Hotter 4570 loads

Benny4570 · March 8, 2016, 10:57 AM

Hey guys, first post on the site so here goes nothing. I'm looking to make a hotter load for my 4570. I'm from northern Wisconsin so bears will probably be on the menu within the next couple years and want a stiff round that provides good penetration with a cast lead round. I'm using factory loads for deer right now but want to step it up for the bigger stuff. Any recommendations for a bear load or even a better deer round would be great.

Wyosmith · March 8, 2016, 11:19 AM

what is the rifle?

Benny4570 · March 8, 2016, 11:20 AM

Marlin 1895gs.

TimSr · March 8, 2016, 11:51 AM

Lyman's manual lists several levels of 45-70 loads for cast bullets depending on your firearm and what it will handle.

Benny4570 · March 8, 2016, 11:52 AM

Alright thanks. I'm new to the reloading world so that'll be helpful.

condor bravo · March 8, 2016, 12:13 PM

The .45-70 is the .458's little brother and factory rounds are quite potent; I'm always loading down. You of course have loading manuals and the Lyman for the Marlin 1895 shows a max load of about 1800 fps with a jacketed 405 gr SP. The .458 max loading for the same bullet is some 400 fps faster than the .45-70 loading. I would think that the 405 loading for the .45-70 would do the job. That particular max load is 46 gr of RX7. But I would think that factory rounds would certainly be as good.

T. O'Heir · March 8, 2016, 01:25 PM

A bear from northern Wisconsin isn't any tougher than one from anywhere else. You really don't need a hot load for 'em. The same load you use for Bambi will do nicely for Yogi too.
Think in terms of the physics of big things going slow vs smaller things going faster. They'll do the same thing. Even with a cast bullet. And neither Yogi nor Bambi will know or care about the difference.
"...factory rounds are quite potent..." Most are loaded to BP pressures. Not that a BP load won't drop Yogi. However, out of a strong action, like the Ruger single shots, the .45-70 can indeed be loaded to near .458 Win velocities. Ruger loads(listed as 'Modern Rifles' by Hodgdon. No cast bullet loads there though. Lots in the assorted manuals.) are not for use in any lever action though. Like bullet weight lever action loads are about 10,000 CUP less pressure vs the 'Modern Rifles' loads.
Lots of lever action data on Hodgdon's site as well as nearly every loading manual.

98 220 swift · March 8, 2016, 02:00 PM

Look for lever action loads in the reloading manuals. I have some as well but not with me. How long is barrel on the 1895gs? I am not up on my marlin talk. I have settled on the 325gr ftx in my guide gun 18.5" barrel. I can get it over 2000 fps but accuracy is bad. in the 1800 fps range accuracy is sub MOA at 100 yards for 3 shots. This is also what the factory levervlotion loads do. I would think it would be pretty good on bear.

NoSecondBest · March 8, 2016, 03:11 PM

I have yet to recover even one bullet from any whitetail I've shot and all were shot with mild-medium loads and 405g bullets. Some were shot end-to-end. Even a moderate loaded 45-70 with a 400+ grain bullet will easily pass through a black bear....even a fat one. Black bears just aren't that hard to kill. I don't even bother to shoot them (even though I have lots of them on my property every year) but others around me shoot them and I don't recall any getting away either shot with a bow or any caliber rifle. I know some probably do, but I'd guess it's from poor hits in a non vital area.

**44 AMP** · March 8, 2016, 05:05 PM

The standard 405gr slug at 1300fps (black powder speed) had taken everything in North America for over 140 years. I don't think it going to fail now. Of course, you have to do your part, too.

MR Bear is NOT as big as his bear suit makes him look. Study bear anatomy before hunting. Otherwise, what you think might be a shot in the right place might not be!

you can load the 45-70 up in modern rifles, I've used 1800fps loads in the Marlin, and even a 350gr at 2200fps in a Ruger No.3.

You might be different, but for me, felt recoil is not linear with the .45-70. 1300fps loads are a mild shove, 1800fps is a hard shove, and above that, things change RAPIDLY!!

If you have a scope on your Marlin (conventional mount) DO NOT CRAWL THE STOCK, when you shoot top end loads. Eyebrows bleed A LOT!!!

Use something with enough eye relief that your head is well back or you might be sorry!

Clark · March 8, 2016, 05:10 PM

I bought a handi rifle for $100 1999 and wondered what load war right for it: 1) trapdoor, 2) lever 3) Ruger #1
There was no published answer back then.
So I got help from my father [table pounding gun designing chief engineer] and a mechanical engineering professor [nice guy] to help me calculate the max stress. I calculated way over the 85 kpsi the brass would be good for. So I verified with a work up Ruger #1 double loads when the brass flowed. [Not holding the rifle on my shoulder].

I fired a trapdoor starting load against my shoulder. I was kicked so hard I did not pick up that rifle again for more than a year.

Then the company that makes handi rifles announced they were good for lever level loads.

So I have hot loads, but I would recommend using wimpy 45/70 loads.

