Short O/U Good for Trap/Skeet?

[jephthai]

I would like my next purchase to be a shotgun. I've thought about a Maverick for "home defense", but I have the 357 already, and feel relatively well-trained up on that. I'd *really* like to try getting into shotgun sports -- trap, skeet, and sporting clays -- and that's not really what the pump is for, right?

Plus, the other motivation is that my wife has a strong desire to try it as well. I don't want to make a bone-headed decision on a one-size-fits-all purchase that doesn't work out!

I was looking at the Condor from Stoeger (I have a small budget). I've read about how the Outback is reputed to be "more versatile", e.g. for camping, fits better in the car, etc. It's only got 20" barrels. Would that be too significant a handicap for shotgun sports? Should I just get the Condor and get a "utility shotgun" later down the line if I decide I need one?

Any reason (other than recommending shotguns that cost 3x as much) I shouldn't get the Condor?

-Jephthai-

[David Berkowitz]

Keep in mind that 1. You ARE looking for one gun for trap, skeet, and sporintg clays so this will be a one size fits all and 2. with your budget, you will be making compromises. That said, there's nothing wrong with this approach as long as you know what it is.
The condor is serviceable for what you want. It is a field gun that goes bang. In the standard Condor, the longest barrel you can get is 28". Don't go shorter. Better is the condor competition at 30".
Don't rush into this decision. While the Stoeger is OK, there are many other entry level O/U for you to look at. It's late and I can't think of the names, but Verona comes quickly to mind. I know there are more. Go by fit & feel. None of these in this price line are going to be heirlooms, but some are really quite nice.

[zippy13]

...It's only got 20" barrels. Would that be too significant a handicap for shotgun sports?

Yep, way too short.

Sounds like you're new to shotgunning. You wouldn't expect to use just one gun to shoot three disciplines with a rifle or pistol, why consider it with a shotgun? Do you have one racket for tennis, badminton and racket ball? One gun for trap, skeet and SC is going to be a compromise. A jack of all trades is master of none.

IMHO, become proficient in one shogun sport before you try to do everything. There are too many skills involved to learn them all at once, unless all you want to do is shoot holes in the sky. I recommend starting with trap to develop your introductory shotgun skills. Then try trap doubles or another game that involves crossing shots. I've watched as newbies quit in frustration from trying to learn to shoot a shotgun on a skeet field. The game wasn't designed for teaching shotgun introduction, but to fine tune existing skills.

Any reason (other than recommending shotguns that cost 3x as much) I shouldn't get the Condor?

Read several on-line reviews and draw your own conclusions about its durability. Remember, a target gun sees a lot more shells than a field gun. You get what you pay for.

There will always be hole-in-the-sky shooters (you know who you are), who will tell you, "I just got a new Whizbang-Super-Deluxe dirt cheap, and it's the perfect gun for trap, skeet, SC and all hunting conditions -- you should get a Whizbang-Super-Deluxe, too." Misery loves company.

[jephthai]

Thanks for the comments. It is with trepidation that I suggest such things -- but you pegged it: I am new to the shotgun sports. My grandfather was an avid shotgunner, but I wasn't big enough for him to teach me (somehow, I was big enough for rifles and pistols, though ;-).

Anyway, if the Condor (or equivalent introductory O/U) will be an adequate introduction to *try* the various shotgun sports, I'll be happy with that. If I end up choosing a particular sport for which the Condor is inadequate, I can channel a future purchase in a better direction.

I'll have to take the "length matters" idea on faith though. You guys do know a lot more than me about these things, and I don't want to "shoot myself in the foot" just because I want to lay it one way in my trunk instead of the other.

Thanks so far!

-Jephthai-

[A/C Guy]

What no one has mentioned is that there is no way to see if a shotgun fits you without shooting it. A shotgun has no rear sight and you actually do not aim it; rather, you point it. Your eye is the rear sight. So if the stock does not fit you exactly, then your eye is too high, or too low, or too far left or right. There is no way you can tell in the store. Go to a trap or skeet club and ask for help in fitting and selecting a shotgun. Odds are what ever gun you pick off the shelf will not fit you properly unless you ask for help first. I have 4 shotguns. All different makes from <$500 to over $1500. None of them shoot to the point of aim with the original stock. There was over an 18" difference with one of them at 25 yards. Buying a shotgun is very similar to buying a tuxedo, it will need alterations to make it fit you properly.

