battle of the magnums?

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 12:48 PM

Just looking to see everyone's opinions between the 300 win 300 weatherby and the 300 rum. No specific purpose. Maybe a heavy barreled long range rifle.

O and from a reloaded point of view. Accuracy, heavy bullets, case life. Not generally for hunting but maybe if a shot at long range presented itself.

tahunua001 · November 2, 2012, 01:17 PM

well I own a weatherby mag and on paper it blows win mag out of the water but my gun is kindof funky... the difference between hot barrel and cold barrel is almost a ful 2 inches at 100 yards so follow up shots are goingto have a wildly different POI at range.

Doyle · November 2, 2012, 01:25 PM

You can find Win mag at most sporting good stores or even Wallyworld. The other two are pretty much going to be mail-order only (and pricey at that).

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 02:27 PM

Yeah the rifle I will have to order. But ammo will be reloaded. Thinking sps long range as it is only 600 bucks. For the weatherby mag I will have to buy an accumark at almost three times that price.

O by the way it will be a heavy barreled gun.

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 02:49 PM

300 Win Mag.

There isn't enough advantage from the other two to justify the higher cost of brass, extra powder, and decreased barrel life, at least in my opinion.

Jimro

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 03:21 PM

Another question is once the barrel is shot out and I replace it. Are the case head dimensions the same for the win and the rum?

I mean can I use the same bolt for the win even though the rum is longer if I replace the barrel?

FrankenMauser · November 2, 2012, 03:26 PM

They all do the same job, and are within about 100 fps of each other; but two of them are more for "bragging rights" or reproductive organ compensation:

.300 RUM - expensive ammo; expensive brass; unnecessary recoil, muzzle blast, and erosion. A very inefficient cartridge.

.300 Weatherby - expensive ammo; moderately expensive brass; ridiculous recoil, muzzle blast, and erosion. An incredibly inefficient cartridge.

.300 Win Mag - affordable ammo; affordable brass; tolerable recoil and muzzle blast; less erosion. Inefficient, but justifiable.

The .300 Win Mag is the reasonable limit of .30 caliber cartridges.
It's like the Bugatti Veyron....
The original version only used 266 hp to reach 155 mph, but requires another 721 HP to reach 253 mph. (for 987 hp)
The SuperSport model has 1,200 hp, but that only increases top speed to 267 mph.
The newest model, the SuperVeyron, requires an additional 400 hp for a measly 21 mph increase in top speed (for 288 mph and 1,600 hp).

The .300 Weatherby and .300 RUM are the "SuperSport" and "SuperVeyron". They have to increase chamber pressure and powder charge significantly, to barely surpass the .300 Win Mag's ballistics. To me, the impact on my wallet and barrel life (another hit to the wallet), just aren't worth it.

FrankenMauser · November 2, 2012, 03:32 PM

All three cartridges should work with the same bolt face opening.
Whether or not you would need to do some work to the rifle to get them to feed from the magazine, would be a different consideration. (Especially for the .300 RUM, since it's based on .404 Jeffery and has a larger body.)

jmr40 · November 2, 2012, 03:43 PM

If I already owned any of them I pobably wouldn't trade one for another. But if buying new I'd go 300 WSM. The Weatherby and Remington magnums offer a slight advantage in energy at extended ranges, but most people aren't good enough to really take advantage of any of them. I know I'm not.

The WSM gives 98-99% of the 300 Win mags performance, but can be chambered in a smaller, lighter package, and has a little less recoil. It works well with shorter barrels and is proving to be the most accurate of the bunch. 300 WM performance, in a 308 sized package, match grade accuracy, with hot 30-06 recoil is pretty appealing.

At this point ammo is just as easy to find as 300 WM ammo and it is now pretty much the same price.

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Another question is once the barrel is shot out and I replace it. Are the case head dimensions the same for the win and the rum?

I mean can I use the same bolt for the win even though the rum is longer if I replace the barrel?

