rifle combination, but was thinking of spending no more than $5000 (not including ammo) over the next few years to get setup on gear. The question is, what gear within that budget best meets my objectives
  
• I really have no actual desire to shoot large(r) calibers at long range at the range. My main goal for larger calibers is to go hunting. I don't plan on reloading, and so cost of ammunition is a factor.
  
• I would much rather invest in something that I can grow with (in terms of bench rest or practice) or that's quality/durable (that I can take pride in still owning in 10-20 years).

Here's what I was thinking on doing and buying:

• Feedback on my approach and any errors I've made in my reasoning would be welcome
  
• Any recommendations on my specific gun choices or alternatives, also welcome
  
• Any recommendations on specific scopes also welcome

1) Buying a high quality, .22, bolt action long rifle to start, and work my way up from 25 yards, to 50 yards, to 100 yards, to perhaps even 150-200 yards.

• I need to learn how to shoot, and I want to put a few hundred/thousand rounds through something that's not going to break the bank at just ~$0.05 per shot.
  
• This would be a range gun only. I live in the city, no opportunity to use this as anything other than a bench rest gun.
  
• I figure, I'll probably shoot the .22 the most, so I might as well get something that I'll enjoy shooting for years, rather than hitting a limit.
  
• Because I live in the city, there is really not much chance of "plinking", so 10/22 and any sort of lever .22 aren't good options.
  
• Was thinking specifically of either CZ 455 or Ruger 77/22 - thoughts on gun choices? Would the Marlin XT-22 do the job? Budgeting $750 + $250 or so for scope??
  
• If I were to get the CZ 455 or Ruger 77/22, would these shoot OK "out of the box" or would I still need to invest in any custom work, to get these to shoot past 100 yards accurately?
  
• What type of scope works well on a .22 at those ranges. Should I get one scope (to work within 50-100 yards) and then later, get a second scope to go further, or are there variable scopes that work well? How much to spend?
  
• Am looking to buy this in the next few months and a few cases of ammo and get started!

2) Next, I was thinking that I should buy a good quality .223 bolt action to learn the basics of long(er) range shooting with a real caliber with some recoil (but not as much as a .308 or 30-06 etc..)...

• Would ideally want to work within eventually 200-600 yards with this, learning the basics of especially wind adjustments, working with my scope...
  
• Also figure that shooting a lighter caliber will show me more of my mistakes at longer ranges, allowing for more opportunities to improve the fundamentals
  
• Cost of ammo for .223 is 1/2 that of the larger rifle calibers, meaning I can shoot and practice x2 as much for the same price.
  
• This would purely be a bench rest gun. It also might be nice to be able to enter competitions with this, entry level to begin with, but have the potential to work my way up.
  
• Am thinking of one of the Savage Model 12 target bench guns (a F/TR or perhaps a BTCSS) - thoughts? Would like the gun to be heavy, heavy barrel - I want to put a lot of rounds through this gun. ($1500 for the gun, $500-$1000 for the scope ??) Would pick this up the same time as the .22 likely.
  
• Any thoughts on what sort of scope would be good for 200-600 yards? Would I be ok just going with any of the name brands - Leopold, Zeiss, Nikon, or are there good value for money scopes in that range I should consider?

3) Lastly, I want to pick up my actual hunting rifle. Am thinking something like .270 as I doubt I'd be hunting anything large for the first few years. Also, prefer the idea of a flatter, faster trajectory, and the lighter recoil.

• likely would not need anything beyond 200-400 yards for this gun in real, practical situations. Weight would be a factor as it would be a field gun.
  
• Am thinking of something like Browning X-Bolt, perhaps Tikka T-3 or Vanguard Series 2, Stainless... thoughts?
  
• What type of scope would be best for those distances? What type of dollar value should I look at?
  
• Would perhaps pick this up in perhaps 12-18 months, after practicing with the .22 and .223

4) Lastly, if everything goes well, and I really, really am into shooting, and hunting, I might pick up a more robust caliber gun, something in .30-06 or .300 WMG for larger game.

• Perhaps something like a Winchester Model 70 in .30-06 // i'd fire this gun the LEAST, and only at the range to get accurate with it, but when I do shoot off a round, it would need to be accurate, keep a zero and be very reliable/dependable in the field.

------------------------------

Ok, I know that was a long post - I've been doing some research and thinking about this for a while. If people don't have time for any specific rifle recommendations, I'd love to hear more experienced shooter's opinions on the overall approach to learning how to shoot and buying gear that is useful, that I can keep and enjoy for years and years, and in terms of value for money.

