Defensive bullets...new choices.

Steve Smith · March 29, 2002, 01:09 PM

Bridging the gap between Handgun forum stuff and Reloading stuff:

There are some new choices out there...I wonder if we should start looking in the direction of the Cor-Bon Powr-Ball bullet, or the EFMJ? Both would be great feeding designs. That is of primary consideration for a defensive gun, and we all know several defensive instructors recommend FMJ. The two I listed would feed like FMJ but may still expand well. Any word from test labs yet?

Tol · March 29, 2002, 01:48 PM

This is the least specific answer I've ever given to a question.

Last night a guy I work with showed me his new issue ammo in .40. It is made by Federal but isn't the hydra-shok. It was similar but with no center post. The side cuts were very deep. He said that they were told that it is supposed to perform like the old black talons.

I'm kind of curious what it is, and whether I can buy the bullets to load.

I've always used the hydra-shok but would be quite open to suggestion.

Tol

Chemistry · March 29, 2002, 03:40 PM

The bullet you are referring to is the "Hi-Shok" bullet. Some folks claim that it actually expands more reliably than the Hydrashok because of the lack of the lead post, while others say it's garbage.

I wouldn't know either way, since Federal bullets are just too darn expensive.

The Federal EFMJ has done quite well. I don't know of a single place that sells the bullet used in the EMFJ cartridge, though.

As for defensive bullets that give you reliable feeding, I'd suggest taking a long hard look at Remington's Classic JHP, not their Golden Saber. The classic JHP has a very conservative profile that closely resembles ball ammo.

Steve Smith · March 29, 2002, 04:33 PM

Well, not only does the FMJ provide reliable feeding, but a FMJ styled expanding bullet wouldn't plug going through clothing. That's the single most problematic thing about HP's these days. Since very few folks are attackedby naked people, it seems like having a bullet that will perform through clothing is a serious consideration. All my guns feed HPs and SWCs just fine...I'm just trying to optomize.

labgrade · March 29, 2002, 05:54 PM

Optomizing is a good thing, IMHO.

First thing, as mentioned, is it must feed reliably & accuracy would be second bet. Gotta be able to shoot it & hit what you aim at - the prerequisites.

Although I was quite satisfied with the old (circa 1970's) Rem .44 240 JHP, I'm way still up for newer & better. I'm thinking we've now reached the point where we have optimim penetration & expansion with today's handgun bullets (at their velocities) & how better can they be?

Face it. A (defensive) handgun doesn't give us hydrostatic shock, even the "lowly" 9MM has bullets that expand & penetrate to 12-14" (granted, there's plugging & the like here & there which what? only provide for more penetration) & handgun bullets kill/stop just like an arrow does = by hemoraging (unless a CNS or actual skeletal breakdown) .... & that takes some amount of time.

(As an aside, I recently participated in a kosher kill of 3X goats/sheep for Passover. "Throats cut" (caratoid, too) & these critters were dead on the spot within 1 minute - maybe a tad less. Way too long for SD purposes, but the fact remains = other than a CNS hit, the blood pressure must be lowered to such an extent that the "subject" loses conscienceness = stops the threat.)

Rackin' my brain to invision what could be a better handgun bullet for SD, but can't for the life of me figure out what it could possibly be.

Hope to be proven wrong - & sooner the better.

Steve Smith · March 29, 2002, 06:14 PM

Remember, Labgrade, we're talking about eliminating the "plugging" problem. That definately COULD improve SD bullets.

Para Bellum · January 7, 2005, 04:25 PM

I live in Vienna/Austria (Europe) where hollowpoints are illegal. The Federal EMFJ isn't, frangible bullets are neither. So I conducted my own wetpack-Test of the Federal EMFJ and Fiocchi Frangible Ammunition in 9x19mm. I published the result with many pics on my website: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm
The EMFJ did remarkably well...
Stay safe.

Jim Watson · January 7, 2005, 05:22 PM

Federal has out a new premium hollowpoint, the HST, which is neither a Hydra Shok (no post) nor a High Shok - different design. Haven't seen much about it in gunfight or gelatin yet.

I think the EFMJ is a good idea. Would have been better if they had made it a roundnose instead of flatpoint.
I think the PowrBall is a good idea. I would have liked it better if they could have made it heavier and slower, but Corbon is velocity crazy.

abelew · January 7, 2005, 07:44 PM

Just buy corbon +p ammo, crazy high velocity, good hollowpoint design, high energy deposit

Harry Bonar · January 22, 2005, 02:49 PM

Dear Shooters:
Let me tell you how much I appreciate the FORUM! It's nice to listen and talk to you guys!
The late Charlie Kelsey of Devel Corp., years ago paid Joe Bonar (of Novaks) and I a visit with a new "scintered" bullet of his design. Ultimately he got into trouble somehow in Texas and was found with a bullet in his head and set on fire in a culvert.
Nontheless the bullet had unique flutes at the nose ans we shot it in 50 A&E, my muzzle-loader and 45 ACP. He had pictures of hogs and goats shot with this bullet; it was tremendous hydrostatic shock (the first I've ever seen.) If you hit a man any where in the thoracic cavity it was bye, bye!
I still have some of the bullets and I'll try, if there is any interest to photograph and put on the forum. Due to the light weight of this bullet it could be driven very fast - we didn't chronograph it. It actually would function in the 45 ACP (1911 package) and if it struck a metal plate it discintegrated! We thought it might be good for aircraft use. Don't mean to be superfluous but thought this might be interesting to forum.
Harry

Nnobby45 · January 22, 2005, 09:16 PM

"The two I listed would feed like FMJ but may still expand well. Any word from test labs yet?"