The rim diameters of the 300 Rum is only 0.002 larger than the 300 Win Mag, so the standard magnum bolt face of 0.540 no modification is needed. I don't see any difference in the bolt faces offered by Remington between the two.

Jimro

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 04:17 PM

Thanks jimro I thought that was the case but wasn't certain.

And just to add the rum will push a 150 grain past 3500. But that is at maximum published loads. With retumbo.

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 05:58 PM

If you are going for distance you won't be using 150 grain bullets.

Look at 190gr HPBTs and heavier.

Jimro

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 06:37 PM

Yeah I know about the 150 for distance I was just giving an example for some one earlier in this post who said that the two bigger of the magnums use a tremendous amount of powder (agreed!) For a very slight gain in performance. Correct me if I am wrong but we are not talking about cars we are talking about bullets. And the same rule applies a small increase in velocity with identical projectile won't yield an incredible difference in energy. But with a 200 fps difference plus the energy from said projectile will increase significantly.

Example according to hodgdon a 300 win mag with a max load of 84 Grains of retumbo and a 200 grain accubond their velocity is 2962 And muzzle energy of 3900 ftlbs. And your retained energy should be around 2200 at 500 yards. Also according to hodgdon same bullet and powder for the rum at 95 grains for a muzzle velocity of 3096 with muzzle energy of 4200 and retained energy of 2442 at 500 yards. Maybe i am wrong but an extra 200 ftlbs of energy is alot.

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 06:42 PM

Do I need it? No but I don't need a 300 win mag either. But for strictly a long range gun and for fun!! I kinda like the idea of the rum. Plus I really like the fact that the rum has no belt and I already have dies for it. And for precision I will not have to worry about in front of the belt.

Old Grump · November 2, 2012, 07:14 PM

Have my Weatherby 300, I use 180 gr bullets. If I have to reach out and thump something I want it to get good and thumped. But like tahunua001 said, after 3 shots the group starts going to ... well it gets bigger. Still you gotta love a gun when you don't have to shoot something twice very often and it doesn't make any difference if its 200 or 400 yards.

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 07:25 PM

I like the way you think. A 270 with good bullets will kill elk no problem at most ranges but at any range the rum will impact with a thousand pounds more energy.

I think the weatherby and Remington magnums are a little much for deer but that's what my 270 is for.

Old Grump · November 2, 2012, 08:59 PM

Deer guns if I am on a stand is a single shot .308, walking in woods my Win 94 32 spcl. I have actually taken more deer with my .357 mag but I was a whole bunch younger then.

langenc · November 2, 2012, 09:50 PM

Would have been interesting to see Frankenmauser include the 300 WSM up in post #7 and hoe it would have compared to the other three cartridges.

I suspect there will be screams that it (300 WSM) is not a 'magnum' of the same stripes as the other three listed.

Certainly dont use quite so much powder, barrel burning??, recoil is much less whgich results in less flinching and better accuracy and more practice with that rifle.

barnbwt · November 2, 2012, 09:55 PM

Quote:

The newest model, the SuperVeyron, requires an additional 400 hp for a measly 21 mph increase in top speed (for 288 mph and 1,600 hp).

What are the terminal ballistics on that, would you say?

3527 pounds = 24,689,000 grains
@ 288 mph = 422.4 ft/s

Momentum = 1,489,804.8 ft-lbm
Energy = 6,292,935,427.52 lbm-ft^2/s

Sounds like the ultimate big game thumper to me! (Please correct my math if you really feel like it

)

TCB

kilotanker22 · November 2, 2012, 10:34 PM

Very interesting. I like your math. I guess the rifle really doesn't compare to the car. Except that the rifle does not cost 2.5 million dollars.

In another note I did not include the 300 wsm for the fact that you begin to sacrifice performance with the 200 grain bullets and the rifle I really want I can no longer find in 300 wsm.