Thanks in advance,
David

[g.willikers]

From your post, it appears that you have answered your own questions very well.
Judging from your stated goals, your choices are good ones.
Carry on.
But, like any activity, getting expert instruction for the fundamentals is as important as the gear.
It's mighty hard, if not impossible, to attempt to train yourself and get the results you seek.

[Mobuck]

I have a 77/22 and it's a good shooter. Not the greatest trigger but I shoot it well. If you want a "benchrest" 22, there may be better choices. Mine is a hunting/practice, and utility rifle and it handles those tasks well.
You need to learn to shoot(a rifle) before even considering "long range" and the 22 is the best way to start.
There are all sorts of .223 bolt rifles on the market. I like the Howa/Wby Vanguard line of rifles and find them to be accurate and good looking rifles. Counter to popular commentary, I feel the .223 is a 300 yard rifle due to it's poor wind drift resistance.

I patently dislike the 270 so the following is totally biased. A .308 will provide you with accuracy and adequate power for any game up to moose. Here again, the .308 is very good at some things but a compromise in other areas. I actually prefer the 30/06 but I'm old and not very progressive minded.

The above mentioned "rifle stable" will satisfy most needs for shooting paper or game at most levels.

[burrhead]

Looks like you're on the right track. Just a few comments. You mentioned an X-Bolt. I've had one in 308 for a few years and it is superb. Light, points well and mine is very accurate.

If you are getting a 270 (fine caliber) there's no practical reason to then get a 30-06. Either one is great but there's not a lot of ballistic difference unless you want heavy bullets for large game (moose, large black bears, etc), then the 30-06 shines.

As to long range shooting, you must reload. 600 meters is a long ways and you'll want to tune your loads.

You're headed in the right direction, just some things to think about.

[Boncrayon]

For a beginner .22, I'd recommend a Savage Mark II, a bolt action with a five round magazine, or a Ruger 1022 semi-auto with magazine, or a Marlin model 60 semi-auto with 15 round tube-feed. All above are .22LR.

I prefer a Nikon 3x9x40 scope, and for the .223 rifle a Nikon P-223 3x9x40. Would suggest bolt action for simplicity...easier to clean. Just some suggestions from your information you provided.

[T. O'Heir]

"...access to a long distance range close by, up to 1000 yards..." I was born and raised in TO. Haven't lived there for over 20 years though. Anyway, the only 1,000 yard range anywhere near TO is at CFB Borden. Except for the DCRA, there is no civilian access.
Shooting in Ontario is pretty much a club thing now anyway. There are no public ranges anywhere. A few clubs, like Silverdale, to allow day passes to PAL holders(no PAL no firearms) though. So where you are in TO(East end etc) and how far you're willing to drive matters.
Joining a club opens doors that are currently closed to you too. After a while the other members will become you friends and you will get invited to hunts and other like activities. And you'll very likely get to shoot most of the rifles you're looking at before buying. Shooters are just like that. Most will go out of their way to help a new guy. Trust me. Been there.
$5000 is really way too much. Unless it's for all three or four rifles.
"...I don't plan on reloading..." You will sooner or later. Makes a lot of ammo related issues go away. Lets you tailor the ammo to your rifle too.
Like burrhead says, a .270 will do everything .30-06 will do, including moose and big bears. Plus it's ok for the daft areas of Southwest Ontario and the municipalities close to TO that have calibre restrictions for hunting.
600 is too far for the .223's and there's really no place you'll ever be able to shoot that far. Take a ride up the 400 to say Highway 89, go either direction for a few klicks, stop and look around you. There's some kind of building within 250ish meters in every direction.
However, a .223 is a dandy varmint rifle. The Savage Model 12 is a target rifle, not a bench rest rifle. It's do, but they're expensive and not always readily available.

[burrhead]

As to 600 yards being too far for 223, there are a lot of Service Rifle shooters that would disagree. I regularly shoot a heavy 20" Ar at 500. It takes heavy bullets, 77 to 80 grains and up to 90 in a bolt gun, and learning to read the wind but folks do it every day. One isn't going to do it with off the shelf ammo though. It's a reloaders game.

I live in West Texas and believe me, we have lots of WIND, as I'm sure central Canada does.

[freelansir]

Wow - thanks so much for the feedback everyone.

On the .22 rifle....

@MoBuck - After looking around some more online, a few people talk about the Ruger 77/22 trigger not being great out of the box.

Combined with @Boncrayon's comments on the Savage Mark II being a good .22 contender, I'll probably scratch the Ruger 77/22 and look at the CZ-455 and/or Savage Mark II as my main choices...

Really appreciate the heads up on the 77/22 trigger. And I'll look closely at that Nicon 3-8 x 40 // It's only about $200 so for between $500 - 700, I could get started right away.

On the .223 rifle...