[zippy13]

Too bad you weren't able to shoot with your grandfather. Perhaps, in his wisdom, he didn't feel qualified to teach shotgun, but was comfortable with pistol and rifle.

If you read between the lines, in numerous postings similar to yours, there seems to be a common thread: A gun fancier, familiar with rifle and/or pistol shooting finds himself at a gun club that offers one or more of the shotgun sports. It's like going to Disneyland for the first time, it's all very exciting, but which ride to select first? However, at Disneyland you don't need any special gear.

That's the dilemma common to all newbies... He wants to try all of these sports, but doesn't have the equipment. And, he's loath to spend thousands of dollars getting specialized equipment for a sport he might not really get into. So, the common question is, how to get an introduction without an unnecessary investment. My club has loaner shotguns available. Other clubs may charge for gun rental. (This may not be widely advertised for security reasons -- ask at the club)

Most potential shooters, like you, jump to the conclusion that they can get one gun to for all of the sports. As I previously mentioned, one gun will always be a compromise between the different requirements of the various shotgun sports. However, as a new shooter, there's no way for you to know this up front unless you ask. This is one of the real benefits of an on-line forum like this, there are many experienced shooters willing to share their experiences. You'll also find that gun club shooters are much the same, and are eager to introduce their sport to new shooters. It helps if you're shooting and showing a desire to learn. If they think you're genuinely interested, many folks will loan a gun for a round or two. If you post your location, you may get a PM with the name of a local club contact.

I'd *really* like to try getting into shotgun sports -- trap, skeet, and sporting clays -- and that's not really what the pump is for, right?

Not necessarily true. Many winning tournament scores have been shot with a pump. It's an ideal choice for shooting trap singles. You can shoot doubles with a pump, and many do, but you'll be at a disadvantage. This doesn't mean a Rambo wanna be tactical pump gun with a detached pistol grip and extended magazine is a reasonable choice. However, you won't go wrong with a properly fit Remington 870 Wingmaster Trap gun. With screw-in chokes, the gun has the versatility to shoot trap singles, handicap, doubles and some clays. Switch to a shorter barrel, and your ready for skeet and close crossing clays. You'll have a lot of fun with this gun, and you can proudly pass it down to your grandson.
With experience, you'll learn the pump's limitations in specific shotgun sports. If you want to go into the competitive side of one of the shotgun sports, you'll have the knowledge necessary to select a gun, specific to that sport, that will help you fully develop your skills.

[jephthai]

Thanks Zippy, for all that information. I am in Urbana, IL -- and there don't seem to be too many shooting locations around. I've found decent spots for rifle and handgun, but I'll have to scout for the shotgun options where I might be able to rent.

Might have to go to Bloomington to find something like that. But it would probably be worth it instead of a mistaken multi-hundred dollar purchase!

Again, thanks everyone.

-Jephthai-

[FALshootist]

This type of question comes up all the time. The real answer is this. If you don't plan on competing in a specific sport (trap, skeet, sporting clays) and just want to have fun or improve your shotgun skills for hunting, you DO NOT NEED A GAME SPECIFIC EXPENSIVE SHOTGUN.

I like a good many folks, shoot with real guns i.e. field guns. The two most common I use are an old 870 Remington, for which I have a 21 in barrel and a 30 inch. I use the 30 for trap etc. The other gun is an old Beretta over/under I bought used. It has fixed chokes and a non selective trigger, so it always shoots the lower, full choke barrel, first.

I usually shoot I the low 20's and have gone 25 for 25 with these guns.

The Remingtons (870 and 1100 or 11-87) can be had realatively cheap. Are very versitle because of their quick change barrel design, plus there are a zillion used remington barrels in every length and choke configuration you could ask for.

One of the reason the Remingtons have been so popular over the years is they point very well for almost everyone and they work well. It a pretty safe bet that a reminting 870 wingmaster will still be working long after an inexpensive o/u has turned into a wall hanger.