Word from the labs is very good for both rounds. As it is for others who have done the jello testing. It's actual street results we're waiting for.

Doug242ti · January 23, 2005, 05:13 PM

Not to go OT here but, whats the big deal if a hollow point gets "filled" with clothing. Wouldn't that just basicly make it a "soft" ball round?

Is the problem in that it not longer expands like a typical HP or does it not expand at all?

N.H. Yankee · January 27, 2005, 07:57 PM

Excellent point Doug, I have always read if a HP gets plugged it acts like a FMJ. So if it expands great, if it doesnt great! There is no perfect bullet for every situation, FMJ can overpenetrate and in a crowded area this could be tragic, if the bullet is fast and light heavy clothing can reduce penetration, I usually stick to Gold Dots as they tend to not get plugged as some closed HP designs and being bonded they hold together and penetrate. I tend to go with the mid to heavy weights in the caliber I shoot for penetration and energy. The new EMFJ and HST are too new and dont have a track record in actual shootings and as we know bullets do sometimes perform differntly in the real world than they do in ballistic gel or other media, They do sound good and time will tell.

Doug242ti · January 29, 2005, 01:17 AM

Thanks N H I've been wondering that for quite a while.

Robert M Boren Sr · January 29, 2005, 01:44 PM

I use golddots both in my 44mag and my 45auto. I haven't had to use them on anyone yet, and I pray that I never have to. I want to try them out on some thin skinned game this spring to see what they do.

March 29, 2002, 01:09 PM	#1
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Defensive bullets...new choices. Bridging the gap between Handgun forum stuff and Reloading stuff: There are some new choices out there...I wonder if we should start looking in the direction of the Cor-Bon Powr-Ball bullet, or the EFMJ? Both would be great feeding designs. That is of primary consideration for a defensive gun, and we all know several defensive instructors recommend FMJ. The two I listed would feed like FMJ but may still expand well. Any word from test labs yet? __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

March 29, 2002, 04:33 PM	#4
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Well, not only does the FMJ provide reliable feeding, but a FMJ styled expanding bullet wouldn't plug going through clothing. That's the single most problematic thing about HP's these days. Since very few folks are attackedby naked people, it seems like having a bullet that will perform through clothing is a serious consideration. All my guns feed HPs and SWCs just fine...I'm just trying to optomize. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

March 29, 2002, 06:14 PM	#6
Steve Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 1999 Posts: 4,131	Remember, Labgrade, we're talking about eliminating the "plugging" problem. That definately COULD improve SD bullets. __________________ Favor the X. Steve Smith NRA Life Member

January 7, 2005, 04:25 PM	#7
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	I tested the EMFJ, see result: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm I live in Vienna/Austria (Europe) where hollowpoints are illegal. The Federal EMFJ isn't, frangible bullets are neither. So I conducted my own wetpack-Test of the Federal EMFJ and Fiocchi Frangible Ammunition in 9x19mm. I published the result with many pics on my website: http://www.raoulwagner.com/9mm.htm The EMFJ did remarkably well... Stay safe.

January 7, 2005, 07:44 PM	#9
abelew Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2004 Location: Florida Posts: 778	Just buy corbon +p ammo, crazy high velocity, good hollowpoint design, high energy deposit __________________ "Where the choice is between only violence and cowardice, I would advise violence." ~ Mohatma Gandhi

March 29, 2002, 01:48 PM	#2
Tol Member Join Date: November 21, 2001 Posts: 92	This is the least specific answer I've ever given to a question. Last night a guy I work with showed me his new issue ammo in .40. It is made by Federal but isn't the hydra-shok. It was similar but with no center post. The side cuts were very deep. He said that they were told that it is supposed to perform like the old black talons. I'm kind of curious what it is, and whether I can buy the bullets to load. I've always used the hydra-shok but would be quite open to suggestion. Tol

March 29, 2002, 03:40 PM	#3
Chemistry Senior Member Join Date: September 23, 2001 Location: Central Alabama Posts: 158	The bullet you are referring to is the "Hi-Shok" bullet. Some folks claim that it actually expands more reliably than the Hydrashok because of the lack of the lead post, while others say it's garbage. I wouldn't know either way, since Federal bullets are just too darn expensive. The Federal EFMJ has done quite well. I don't know of a single place that sells the bullet used in the EMFJ cartridge, though. As for defensive bullets that give you reliable feeding, I'd suggest taking a long hard look at Remington's Classic JHP, not their Golden Saber. The classic JHP has a very conservative profile that closely resembles ball ammo.