Ok, it's good to know I'm on the right track. @T. O'Heir, I was thinking about that Borden range. I live around St. Clair and Bathurst, so it's about an hour away. I've shot at the Oshawa range, but only trap because the rifle range required membership and was they weren't accepting new applications for the season, and Silverdale. I've called around to a few ranges in/around Toronto, and a lot of them have 2+ year waiting lists.

Based on a few other comments here, for this caliber, it sounds like i'll want to become proficient at around 200-300 yards, based on the caliber limitations and range availability in my area.

I'd still like to see if I could track down a Savage Model 12 (the local gun store has one, but out of stock right now) but perhaps it might be too much.. Perhaps a Savage Model 10 would be alright, or a Howa 1500 or Vanguard Series 2 or even a Tikka T3 and just spend the difference on glass.

@Boncrayon, will checkout the Nikon P-223 3x9x40.

There's just not much of an opportunity to shoot coyotes or anything in my city.

On the hunting rifle...

It looks like an X-Bolt would be a solid choice here. I love my browning BPS, very sturdy... Taking it apart and cleaning it, it feels like it's going to last a good number of years. I also liked the Winchester Model 70, just based on it's history, and the fact that the new FN guns seem to be much better made than 10 years ago.

I was hoping to avoid the .270 vs .308 vs .30-60 debate by just getting two rifles, but it sounds like I need to decide what it is what I want to hunt and what capabilities I need.

To be entirely honest, the first rifle I started shooting with was a light weight, 7mm Mag at the range (old rifle, no but pad either) and it was just wasn't that fun and, as my FIRST rifle to shoot, I was all over the map. Sometimes not even on the paper at 100 yards.

I was thinking the .270 would recoil less and the flatter trajectory, but getting a .308 or .30-06 might be more versatile down the road.

@T. O'Heir, the $5000 budget was for all guns, all scopes across the next 2-3 years... Perhaps rather than getting a .270 gun and then a 4th larger caliber gun (eg. 300 win mag) i should get either a .308 or .30-06 as an "all round" hunting gun, and invest the difference for a better scope on my hunting rifle, plus re-loading gear.

The main reason I didn't want to do reloading is just time. I spend a lot of time working my normal day jobs, and side projects. For the next few years, shooting and hunting would be a hobby. Probably in 5-10 years, I'd have the time to spend to spend to get that extra accuracy.

Ok, thank you to everyone who left a comment!
David

[Mozella]

As for shooting 22lr at a nickle a round, that won't satisfy you for long, assuming you have any interest in accurate target shooting. I'm not talking about competition either. If you like to shoot small groups you can start at 16 cents (American) per round and if you really catch the accuracy virus, plan on half a buck per shot. Yeah, that's right, twenty five bucks for a box of fifty; YIKES. Sad but true. Perhaps you'll be satisfied with less expensive and less precise ammo, but don't count on it. My "normal" ammo is Center X at about 28 cents per round. It's a lot of fun though.

I like my Savage MK II 22LR, but I did a lot of work to get it to shoot more accurately. Plus the standard rifle looks really cheap. The good news is I did it all myself and it wasn't too expensive. I changed to a Boyd's stock, bedded the action, did a trigger job, etc. If you aren't into fiddling around with your rifle, I would think you'd be happy spending a few bucks more on one of the CZ 22 LR rifles. They look nice and shoot well right out of the box.

I like my Howa 1500 .223 too, but I bought a barreled action and built a stock for it. You may not want to do that and if you don't, you might consider the Savage F/TR in .223 or 308. They don't require anything other than a scope to be competitive in club-level F class, it's within your budget, and they make a nice range gun if you don't choose to compete.

And don't think for a minute that reloading will save you any money unless you plan to live to be 200 years old. Reloading is the single most expensive thing you can do because to do it because you're searching for accuracy requires quite a bit of equipment and some of it needs to be "the good stuff". It's a wonderful part of shooting and not only do I enjoy it, it is pretty much necessary if you become an accuracy nut. You can buy OK .223 ammo, but to get really good results, you really have to hand load.

It sounds like you're doing a good job researching this subject. If you start with a good 22LR and start shooting that at an organized range, you'll learn a lot more about what you might want when it comes time for the other weapons you're contemplating.

Don't forget used guns. Most forums have a for sale section and I've had good luck buying used equipment of all kinds. I rarely read about a purchaser being disappointed. People who like guns seem to always want a new or different gun. Since a decent gun represents a good chunk of change for most of us, there is a limit to how many we can justify owning. Therefore, plenty of guys with a yearning for something new, wind up offering very nice guns on the used market. And there are enough of them doing it to keep the prices pretty fair.