[BigJimP]

Like another responder told you - fit is the key - and you can't tell if a gun fits by shouldering it in a store. You have to shoot the gun at a pattern board.

Before you buy a gun - go to a trap and skeet club - talk to some of the shooters - maybe even take a lesson. I think skeet is a perfect game to learn on - but you don't learn by just walking on field at station 1 and blazing away. You need to look at some books, maybe DVD's, start with instruction on station 7, then 6,5 etc and get the concepts of lead, follow thru, etc.

My personal preference for an all around gun is a 28" barrel on a pump, semi-auto and 30" on an Over Under. A 28" semiauto will be about the same overall length as a 30" Over Under.

In general - a good semi-auto , probably a gas operated gun, like a used Beretta 390 or 391 will probably fit your budget and be a gun that both you and your wife could shoot at skeet or sporting clays - and some trap. Make sure it has screw in changeable chokes. You should be able to pick up a good and clean used Beretta $500 - $750.

[famine]

I just got into trap shooting earlier this year, I've seen a lot of 870's out there and they are fine for trap, they tend to kick a bit more than semi-autos but with trap loads this generally isn't too big of a problem and you don't have to chase down your empties Another way to go would be remington 1100, I was looking at one about a year ago for under $500 new. Its a semi auto that takes 2 3/4" shells. The biggest "downfall" of this is that it is set for 2 3/4 not 3" or 3 1/2" that are commonly used for turkey and geese. Truth be told though with the proper loads you could use it for these purposes also if you ever wanted to try them out.

[screenerglenn]

earlier posts have benn correct in my opinion re: talking to other shooters at a skeet and trap fields. my introduction to trap was juist one year ago and i started with an entry level o/u. big mistake, a cheap gun is just that, cheap. i purchased a used browning bt- 99 and have not regretted it. after one year and some help from the guys at the range i am now shooting at 91 1/2 %. a trap gun is a "real gun" and will make the sport more enjoyable, at least for trap. skeet and sporting clays is another story. starting with trap as earlier suggested is a great idea. good luck, glenn

[Russ5924]

If I could only have one shotgun it would be a Remington 1100 with 28 inch barrel and choke tubes would be good for about anything you want to use it for Years ago I bought a Stoger shotgun I fired it twice and has sat in the closet since:barf: Just remember you get what you pay for

[oneounceload]

You also mentioned your wife wants to get into this - unless she is right about the same size as you, what fits you will probably not fit her, and fit is everything to prevent getting beat up and actually hitting what you're pointing at

go to a club and try various types - autos, O/U, etc. - see what YOU feel good with and what your wife feels good with....if you are going to get into the shotgun sports, target guns get shot... A LOT....cheap guns, especially OU's do not hold up under that use and you'll spend more time and money getting it fixed than shooting it...better to buy a nice, well-made used gun than a cheaply-made new one

[perazzimx14]

Unfortunatly one shotgun will not workwell for all shotgun sports. Each different shotgun sport has different need in stock configuration and barrel length.

DO NOT I repeat DO NOT let your wife shoot a short light gun!!!!! It will beat the **** out of her and she will hate the sport. Get the heaviest gun she can handle and have her shoot very light loads.

This will pay off in the long run. If she likes the sport and/or sports she will be less likely to be upset of your future purchases like guns, shells, vests etc...

Gun are like tools, yes a walmart wrench will preform a given task but a Snap-on wrench will preform the same task "with style" repeatedly for years and years then you pass it down to your children and they use it for years and years and so on. A quality shoutgun like a Remington Wingmaster will last 500,000 to 1,000,000 shots with very little in maint costs.

[zippy13]

Originally Posted by screenerglenn

earlier posts have benn correct in my opinion re: talking to other shooters at a skeet and trap fields. my introduction to trap was juist one year ago and i started with an entry level o/u. big mistake, a cheap gun is just that, cheap. i purchased a used browning bt- 99 and have not regretted it. after one year and some help from the guys at the range i am now shooting at 91 1/2 %. a trap gun is a "real gun" and will make the sport more enjoyable, at least for trap. skeet and sporting clays is another story. starting with trap as earlier suggested is a great idea. good luck, glenn