March 29, 2002, 05:54 PM	#5
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Optomizing is a good thing, IMHO. First thing, as mentioned, is it must feed reliably & accuracy would be second bet. Gotta be able to shoot it & hit what you aim at - the prerequisites. Although I was quite satisfied with the old (circa 1970's) Rem .44 240 JHP, I'm way still up for newer & better. I'm thinking we've now reached the point where we have optimim penetration & expansion with today's handgun bullets (at their velocities) & how better can they be? Face it. A (defensive) handgun doesn't give us hydrostatic shock, even the "lowly" 9MM has bullets that expand & penetrate to 12-14" (granted, there's plugging & the like here & there which what? only provide for more penetration) & handgun bullets kill/stop just like an arrow does = by hemoraging (unless a CNS or actual skeletal breakdown) .... & that takes some amount of time. (As an aside, I recently participated in a kosher kill of 3X goats/sheep for Passover. "Throats cut" (caratoid, too) & these critters were dead on the spot within 1 minute - maybe a tad less. Way too long for SD purposes, but the fact remains = other than a CNS hit, the blood pressure must be lowered to such an extent that the "subject" loses conscienceness = stops the threat.) Rackin' my brain to invision what could be a better handgun bullet for SD, but can't for the life of me figure out what it could possibly be. Hope to be proven wrong - & sooner the better.

January 7, 2005, 05:22 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Federal has out a new premium hollowpoint, the HST, which is neither a Hydra Shok (no post) nor a High Shok - different design. Haven't seen much about it in gunfight or gelatin yet. I think the EFMJ is a good idea. Would have been better if they had made it a roundnose instead of flatpoint. I think the PowrBall is a good idea. I would have liked it better if they could have made it heavier and slower, but Corbon is velocity crazy.

January 22, 2005, 02:49 PM	#10
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	re-bullets Dear Shooters: Let me tell you how much I appreciate the FORUM! It's nice to listen and talk to you guys! The late Charlie Kelsey of Devel Corp., years ago paid Joe Bonar (of Novaks) and I a visit with a new "scintered" bullet of his design. Ultimately he got into trouble somehow in Texas and was found with a bullet in his head and set on fire in a culvert. Nontheless the bullet had unique flutes at the nose ans we shot it in 50 A&E, my muzzle-loader and 45 ACP. He had pictures of hogs and goats shot with this bullet; it was tremendous hydrostatic shock (the first I've ever seen.) If you hit a man any where in the thoracic cavity it was bye, bye! I still have some of the bullets and I'll try, if there is any interest to photograph and put on the forum. Due to the light weight of this bullet it could be driven very fast - we didn't chronograph it. It actually would function in the 45 ACP (1911 package) and if it struck a metal plate it discintegrated! We thought it might be good for aircraft use. Don't mean to be superfluous but thought this might be interesting to forum. Harry

January 22, 2005, 09:16 PM	#11
Nnobby45 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2004 Posts: 3,150	Steve "The two I listed would feed like FMJ but may still expand well. Any word from test labs yet?" Word from the labs is very good for both rounds. As it is for others who have done the jello testing. It's actual street results we're waiting for.

January 23, 2005, 05:13 PM	#12
Doug242ti Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 316	Not to go OT here but, whats the big deal if a hollow point gets "filled" with clothing. Wouldn't that just basicly make it a "soft" ball round? Is the problem in that it not longer expands like a typical HP or does it not expand at all? __________________ www.pbase.com/dkauer744 NRA Member

January 27, 2005, 07:57 PM	#13
N.H. Yankee Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Rural N.H. Posts: 1,586	Excellent point Doug, I have always read if a HP gets plugged it acts like a FMJ. So if it expands great, if it doesnt great! There is no perfect bullet for every situation, FMJ can overpenetrate and in a crowded area this could be tragic, if the bullet is fast and light heavy clothing can reduce penetration, I usually stick to Gold Dots as they tend to not get plugged as some closed HP designs and being bonded they hold together and penetrate. I tend to go with the mid to heavy weights in the caliber I shoot for penetration and energy. The new EMFJ and HST are too new and dont have a track record in actual shootings and as we know bullets do sometimes perform differntly in the real world than they do in ballistic gel or other media, They do sound good and time will tell. __________________ The real danger to America is not abroad but within.. Having an open mind is a good thing, but not so open that your brains fall out! Save America, abort liberalism.

January 29, 2005, 01:17 AM	#14
Doug242ti Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 316	Thanks N H I've been wondering that for quite a while. __________________ www.pbase.com/dkauer744 NRA Member

January 29, 2005, 01:44 PM	#15
Robert M Boren Sr Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2004 Location: NW Montana Posts: 269	I use golddots both in my 44mag and my 45auto. I haven't had to use them on anyone yet, and I pray that I never have to. I want to try them out on some thin skinned game this spring to see what they do.