[DaleA]

-one of the CZ 22 LR rifles. They look nice and shoot well right out of the box.

If you start with a good 22LR and start shooting that at an organized range, you'll learn a lot more about what you might want when it comes time for the other weapons you're contemplating.

Haruumph! Mozella took the words right out of my keyboard. (And he's a new(er) member too.)

Shooting a .22LR for accuracy can be a life long pursuit and the stuff you learn there definitely can slop over to other rifle shooting. Try .22LR competition. No greater spur IMhO than seeing your scores posted next to others.

[Crunchy Frog]

I'll toss in my two cents about the choice of .22 rifle. I'd take the CZ over the 77/22. You might also look at the Anschutz rifles but the CZ outshoots me.

[The Big D]

I think your plan starts out good and then goes down hill.

The CZ455 Varmint in 22LR is a modern marvel - by all means get one as your first rifle. I would recommend over-scoping it with something like a SWFA SS 3-15. That way you can use it as a long range trainer (shooting 22 at 150-200y is a lot like shooting big calibers father out in terms of wind calls etc.). I like the SWFA for this because it's Mil-Mil, FFP, and the parallax goes down to 6y, which is handy for a 22 - it's annoying to be shooting at 25y with a scope with a 50y minimum parallax setting. The CZ 455 comes in a version that has a Manners stock for an extra $500, if you want a crazy high end version.

I've just spent about $1000 of your budget, $1500 if you get the Manners stock.

Past that, I would seriously question the idea of focusing on bench rest shooting. It's NOT practice for hunting. It takes the typical shooter about 50 rounds of practice to print a 1MOA group from a bench. Past that, you will not improve your field shooting in any meaningful way by bench shooting. Field shooting is all about being able to print 2-4MOA groups from field positions. This is MUCH harder than it sounds - requiring many hundreds of rounds of practice in many positions and scenarios over many sessions to get good. The right weapon to use when doing this is the weapon you plan to use in the field.

Here, I would buy a copy of Jeff Cooper's Art of The Rifle and a lightweight .308 and a leupold VX2 2-7 to put on top of it and a speed sling (Ching or safari Ching prefered IMO). A .308 can shoot milsurp, which reduces your cost somewhat, and is one of the four big American hunting calibers (.270, 308, .30-06 and 7mm mag). Those 4 calibers are functionally VERY similar - what you can hunt with one, you can hunt with another. .30-06 pushes a tad into dangerous game territory, and 7mm mag has a slight advantage at long range, and .270 is a bit iffy on elk and moose, but basically they're all the same and .308 has the lowest recoil and cost of ownership. If I had to pick a specific gun here, I'd go with a Winchester Model 70 Extreme Weather in .308. The M70 action is pretty much the nicest of the common commercial actions, and that rifle comes with a stock and barrel well suited to a broad range of hunting uses.

I've just spend another $1500 of your budget, for $2500 total.

At this point, there's really no further reason to buy more guns for your stated application. But if you do find yourself hunting something the .308 won't handle (which means the great bears, bison, or something in Africa or Asia) you might get a medium bore like a .35 Whelen which will handle anything in North America with authority. Alternately, if you find yourself doing a lot of long range hunting, you might buy a dedicated .264 Weatherby or 7mm Mag or 7mm STW.

[The Big D]

If you do decide you want to shoot from the bench purely for accuracy at long range (which is somewhat of a hollow endevor IMO) you're going to want to be in one of the 6mm, 6.5mm, or 7mm calibers. I like 6.5 Creedmoor personally, but .243 and .260 and all the 7mms are fine too. Those calibers are where all the good long range bullets live.

[freelansir]

The Big D,

It sounds like, based on my stated objectives, we might be able to simplify down my approach significantly..

1) For the .22 LR rifle, a CZ-455 Varmint - maybe something like this if I can find it:

* http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-var...mbhole-fluted/

Then, scope it up with the SWFA SS 3-15

* http://www.amazon.com/SWFA-3-15x42-T.../dp/B00X4MY570

I was looking at the Nikon ProStaff 4-12x40mm, but your logic matches what I was thinking anyways, in that I can and get a handle on the fundamentals with the smaller caliber bullet (in terms of wind/scope adjustments) as with a larger caliber bullet at longer ranges (but for less dollar per shot, meaning more rounds)

2) In terms of the hunting rifle, just get a solid .308 in terms of an overall hunting rifle that can do it all and skip the .270 vs .308/.30-06 since there is too much overlap and the recoil differences shouldn't play a factor.

-- I read over the comments today, and basically arrived at the same conclusion. I think I've narrowed it down to either a Browning X-Bolt (it's only on the list since I enjoy my Browning BPS so much) and an hour ago, I picked out the exact same Winchester Model 70 you were recommending in .308 as an alternate.

