.30-30 Hard Cast, Flat Nose...How Potent???

[Southern Shooter]

I often hear that the .30-30 round is marginal against bear and critters of the sort. I wonder what the combination of 170 grain, Hard Cast, Flat Nose with a muzzle velocity of 2200 FPS would do against large animals like black and brown bear, moose, and other large animals. Any experience or sound input on this?

Thanks....

ADDENDUM:
This would not be for the purpose of actually "hunting" for or "in search of" a large animal. The thought was more on the lines of a saddle gun, camp gun, etc. and used for defensive purposes. And, I am assuming "defensive purposes" would be within 50 yards.

[taylorce1]

Don't think you need a hard cast bullet to be potent on most of the game you stated. I think any good 170 grain bullet will do fine on black bear, and deer sized game. The .30-30 will work on elk and moose just fine as long as you keep the ranges reasonable preferably to less than 100 yards. I wouldn't even consider the .30-30 to use to hunt a brown or grizzly bear. If it was what I had in hand during an encounter with a big bear then it is what I'd use as it will have more power at close range than most hand guns.

I'm sure plenty of large bear have been killed by the .30-30 in its day. The fact is the .30-30 is still as effective as it ever was when it was the newest wonder cartridge on the block, and it has probably taken all game that has ever walked North America. The other fact is that there are far better choices of more powerful cartridges when going up against large game. Black bear and deer is what the .30-30 does best.

[briandg]

I don't like the idea. If you are going to shoot with a hard cast bullet, you are not going to have reliable expansion like you would with a jacketed bullet. The chances of it failing by either breaking up or just failing to expand are pretty high. My neighbor shot a deer with my cast 30 bullets in his 30-30; it took THREE rounds, and was still running.

That round is not in my opinion terribly good for moose, elk, large bear, whatever even with a jacketed bullet. I'm fully aware that I'm going to get a lot of flak for saying so, because it has, and can, and will continue to kill everything on the planet up to alaskan brown bear. I don't give half a fart about whether it can do something, I am concerned about the fact that there will be times that it will fail, and a larger caliber would not have failed.

I'm not happy with the current trend towards smaller and less powerful cartridges. People holler "overkill" at the ones who want a magnum rifle to shoot whitetail, and yes, the magnums are far more powerful than necessary to drop a missouri white tail, but the point is, it will be dead.

Going hunting with a marginal combination leaves you open to underkill, which means a game animal getting away, and dying of gangrene days later.

So, there is my personal experience. Three rounds of lead 30-30 at about that same velocity failed to put down a spike whitetail. two went into the chest, the third tore out the neck arteries, and it still ran.

[Doodlebugger45]

If, as mentioned it will be basically a camp gun rather than a primary hunting rifle, then it's not a bad combination. Actually, the shots would be less than 50 yards if it's truly a defensive situation. For those purposes, it's better to have a handy little gun that's where you need it than the biggest baddest rifle sitting in the tent. I have a 30-30 also, but I finally bought a 45-70 many years ago for the same use. In the back-country fishing camps we do there are hundreds of grizzly bears. Unlike during elk season, we don't typically have several magnum rifles sitting around. The Marlin 45-70 is just as handy as my 30-30 is but more lethal. It'll do a number on any irate moose or bear that busts into camp.

Great signature line by the way.

[Southern Shooter]

briandg:
hhhhmmmmmm...3 shots with any round should have taken that deer down. I would have to question the shot-placement. Maybe this is comparing apples and oranges...but, I recently took 2 deer with a .357 Magnum rifle shooting 158 grain semi-jacketed soft point. One shoot each. One at 73 yards that ran 45 steps and collapsed. And, the other taken at 40 yards and ran 25 steps and collapsed.

Doodlebugger45:
I would have a bigger and badder rifle if possible. This is just what I have for the time in a repreating-rifle.

And, thanks for the comment on the signature line. They are good words for me to keep in mind.

[publius]

I would not worry about the bullet failing, it will do what it is made to do. Very good penetration with minimal expansion.

[youp]

Black bears get really big. Much too big to be considered in the same light as a whitetail deer.

Many are the people that say a 30-30 is too small for a big bear and they say a 44 mag is okay. Do a little research first, I would take the 30-30 over a 44 mag any day in a show down with a bear. Just drop to a knee and start shooting quit when you are empty.