Ah, the voice of reason. There are many trap shooters with BT-99's out there. The typical progression is: field gun, an intro target gun and then a good one. Your mistake gun gave you the experience necessary to determine what gun was best for developing your abilities. Sadly, some of those with no experience beyond field guns feel compelled to opine on target guns. As I said earlier: There will always be hole-in-the-sky shooters (you know who you are), who will tell you, "I just got a new Whizbang-Super-Deluxe dirt cheap, and it's the perfect gun for trap, skeet, SC and all hunting conditions -- you should get a Whizbang-Super-Deluxe, too."
Years ago, mainly in the interest of club unity, I added ATA trap to my NSSA skeet shooting. I had some Perazzi skeet guns, but no trap guns. One of the club members mentioned that he'd won a Remington 1100 Tournament Trap in a raffle, it had never been shot, and did I want it at cost. So, I started shooting trap with my new gun. Another member commented that I wouldn't be happy with the 1100 because it was pretty finicky compared to what I was used to shooting. Sure enough, before I finished my next 100 targets something broke on the 1100. Before the season was over, I got an Italian trap combo.

[FALshootist]

Sadly, some of those with no experience beyond field guns feel compelled to opine on target guns.

There is nothing wrong with target guns, but there is also no need to have a target gun price scare a new guy away from a sport that they can do well at and have a great time using a field gun.

A field gun can easily be sold if they decide the game is not for them. In many cases people just want an inexpensive good time with out rising to the level of competition that the purchase of a dedicated gun entails.

I'm not a fan of cheap O/U guns (although my son's CZ has been an excellent performer). And I still stand behind my recomendation of a remington 870. In my previous post I neglected to mention there are also a zillion used stocks in every configuration out there. The 870 can be made to play any game well for a relatively low dollar amount.

[zippy13]

FLAshootist

There is nothing wrong with target guns, but there is also no need to have a target gun price scare a new guy away from a sport that they can do well at and have a great time using a field gun.

...In many cases people just want an inexpensive good time with out rising to the level of competition that the purchase of a dedicated gun entails.

...And I still stand behind my recomendation of a remington 870. In my previous post I neglected to mention there are also a zillion used stocks in every configuration out there. The 870 can be made to play any game well for a relatively low dollar amount.

If you follow this thread to before your first recommendation of an 870, you'll see that I recommended an 870, also.
Where we differ is in semantics: I specifically recommended a 870 Wingmaster Trap. This is not some elitist top dollar gun, it's an 870 configured by Remington for trap shooting. Yes, it's a few dollars more than a field grade 870 Wingmaser, and to me this is a target gun. Those who's experience is limited to an 870 field gun are clueless how just a few changes can make a drastic difference in a gun's performance.
In my specific case, the 1100-Trap gun was figuratively and literally too light weight for my shooting style. Add to that, I have cases and cases of un-resized 12ga reloads, you can understand why I went to a new hinge gun for trap. With screw in chokes, a second shorter barrel and sized/new shells, the ol' 1100-Trap will hold it own in a variety of situations.

[zombie0hour]

Remmington has a new line of shotguns called "Spartan" which run from about $150 for double barreled which is wow cheap-o. Look into that.

[screenerglenn]

my main gun is a bt-99 but i never go to the range without my 870 wingmaster trap. if i need a back-up it will never let me down, i can shoot easily 22-25 with it. earlier post is right, it's a great gun. breakin'birds, glenn

[Stetson 33]

You can set the stoeger up so you can use for both games.For trap ,I put two extra full rem chokes on mine.You could reach out and touch the targets
a good 45 -50 yards no problem. For skeet, improved modified and modified.
I am not saying this will be a perfect one gun set up but it will do for a guy just starting out to see if he will like the sports.I fell upon this by accident
when my son wanted to take up trap shooting. Two o/u in one house has
a way of putting a crimp in your shooting budget so we improvised and he
beat men with 12 to 15 thousand shotguns.

[zippy13]

Stetson 33

You can set the stoeger up so you can use for both games...
For skeet, improved modified and modified.

IMHO, you'll be happier if you use skeet and skeet chokes.

[auto45]

For all around clay target sports, the best bet is a 12 gauge auto like a used Remington 1100, just as an example.


But, I'd try as many guns as possible before you buy.