* http://www.winchesterguns.com/produc...01c&mid=535206

In this case, you're saying that a $300-500 scope (eg. VX2 2-7 ) would be perfectly adequate for my 200-400 yard use case at either the range or in the field.

-----------------------

Ok, I think that's really solid, and the reasoning makes sense and all for 1/2 of what I was originally looking to spend over a few years.

I guess here's where I feel, if I went ahead and purchased those two guns, got behind the trigger and put a few thousand rounds down range went went out on a few hunts... is that one of my other "objectives" I guess is to also simply "learn" how to shoot better and have "fun" at the range (especially since I could only get out hunting perhaps 1-2 times per year, the rest of the time, I'd want to hit the range for fun).

The Winchester Model 70 is a fairly light gun, at close to 7 pounds, and until I'm re-loading, it wouldn't be super economical to put 50-100 rounds downrange while practicing, until I'm able to re-load at the same time (which, due to time constraints, probably won't happen for at least a few years). And jumping up from a .22 LR right up to a .308 might be a steep learning curve in terms of getting used to the recoil?? Plus, would it really be that fun to shoot 50-100 rounds with a light weight hunting rifle every few weeks? Plus the heat in a light(er) weight barrel?

The original idea was that the .223 gun would let me do that philosophy of use at the range, at around 1/2 the cost of Factory Ammo (or 1:1 cost to .308 ammo in perhaps premium .223 ammo), to try and stretch out a lighter caliber bullet from 300-600 yards to learn to improve my skills... and with something with lighter recoil to be more fun to shoot.

Thoughts? To your point, I don't think I'd be hitting the range to purely shoot long range for the sake of shooting long range, but to keep working to improve my skills at shooting, purely for the interest of it being a hobby.

Given we've only spent $2500 of my total budget and the above is one of my main concerns, could I just spent a little more, and dope up my .308 hunting rifle with higher quality glass to provide some room to grow over the years, or would I eventually hit a max with the shorter 22 inch barrel, lighter gun and lightweight field "barrel"?

And at some point, would investing in a longer barrel (26-30 inch, heavy target barrel), heavier (10+ lb) gun with a heavy, accuracy focused stock be the way to go, regardless of whether it's a .223 or even .308 (and I simply need to find the time to do reloads to get my cost of ammo down).

Thanks to all for taking the time to write detailed comments to my inquiries!

Cheers,
David

[The Big D]

That particular 455 varmint would be fine. I've got the regular non-laminated walnut stock version, and my only complaint about it is that the fore end is a little more flexible than I'd like. The Manners stock is one solution, but that laminated stock would get the job done too. I don't think it was out when I bought mine, or maybe only in a hideous blue laminate color I couldn't stomach

If you need a base to let you mount tactical type rings for the 30mm scope, try https://www.diproductsinc.com/Products.aspx?CAT=4268

I don't have any input on the X-Bolt. I've never seen one in person - they're not common. In general Brownings are very good guns - I've got a 625, an 1885 high wall and an 1886 repro and all were well made. The Winchester M70 is also premium gun though - many people feel the same way about them I do - the best mass produced bolt action on the market.

You may or may not find a .308 in a medium-light rifle too recoil-heavy for bench fun. I find them OK, but recoil tolerances vary. One option is something like the new Ruger Scout that has a brake, or adding a brake to something like the Winchester.

The thing to keep in mind about a .223/5.56 is that only the inaccurate ammo is cheap. If you're trying to get satisfaction from the bench by printing small groups or hitting at long range, you'll pay at least 75% as much doing it with a .223 as with a .308. If it were me and I got a .223, I'd get one I intended to practice field shooting with rather than bench shooting. Field shooting really is harder, MUCH more fun, and cheap ammo won't hinder you much. You do need to find a place to do it though - I have no idea what the public (or private) land situation where you are is.

If you're really going to shoot some sort of open-equipment long range competition (the various "sniper" matches that have cropped up), .223 will not be very competitive. Neither for that matter will .308. The 6mm-7mm calibers I listed previously would all be in play, depending on the exact nature of the shoot.

[Mozella]

I'll say it again. I recommend starting with that CZ 22LR you have your eye on but stop buying there, at least for a while. Take it to the range with some medium priced ammo and learn to shoot it. Try some expensive ammo too. Learn the basics of bench rest precision shooting, but also try various hunting oriented positions as well.

Then go hunting for whatever small animals are appropriate for 22s in your area.

All the while, talk with everyone you meet at the range or in the field or at your local gun shop.