I am quite certain that one can be assured a hard cast bullet will not expand. By design they penetrate. I am also of the opinion that a cast bullet out of a 30-30 will do what you are asking. You may miss the expansion and shock when hitting a big bear. You gotta break him down.

I wonder what a game Warden would say if you started whacking critters at 50 yards and calling self defense...

[jaughtman]

that I would also rather have that 30/30 than any handgun, but it is far from optimum.

J

[Southern Shooter]

I did not mean to imply that I would be randomly shooting an animal at 50 yards under the guise of "self defense". However, if it was very clear the animal was heading in my direction with a nasty attitude I may then shoot. Especially, if I have family with me that I am obligated to protect. I will take my chances with the game warden. Other wise, I will follow the laws of the land.

[Scorch]

I often hear that the .30-30 round is marginal against bear and critters of the sort.

I am not sure where you are getting your ballistic information. While it is not a magnum by any stretch of the imagination, the 30-30 is fully capable of bringing down anything on this continent, including moose and grizzly (not my first choice of cartridges for those) and has done so repeatedly. 30-30 was the first carridge that put smallbore smokeless cartridge firepower in people's hands in the late 1890s, and it displaced black powder cartridges so rapidly that for years it was the high-powered big game cartridge of choice.

[banditt007]

I think there is very little chance of bullet failure, hard cast or not. One word, VELOCITY. The 30-30 lacks it, and shouldn't over stress and blow up. Unlike this situation.... guy shooting some super magnum, using regular cup and core bullets...coreloct/power point ect. Elk shows up 50 yards away, and the bullet turns into a fragmenting varmint round on its shoulder. This situation needs...either a better constructed bullet, or less impact velocity (further distance to the target). I haven't heard of or read of 170 grain regular bullets out of a 30-30, blowing up/fragmenting violently.

[briandg]

Yes, it did eventually go down. Placement wasn't bad, but it wasn't good, either. One went in the lungs, one lower and the rear of the chest, and he thinks that the last was into the neck.

As I said, whether or not a combination has worked before is not an indicator of it's appropriateness. If I'd have known he was going to use my lead bullet reloads for deer hunting, I'd have kicked his butt. they were practice loads.

You can use the 170s and they will be adequate to kill those animals, but my suggestion would still be to used a jacketed round nose 180 instead. Better results, probably, on bigger animals.

Am I saying that you're an idiot for this choice? of course not. It should work in almost every circumstance, but there will be times when the curve ball comes in, and it will fail, where a better round or load would not.

I own a .357 carbine myself, and wouldn't feel bad about using it on a deer, but no, I won't hunt with it. Can a .357 kill a deer? sure, so could a 38-40 and even the 32-20. My brother in law dropped a deer with a 158 swc from his blackhawk.

I'm stuck on the idea of using bigger, heavier arms, ones that will do a job with more certainty.

[Buzzcook]

That new leverevolution ammo from Hornady will probably do better than hardcast.

[30-30remchester]

I have studied bullet construction and terminal ballistics for years. I have over 100 bullets in my collection that were recovered from downed game animals, so I have some experence. From what I have seen, many 30-30 bullets are built for lightweight big game and are designed for rapid expansion thus reducing its capability to down very large game. However there are some good quality tough constructed bullets avalible now. Years ago Remington built a 170 grain Mushrooming Core-lokt that I have used successfully on an elk and a buffalo. The Nosler Partion should be an excellent big game bullet. Remington and Winchester both loaded heavy FMJ bullets in the past that should do what you are requesting from the heavy cast. While working as a big game guide I carried an 1894 Winchester 30 WCF and took a wounded buck mule deer buck at an estimated 300 plus yards as he was escaping. I was using 180 grain hard cast bullets loaded at 2100 fps. The buck was slightly below me running straight away. My bullet took him just off center of the root of the tail and completely penatrated his body cavity , exiting his throat. No expansion was evident, the only reaction was the deer stopped, shook his front leg, which wasnt hit, and walked into a ravine where I found him dead. I believe you are on the correct track thinking ultamate penatration is the key to this cartridge as a very big game killer in my opinion.

[bamaranger]

The old M94 has been doing exactly what you describe since it first hit the field, lo those many years ago. A handy, durable carbine that can take on much of North America game when needs be.