Jimro · November 2, 2012, 11:10 PM

kilotanker,

Quote:

Example according to hodgdon a 300 win mag with a max load of 84 Grains of retumbo and a 200 grain accubond their velocity is 2962 And muzzle energy of 3900 ftlbs. And your retained energy should be around 2200 at 500 yards. Also according to hodgdon same bullet and powder for the rum at 95 grains for a muzzle velocity of 3096 with muzzle energy of 4200 and retained energy of 2442 at 500 yards. Maybe i am wrong but an extra 200 ftlbs of energy is alot.

The animal won't know the difference. That is less than 10% more energy retained for over 10% more powder used. The problem with the big magnums is that you run into the point of diminishing returns where incremental increases are just that, incremental.

And where ballistics are concerned, incremental increases are functionally meaningless. As bullet mass increases (something that you will lean towards for long range shooting) the differences get smaller.

300 Win Mag, 220 gr projectile, 2810 fps. 81 gr Retumbo
300 RUM, 220 gr projectile, 2905. 101.5 gr Retumbo

So is the extra 20.5 grains of powder (which is 25% over the Win Mag) worth 95 fps? That depends on your priorities and your wallet I guess.

That extra 95 fps isn't going to turn a miss into a hit for you, you still have to know your dope and have a good wind call.

Jimro

FrankenMauser · November 3, 2012, 01:11 AM

Jimro just addressed energy from one point of view.

Quote:

Maybe i am wrong but an extra 200 ftlbs of energy is alot.

Here's another way to look at it:

.22 WMR
30 gr bullet
2200 fps
50 yards

That's what 200 ft-lb gets you.
(Hornady 30 gr V-Max factory load)

It retains 201 ft-lb of energy at 50 yards.

But, as long as we're talking about a "rifle without a purpose" ... energy may not matter, at all.

warbirdlover · November 3, 2012, 02:09 AM

.300 Win Mag. Cheaper ammo. Great results almost as good as the others. Not as sore of a shoulder.

.300 Weatherby Mag · November 3, 2012, 02:56 AM

Quote:

The other two are pretty much going to be mail-order only (and pricey at that).

In Elk country, .300 Weatherby ammunition is easy to come by... A friend of mine just dropped a 340 class Bull at 447 yards with one shot with his .300 Weatherby loaded with a 180 grain partition... In the Thoroughfare in Wyoming, more power is better if you can place the shot...

Lloyd Smale · November 3, 2012, 05:42 AM

ive never owned a 300 ultra but have had a few of each of 300 wins and 300 wbys. I have two of each right now. Personaly I prefer the wby. Ive shot a bunch of deer with both and out past 300 yards the wby has just seemed to be a quicker killer for me. I know you can post ballistics that show there isnt much differnce and maybe it was just coincidence but ive shot enough deer with both to get that feeling and its enough to make me prefer the wby. As to recoil a pound differnce in rifle weigth will make a 300 win kick just as much as a wby. If you can shoot a win mag you certainly arent going to run and hide from a wby. I kind of get a charge out of guys who allways come and say a 308 is so close to an 06 that theres no differnce or a 06 is so close to a 300 mag or like in this case a 300 win is so close to a 300wby. Well heres the truth. put a deer in front of any of those rifles at 200 yards and place your bullet right and youll be eating venison. But theres no doubt in this guys mind that an o6 hits with more athourity then a 308 and a 300 wby hits with more athourity then a 300 win. At least for anyone that handloads and can load ammo at realistic pressures. Now if your stuck with factory ammo the gap can close as some of it is loaded to rediculously low pressure.

November 2, 2012, 12:48 PM	#1
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	battle of the magnums? Just looking to see everyone's opinions between the 300 win 300 weatherby and the 300 rum. No specific purpose. Maybe a heavy barreled long range rifle. O and from a reloaded point of view. Accuracy, heavy bullets, case life. Not generally for hunting but maybe if a shot at long range presented itself.