Chances are all the research you've done so far will form a great base for your future decisions, but it is also likely that you will NOT make the best choice if you purchase your other rifles now. It's almost guaranteed that your wishes will change, at least slightly, over time as you gain experience and familiarity with the sport of target shooting and/or hunting.

You won't be disappointed with a nice CZ 22 and my guess is that you'll keep it for a long time. As for the other rifles, hold off for now, continue your research, and make a better informed decision sometime in the future.

Archive this thread too 'cause there is lots of great advice here. But, only you can make the best choice and you are much more likely to do that after gaining experience at the lower end of the food chain.

In any case, you can't go wrong with a CZ 22LR as an entry point to shooting.

[freelansir]

Ok, The Big D, Mozella,

I think we've come to the overall conclusion of my original post =) Below is my summary, and my understanding of the reasoning behind them.

1) The CZ-455 22LR would make a solid, out of the box, accurate .22 gun to practice with... either the varmint edition, or the manners precision tactical trainer if I really want to the extra mile.

-- I think everyone here agreed, that starting with a good .22 LR gun is a good way to achieve my stated goal, of learning how to shoot, and getting the fundamentals down.

-- Personally, I don't mind investing in a good firearm and good optic, if it's helping me achieve my objective as long as there's value for money there. I also like investing in gear, that I'll still really like 10 years from now.

-- My $0.05-10 cent per shot calculation on .22 ammo probably doesn't play out for very long. If I really want any sort of accuracy, I'll need to find a more premium grade ammo which might be 2-3x more expensive, but directionally, my reasoning is sound. Learn the fundamentals with something that isn't costing $1-2 per round, and I'll get out to the range more often and can afford to put more rounds down-range

2) In terms of a possible scope for the CZ-455, The Big D was recommending to scope it up to be able to take longer range shots, with something like the SWFA SS 3-15 and also where to find decent 30 mm rings for my rimfire optic.

-- Shooting a .22 LR at 75-150 yards, is really a similar sort of challenge to shooting a heavier caliber bullet at longer yards, in terms of estimating wind, and working with your scope adjustments, understanding bullet trajectory over distance etc... so get a scope that can allow you to keep learning and improving, even on the .22

3) In terms of the hunting rifle, that Winchester Model 70 all weather, stainless looked really nice, in terms of a all round hunting gun. Based on my stated goals and objectives, a .308 caliber would be a good versatile round within 200-400 yard typical shots.

-- My reasoning and logic behind getting a .270 and then a .30-06 gun was totally off track =) Recoil differences between .270 vs .308 won't justify buying two firearms. And as someone beginning in hunting, I won't be getting out and shooting Black Bear's anytime soon, so there's no point worrying or thinking about anything larger, like .300 Win Mag at this point. Stick to one good, nice hunting gun, with a versatile caliber that I can eventually get into re-loading with, and I would be better off dollar for dollar.

-- But per Mozella, don't get anything until I've had some trigger time behind my first .22 LR rifle to find out more of what I like or dislike in a firearm before buying anything.

4) In terms of getting a .223 bench rest rifle to "learn" shooting at a smaller caliber, before jumping up to a larger, hunting caliber, my logic is completely off base.

-- For my stated goals, I could still get a normal varmint field gun and have fun shooting .223 in and around 200-300 yards with factory ammo (or perhaps longer with more premium ammo), but that the entire "bench rest .223 to learn shooting skills for hunting" was based on incorrect logic.

-- The .223 round, just really isn't designed for longer ranges... and if I don't want to hand load or buy premium match ammo (getting rid of the cost advantages of the caliber) then there's no point thinking about 600 yards, regardless of how much I want to spend on the initial gun

5) Based on the above, I think that, if I DO want to get something in the .223 caliber, I need to be working towards a totally different objective than what I had originally stated...

-- Perhaps, a better way to think about this caliber is to get a decent gun used, then do some work to it to learn the basics of fixing up. Get something used, at a low price, that has the basis of a good action/barrel... then work on building out the rest to learn to learn how to take an average shooting gun and making in into a "more" accurate gun per dollar spent.

-- If I have this sort of skills and knowledge, then I don't always need to spend high dollar on out of the box accuracy for a new gun if I do become interested in other calibers, and can feel more confident buying used guns also in the future.

6) Regardless of whether my stated goal was to NOT get into reloading for the next few years, I will NEED to get into re-loading in order to get improvements in accuracy and consistency at longer ranges, or be willing to spend more money on premium ammo, increasing my $$ / round

-- While my total cost of ownership approach to looking at guns and calibers isn't necessarily incorrect, I was doing my cost comparison's with the cheapest ammo at each caliber. This is not the right way of looking the problem, when talking about accuracy at longer ranges.