I think RemChester's advice is sound also. I have to believe that most if not all the 30-30 ammo these days is loaded for deer size game and rapid expansion. The exception would be the company loading 170 Nosler Partitions, and there may be some folks loading the Barnes or similar. Your 170 flat nose cast hard (you don't say how hard) would offer more penetration on the big animals you describe and a positive step ahead of the traditional "deer soft point."

I had a moose charge (well acutally, he more liked spooked in our direction) a gov't truck one time, a full size pickup! He didn't make contact, I wasn't armed (fire detail, I was the driver), but he sure darn well looked a WHOLE lot bigger than the southern whitetails I was used to seeing!!!!!!!

[Jack O'Conner]

30-30 performance is legendary. I'm a HUGE fan of this potent cartridge. I hunted this big red stag last Winter. It was taken at approx 85 yards. First two shots stopped this running animal and third shot knocked it down. First two shots exited the ribs after destoying chest organs. Last shot entered the chest at facing me angle, the bullet was found in heavy muscle at the pelvic region. Talk about penetration!

Plain 170 grain ammo will topple any animal found within North America. Of course, range limitations must be respected. 30-30 does its BEST work 150 yards and less.

Jack

[Scorch]

I want to hunt with Jack O'Conner, he always has great pictures! Thanks, Jack!

[Sheikyourbootie]

30-30 and hardcast have worked for my parents and grandparents (these are old pictures). My first black bear was with this combo as well. Just don't heat treat when you cast and the bullets should expand nicely.

[Paul B.]

Well, the question that arises is just how hard are the hardcast bullets in question? Is the BHN number known? I shoot my home cast bullets almost exclusively in the 30-30 when I have the oppotunity to us it on a hunt. haven't used it on much lately except on a coyote or two. It' s ben a bit too dangerous to hunt then where I used to go as it's too close to the Mexican border.
However, over the years I have taken 17 deer with the 30-30 and cast bullets. The bullet used most is the Lyman #311291 weighing about 175 gr. in wheel weight metal. I've killed 15 der with that bullet loaded to about 2000 FPS. just about all the shots were as close to brodside as I could make them.
The last two deer were shot with the RCBS #30-180-FN which casts out to 190 gr. in wheel weight metal and has a velocity of 1950 FPS which if you check it makes that a duplicate of the old .303 Savage round.I really like that load. Bullets are sized to .310" for those who want to try either of those bullets. Bullets drop at about 12 on the BHN scale and age harden to 14 on the scale after a couple of weeks. One could water drop them or "cook" them in an oven at 425 degrees for about an hour and then water drop them. BHN is almost instantly 28 on the scale and some have age hardened to 32 BHN in a couple of weeks.
I've located an area that has some feral hogs not to far from home so I'm thinking I'll try those RCBS bullets oven treated at 1950 FPS on one of those hogs if I can get a crack at them. If possible, I think I'll how well they penetrate that gristle shield I keep hearing about.
One can cast bullets from linotype metal and they make very nice hard shiney bullets but they also shatter when they hit bone and forget about mushrooming. The few Lyman #31291 bullets I have recovered look almost exactly like recoverd factory 170 gr. bullets.
Now this is just my humble oipinion, but if I was going to use a cast bullet in a 30-30 for camp defense purposes, I think I would look a bit closer to the heavier RCBS bullet. It has a nice flat on the nose and can afford to lose a bit of weight as it penetrates and still be heavy enough to go deep. I dunno if it would punch through a bear's skull even at close range or just shatter and frankly, I hope neither you or I will ever have to be in that position.
Personally, under those circumstances, I'd be paying the price of the Barnes TSX bullet designed for use in the 30-30 and never look back. Hunting an animal, even a bear means you have some control as to wheter you want to shoot or not. Facing a bear that may or may not be doing a false charge to bluff you or actually has malice toward you with intent to do damage is not a situation where the bullet could be "iffy". The Barnes bullet will punch through the biggest and baddest bear's skull if you keep your cool and shoot straight. Whether that cast bullet will or not is just way too much "iffy" to suit me and I'm a cast bullet freak from the get go. To paraphrase Dirty harry, "A man has to know his bullet's limitations."
Paul B.