November 2, 2012, 01:17 PM	#2
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	well I own a weatherby mag and on paper it blows win mag out of the water but my gun is kindof funky... the difference between hot barrel and cold barrel is almost a ful 2 inches at 100 yards so follow up shots are goingto have a wildly different POI at range. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

November 2, 2012, 02:49 PM	#5
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	300 Win Mag. There isn't enough advantage from the other two to justify the higher cost of brass, extra powder, and decreased barrel life, at least in my opinion. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 2, 2012, 03:21 PM	#6
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	jimro Another question is once the barrel is shot out and I replace it. Are the case head dimensions the same for the win and the rum? I mean can I use the same bolt for the win even though the rum is longer if I replace the barrel?

November 2, 2012, 03:32 PM	#8
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	All three cartridges should work with the same bolt face opening. Whether or not you would need to do some work to the rifle to get them to feed from the magazine, would be a different consideration. (Especially for the .300 RUM, since it's based on .404 Jeffery and has a larger body.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

November 2, 2012, 01:25 PM	#3
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	You can find Win mag at most sporting good stores or even Wallyworld. The other two are pretty much going to be mail-order only (and pricey at that).

November 2, 2012, 02:27 PM	#4
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	Yeah the rifle I will have to order. But ammo will be reloaded. Thinking sps long range as it is only 600 bucks. For the weatherby mag I will have to buy an accumark at almost three times that price. O by the way it will be a heavy barreled gun.

November 2, 2012, 03:26 PM	#7
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	They all do the same job, and are within about 100 fps of each other; but two of them are more for "bragging rights" or reproductive organ compensation: .300 RUM - expensive ammo; expensive brass; unnecessary recoil, muzzle blast, and erosion. A very inefficient cartridge. .300 Weatherby - expensive ammo; moderately expensive brass; ridiculous recoil, muzzle blast, and erosion. An incredibly inefficient cartridge. .300 Win Mag - affordable ammo; affordable brass; tolerable recoil and muzzle blast; less erosion. Inefficient, but justifiable. The .300 Win Mag is the reasonable limit of .30 caliber cartridges. It's like the Bugatti Veyron.... The original version only used 266 hp to reach 155 mph, but requires another 721 HP to reach 253 mph. (for 987 hp) The SuperSport model has 1,200 hp, but that only increases top speed to 267 mph. The newest model, the SuperVeyron, requires an additional 400 hp for a measly 21 mph increase in top speed (for 288 mph and 1,600 hp). The .300 Weatherby and .300 RUM are the "SuperSport" and "SuperVeyron". They have to increase chamber pressure and powder charge significantly, to barely surpass the .300 Win Mag's ballistics. To me, the impact on my wallet and barrel life (another hit to the wallet), just aren't worth it. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

November 2, 2012, 03:43 PM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	If I already owned any of them I pobably wouldn't trade one for another. But if buying new I'd go 300 WSM. The Weatherby and Remington magnums offer a slight advantage in energy at extended ranges, but most people aren't good enough to really take advantage of any of them. I know I'm not. The WSM gives 98-99% of the 300 Win mags performance, but can be chambered in a smaller, lighter package, and has a little less recoil. It works well with shorter barrels and is proving to be the most accurate of the bunch. 300 WM performance, in a 308 sized package, match grade accuracy, with hot 30-06 recoil is pretty appealing. At this point ammo is just as easy to find as 300 WM ammo and it is now pretty much the same price.

November 2, 2012, 04:17 PM	#11
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	Thanks jimro I thought that was the case but wasn't certain. And just to add the rum will push a 150 grain past 3500. But that is at maximum published loads. With retumbo.

November 2, 2012, 05:58 PM	#12
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	If you are going for distance you won't be using 150 grain bullets. Look at 190gr HPBTs and heavier. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

November 2, 2012, 06:37 PM	#13
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	jimro Yeah I know about the 150 for distance I was just giving an example for some one earlier in this post who said that the two bigger of the magnums use a tremendous amount of powder (agreed!) For a very slight gain in performance. Correct me if I am wrong but we are not talking about cars we are talking about bullets. And the same rule applies a small increase in velocity with identical projectile won't yield an incredible difference in energy. But with a 200 fps difference plus the energy from said projectile will increase significantly. Example according to hodgdon a 300 win mag with a max load of 84 Grains of retumbo and a 200 grain accubond their velocity is 2962 And muzzle energy of 3900 ftlbs. And your retained energy should be around 2200 at 500 yards. Also according to hodgdon same bullet and powder for the rum at 95 grains for a muzzle velocity of 3096 with muzzle energy of 4200 and retained energy of 2442 at 500 yards. Maybe i am wrong but an extra 200 ftlbs of energy is alot.