7) Once I do get into reloading, and if I do want to keep learning and improving at longer ranges, the .223 is totally inappropriate for long range shooting, and even the .308 range (although a tactical round) is also not ideal. 6-7mm calibers would be superior.

-- Ok, was thinking that it would be an advantage to re-use the .308 brass if I was re-loading, but I'll leave this one alone for now. I have plenty to work on before I'd be ready to pick a gun up for this philosophy of use.

-- Based on whether or not I do my .223 project gun or not, doing a custom build here might be fun.

8) And, last but not lease, as per Mozella, while the above (and all your comments and this entire discussion post) can act as a good foundation for future decisions, the only gun I should go out and buy right away, is that .22 LR.... save my other purchases, until I can add personal experience, preferences, and additional conversations with other shooters as inputs.

-- This was helpful Mozella. My original approach was going to be to get the .22 and .223 at the same time for a rimfire + rifle caliber gun, then hold off on the hunting guns, but based on the above, I'll do as you recommend.

------------------

Thanks all for the education on different rifles, calibers, various approaches and philosophy of uses, as per my objectives!

[fourbore]

You mention nicer guns to keep for ever and with this in mind, I have a few companies I like. I guess, I will just start with the rimfire.

For 22, my minimum, pride to own, lifetime keeper in 22 would be a CZ and the best of those is the 453 American. It has an excellent, no tinker, fully adjustable SET trigger. I dont care so much for the new 455, but they are still a lot better than some other brands mentioned. I mean mostly in the looks, but also good solid guns. I dont see any semi auto as fitting you needs. There was a source of 453's up in canada. Not a low cost as 455.

The next level up, which might fit you budget is an Anschutz. I found Cableas had the 1416 on sale for $850 in the usa. They now up to 900 or 1000. Anschutz also makes a 64 mpr, target gun. This is specifically for range and not hunting. Exactly what yoiu want. That might be the best and the gun I would have got if not for the close out sale. My mistake. You will shoot the 22 the most. Think about shooting single shot and making every round count. You should not outgrow a 64mpr, ever. And you can shoot with aperture sights and impress yourself and your friends. Or slap a scope on like everyone else.

Like everyone I have opinions, why not get the 22 for now and figure the rest out later. One gun is enough trouble. And scope or sights.

You want a reasonably good front rest and rear bag. I forget what I have. Maybe budet 200 there. A good spotting scope but with 6-18x Leupold scope with fine duplex reticle you can live with out a spotting scope for rimfire shooting. A 6-18 is versatile and even an mpr can be taken into the field and hunted. A hunting 22, wont do so well at the range.

Here is google images on mpr:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ansc...FYqQDQode58DpQ

Edit: I forgot with a good hi power scope you also need an adjustable objective so you can null out the parallax at 50 and again at 100 yards.

[fourbore]

Your needs are different from mine, but I have a CZ527 euro-varmint on order for varmint hunting. If I had the budget I would get a Sako. I dont like compromises and dismiss Tika right away. Lesson learned on my Anschutz. Short of that, I will stick with CZ where my carbine been a dream to hunt and will hold to 1 moa during sight in. Good value and I like the set trigger (same as 453). I really like the 527. You can get by fine with factory ammo.

I had given some consideration to a Savage left feed, stainless, single shot called LRPV Left Port in 223. I decided the CZ was more my speed, for now anyway. I never had a savage. The LRPV comes with a match trigger. Trigger and barrel, those are key.

For a big bore, long range gun, the latest buzz is 6.5 creedmore and I dont have a recommendation. I have not advanced to the level of serious. I dont have access to 1000 yard range either. I would seek out another forum and also meet other shooters and try their equipment. There is a lot of interest in shooting steel plates. Here is a serious hand loading game.

If you want to hunt deer on up, that is a totally different gun and a nice light 7mm-08, 6.5x55 or 7x57 in a handy carbine. Whole different deal, forget the 1000 yard stuff. Again, dont have to hand load to hunt.

If I was you, I would gt my 22 with the good scope and good rest and start shooting and enjoy the hobby. How many guns and the budget-that will all work it self out.

[Clark]

When I was a kid, every kid started with a 22 bolt action single shot economy model... which was a huge upgrade from his BB gun or pellet gun. We walked around "plinking" meaning we shot at everything in a rural setting where there was nothing to shoot at. Any animal could hear previous plinking shots and take evasive action.

Now adults seem to start with 9mm semi auto handgun going to an indoor range.

[freelansir]

Hi Fourbore,

Thanks for your reply... Does anyone have any experience with the difference between the the 455 Varmint vs the 455 Precision Trainer w/ Manners Stock?

-- How much accuracy difference are you really getting, for close to 2x the price?