[cje1980]

briandg, I will simply have to disagree with you. More energy gives you more range, not better "killing" ability. The 30-30 with a good 170 gr load will penetrate as well as a good 300 Win Mag or 30-06 load. It is still a .308 caliber bullet. The key thing is that its used "within its range limitations".

I really laugh at people that make kinetic energy calculations. You need so many ft/lbs of energy to kill an animal of this weight and so many ft/lbs to kill an animal of this size. Its baloney. Some people just don't understand ballistics. You don't need super duper bullets for the 30-30 because the bullet technology for this caliber was perfected decades ago. The bullets perform within the ranges recommended for this cartridge. For some reason it just plain works. It expands and penetrates in a straight line. Sometimes even better than a cartridge much more powerful.

It is looked down upon because of its range and ballistics but most hunters know that used within its limitations it just flat out works. I really find it hard to believe that it would fail when a bigger caliber would work. A 30 caliber expanding projectile through lungs of an animal will put it down. Its all about shot placement and bullet selection. Yes a 300 Win Mag can be overkill in some applications. Its not about the size of the animal, its about using the appropriate firearm for the "type" of hunting you will be engaging in. The 300 Win Mag is a long range rifle. It seems some people forget that most shots on game are within 200 yards. I've seen people take shots within 50 yards with Magnum caliber rifles and be very disappointe with the performance. Absolutely horrible shallow wounds. Inadequate penetration and too much damage. There is no magic bullet. Bullets are designed to perform within certain velocity windows. If you expect a 300 Win Mag bullet to perform well at 400+ yards, then count on it blowing apart at close range. The 30-30 works within a certain range and works well at that range. People killed Elk and Moose with the 30-30 100 years ago with very primitive bullet technology. Heck they did it with pointy sticks. People do it every year with Muzzle loaders. For larger game (Black Bear, Mule Deer, and Elk) stick with 170+ gr bullets and keep range to within 150 yards. For deer 150 gr or the 160 gr leverevolution can be used at whatever range the hunter can make the shot. To me that's 150-225 yards.

[treg]

As Paul B. eluded to, I believe the effectiveness of the bullet would be related to the area of it's meplat. Much like with a hard caast bullet in a handgun.

Thanks for the great post Paul B. and please report back on your hog adventures.

[reloader28]

cje1980 very nicely put!

PaulB
I do have to ask, you dont actually say for sure, but I'm thinking that you use the 14 BHN for hunting? I'm going to hunt with the Lyman 311041 that makes a 180gr checked and lubed. Been shooting air cooled WW at around 1850fps. Just trying to get all the info I can. I even tried soft nose with 80gr pure lead/ 100gr WW, but aint tested any yet.

[Sheikyourbootie]

Reloader. Just air cooled ww with this mold should be just fine. No need to mess with the pure lead soft point.

I have used the forester hollow pointer on these to the depth of about 1/3 of the nose and the expansion is pretty violent with air cooled ww. The 311041 is a great round. Ranch dog has a tumble lube version of this bullet with a wider meplat.

[cje1980]

Southern Shooter, I forgot to make my recommendation for a load that suits your purposes. Either the 170 gr Nosler Partition or the 170 gr Fusion will penetrate very well. I recently saw a test of the 170 gr Fusion stuff. It penetrated 25" of ballistics gel at close range and expanded nicely. Its a bonded bullet so it should stay together very well. It also has a narrow flat point which helps with penetration. It also has retains its energy better down range than traditional FN designs.

From what I've seen a flat nose or spire point are better for penetrating, especially objects at angles. There are many cases of round handgun projectiles deflecting off bear skulls and windshields. A heavy HC 30-30 projectile should do the job though if that's more affordable.

I've read many cases where the 30-30 was used successfully in Grizzly and Brown Bear attacks. One guy who put down an attacking Grizzly with a 30-30 said he actually probably wouldn't have survived if he had his 338 Magnum rifle with him. He said he could fire the 30-30 more quickly and accurately at close range. It will do its job if you do yours. What many people don't realize about Bear attacks is that the animal doesn't give you very good targets. You are basically left with Head, Neck, or Shoulder shots as the only type that will put the animal down instantly. A good shot is much more important than the paper ballistics of the projectile being fired. I know of plenty of cases of 9mm, 38 spl, and 357 Mag rounds putting down a Grizzly or Brown.

[tachunter]

30-30 is great for a brush gun