November 2, 2012, 06:42 PM	#14
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	Do I need it? No but I don't need a 300 win mag either. But for strictly a long range gun and for fun!! I kinda like the idea of the rum. Plus I really like the fact that the rum has no belt and I already have dies for it. And for precision I will not have to worry about in front of the belt.

November 2, 2012, 07:14 PM	#15
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Have my Weatherby 300, I use 180 gr bullets. If I have to reach out and thump something I want it to get good and thumped. But like tahunua001 said, after 3 shots the group starts going to ... well it gets bigger. Still you gotta love a gun when you don't have to shoot something twice very often and it doesn't make any difference if its 200 or 400 yards. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

November 2, 2012, 07:25 PM	#16
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	old grump I like the way you think. A 270 with good bullets will kill elk no problem at most ranges but at any range the rum will impact with a thousand pounds more energy. I think the weatherby and Remington magnums are a little much for deer but that's what my 270 is for.

November 2, 2012, 08:59 PM	#17
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Deer guns if I am on a stand is a single shot .308, walking in woods my Win 94 32 spcl. I have actually taken more deer with my .357 mag but I was a whole bunch younger then. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

November 2, 2012, 09:50 PM	#18
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	Would have been interesting to see Frankenmauser include the 300 WSM up in post #7 and hoe it would have compared to the other three cartridges. I suspect there will be screams that it (300 WSM) is not a 'magnum' of the same stripes as the other three listed. Certainly dont use quite so much powder, barrel burning??, recoil is much less whgich results in less flinching and better accuracy and more practice with that rifle.

November 2, 2012, 10:34 PM	#20
kilotanker22 Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2012 Location: North Central, PA Posts: 2,117	barnbwt Very interesting. I like your math. I guess the rifle really doesn't compare to the car. Except that the rifle does not cost 2.5 million dollars. In another note I did not include the 300 wsm for the fact that you begin to sacrifice performance with the 200 grain bullets and the rifle I really want I can no longer find in 300 wsm.

November 3, 2012, 02:09 AM	#23
warbirdlover Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2009 Location: central Wisconsin Posts: 2,324	.300 Win Mag. Cheaper ammo. Great results almost as good as the others. Not as sore of a shoulder.

November 3, 2012, 05:42 AM	#25
Lloyd Smale Junior member Join Date: February 11, 2005 Posts: 822	ive never owned a 300 ultra but have had a few of each of 300 wins and 300 wbys. I have two of each right now. Personaly I prefer the wby. Ive shot a bunch of deer with both and out past 300 yards the wby has just seemed to be a quicker killer for me. I know you can post ballistics that show there isnt much differnce and maybe it was just coincidence but ive shot enough deer with both to get that feeling and its enough to make me prefer the wby. As to recoil a pound differnce in rifle weigth will make a 300 win kick just as much as a wby. If you can shoot a win mag you certainly arent going to run and hide from a wby. I kind of get a charge out of guys who allways come and say a 308 is so close to an 06 that theres no differnce or a 06 is so close to a 300 mag or like in this case a 300 win is so close to a 300wby. Well heres the truth. put a deer in front of any of those rifles at 200 yards and place your bullet right and youll be eating venison. But theres no doubt in this guys mind that an o6 hits with more athourity then a 308 and a 300 wby hits with more athourity then a 300 win. At least for anyone that handloads and can load ammo at realistic pressures. Now if your stuck with factory ammo the gap can close as some of it is loaded to rediculously low pressure.