I think, as my first rifle, I'm a little below the level of "needing" an Anschutz at this point, but they look like nice guns and I've heard good things about them.

-- What are the differences between the CZ-453 and the 455?? I can't find ANY 453's on the CZ website. Is there a build difference between the two models?

-- I was thinking about a nice 3-9x40mm to start with and investing in quality glass, but would you recommend a higher zoom range? You mentioned a 6-18x - for reaching out to between 100-200 yards, is that 18x extremely helpful?

Thanks for the comments all!
Dave

[AussieBloke]

CZ's are a great rifle of excellent standard. That being said so too are Anschutz.
@Clark, hear you loud n clear there mate! We all did the same, single shot .22's, mostly either Slazenger or Lithgow rifles, dead accurate and fun.

Myself, well I have a Winchester .22 Pump Action, Model 06. Its a take down, often referred to as a "gallery gun" but a true Gallery gun is chambered in .22 Short only. Mines Chambered for .22 Short, Long or Long Rifle. Its a great little bit of fun for plinking and rabbit chasing. (I live in Rural Australia, so I am lucky in that regard.)

It sounds like you really have done your research carefully and with quite a bit of thought. Bravo, It seems also that you have a very sensible head on your shoulders, I am sure you will do well.

Good Luck with your shooting.

Cheers
Bones.

[MislMan]

OP - Your stated objective of getting out to go hunting may be getting lost in discussions here. I just looked at the hunting rules for your area and found you have a tag system for all game. For 2014 about 15% of tag/hunter applicants actually received a tag to hunt (lottery type draw system employed). There also appear to be date restrictions on some game in that you need to pick your hunting dates by wildlife management area (WMA). Not to discourage you, but for your selection process you may need to nail down your exact hunting goals and requirements and use those following the tips offered already. With very limited hunting opportunities some of the accuracy comments may be out of place for your stated goals. Many hunters use off the shelf hunting ammo with great success so it's doubtful reloading would be required (I do handload). Also, depending on the hunting area you select, shot distance may be very limited or short range. This could alter your hunting rifle selection. Local gunshop should be able to help with info on hunting near you. I am somewhat surprised that you are a avid shotgunner and don't appear to take advantage of the great duck and goose hunting in your area (you only mentioned clay shooting)
I only shoot rimfire benchrest (22LR) and F-Class rifle so I have no background in hunting.

Just some thoughts to ponder. Larry S.

[fourbore]

missleman,

I used to hunt northern nh near the canadian boarder and at that time I would meet a lot of canadian hunters. That may have changed or remains an option.

op,

The 453 maybe listed under the discontinued products in the cz-usa website. It might also be found in the european cz website. In any case, for USA the 453 is discontinued. I got one a few months ago. It was a special run couple/few hundred came in usa. They all sold in a matter of days. The difference is the 455 is a swap barrel action with some machining simplification like removing the guide lug on the bolt and the 22ltr an 22mag use same bottom metal with a plastic spacer. For practical considerations no big deal. For die hard gun nuts a step down. The 453 with fixed barrel has a set trigger. The 452 and 455 have single stage triggers that can be fixed up with light springs and shims. Or again, good enough for most- as is.The 453 trigger is excellent right out of the box. On average the 453 seem to have a better finish and no reports of bad crowns. There been a recent rash of 455 with off center machined crowns. I had to pay extra $150 for a 453 over a 455 and was worth every penny, IMHO. For hunting a 2-7x is plenty of magnification. For target shooting some are using 36x! These guys are killing the flies as they land on the target at 100 yards. I am not there, but 18x is really helpful for me even at 50 yards on paper. And Leupold is a great scope. Buying a started gun is different than saying you want a gun to last a life time for your first purchase and target shoot. Shooting paper is not so much fun after a few months the other guys all shoot better than you and you look at their equipment. The CZ are really nice dual, range and field guns. I think a cz would be a keeper even if you upgrade later for specialized target shooting. You never experienced a set trigger cz or a two stage ounce anschutz trigger. Nobody needs that stuff, but it sure is nice.

Edit: I just remember some shooters dislike the setting of the set trigger. It is fully adjustable, and can be used set or unset. The two stage on the Anschutz is great, but I suppose even that will not suit everyone. And that is to light to hunt as adjusted on my gun. You can max out the adjustment, then that maybe heavy for target shooting. Or split the diff. Not all anschutz have the two stage. I know single stage triggers have a strong following too and the good ones can be adjusted light as needed.

[flashhole]

You are correct, the 453 is no longer shown on the CZ website. For what you described these would be my choices.

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-455-var...mbhole-fluted/

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-527-thu...rmint-223-rem/

http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-550-fs-...-rd-fixed-mag/