Nathan · March 8, 2016, 06:49 PM

I would stick with a heavy trapdoor load with a 405 gr Bullet. That is shoot able and hard hitting.

The Ruger #1 loads are brutal.

SHR970 · March 8, 2016, 07:10 PM

Any of the published lever action level loads pushing a 400+ gr. BH 15-18 bullet 1600 fps will ruin a bears day.

Of course you can also push a Hornady 350 gr. FP or RN to 2000+ fps and know that it is gonna hurt the bear more than it's gonna hurt you. And IT WILL hurt you.

Benny4570 · March 8, 2016, 10:40 PM

Thanks for the info guys. Found a site called reloaders nest and got some good stuff from them as well.

March 8, 2016, 12:13 PM	#6
condor bravo Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2014 Location: Nevada/Ariz/CA Posts: 1,753	The .45-70 is the .458's little brother and factory rounds are quite potent; I'm always loading down. You of course have loading manuals and the Lyman for the Marlin 1895 shows a max load of about 1800 fps with a jacketed 405 gr SP. The .458 max loading for the same bullet is some 400 fps faster than the .45-70 loading. I would think that the 405 loading for the .45-70 would do the job. That particular max load is 46 gr of RX7. But I would think that factory rounds would certainly be as good. __________________ Ouch, the dreaded "M-1 thumb", you just know it will happen eventually, so why not do it now and get it over with?? Last edited by condor bravo; March 8, 2016 at 12:20 PM.

March 8, 2016, 01:25 PM	#7
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	A bear from northern Wisconsin isn't any tougher than one from anywhere else. You really don't need a hot load for 'em. The same load you use for Bambi will do nicely for Yogi too. Think in terms of the physics of big things going slow vs smaller things going faster. They'll do the same thing. Even with a cast bullet. And neither Yogi nor Bambi will know or care about the difference. "...factory rounds are quite potent..." Most are loaded to BP pressures. Not that a BP load won't drop Yogi. However, out of a strong action, like the Ruger single shots, the .45-70 can indeed be loaded to near .458 Win velocities. Ruger loads(listed as 'Modern Rifles' by Hodgdon. No cast bullet loads there though. Lots in the assorted manuals.) are not for use in any lever action though. Like bullet weight lever action loads are about 10,000 CUP less pressure vs the 'Modern Rifles' loads. Lots of lever action data on Hodgdon's site as well as nearly every loading manual. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

March 8, 2016, 05:05 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,871	The standard 405gr slug at 1300fps (black powder speed) had taken everything in North America for over 140 years. I don't think it going to fail now. Of course, you have to do your part, too. MR Bear is NOT as big as his bear suit makes him look. Study bear anatomy before hunting. Otherwise, what you think might be a shot in the right place might not be! you can load the 45-70 up in modern rifles, I've used 1800fps loads in the Marlin, and even a 350gr at 2200fps in a Ruger No.3. You might be different, but for me, felt recoil is not linear with the .45-70. 1300fps loads are a mild shove, 1800fps is a hard shove, and above that, things change RAPIDLY!! If you have a scope on your Marlin (conventional mount) DO NOT CRAWL THE STOCK, when you shoot top end loads. Eyebrows bleed A LOT!!! Use something with enough eye relief that your head is well back or you might be sorry! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 8, 2016, 05:10 PM	#11
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I bought a handi rifle for $100 1999 and wondered what load war right for it: 1) trapdoor, 2) lever 3) Ruger #1 There was no published answer back then. So I got help from my father [table pounding gun designing chief engineer] and a mechanical engineering professor [nice guy] to help me calculate the max stress. I calculated way over the 85 kpsi the brass would be good for. So I verified with a work up Ruger #1 double loads when the brass flowed. [Not holding the rifle on my shoulder]. I fired a trapdoor starting load against my shoulder. I was kicked so hard I did not pick up that rifle again for more than a year. Then the company that makes handi rifles announced they were good for lever level loads. So I have hot loads, but I would recommend using wimpy 45/70 loads. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

March 8, 2016, 10:57 AM	#1
Benny4570 Junior Member Join Date: March 7, 2016 Posts: 4	Hotter 4570 loads Hey guys, first post on the site so here goes nothing. I'm looking to make a hotter load for my 4570. I'm from northern Wisconsin so bears will probably be on the menu within the next couple years and want a stiff round that provides good penetration with a cast lead round. I'm using factory loads for deer right now but want to step it up for the bigger stuff. Any recommendations for a bear load or even a better deer round would be great.

March 8, 2016, 11:19 AM	#2
Wyosmith Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2010 Location: Shoshoni Wyoming Posts: 2,713	what is the rifle?

March 8, 2016, 11:20 AM	#3
Benny4570 Junior Member Join Date: March 7, 2016 Posts: 4	Marlin 1895gs.

March 8, 2016, 11:51 AM	#4
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	Lyman's manual lists several levels of 45-70 loads for cast bullets depending on your firearm and what it will handle.

March 8, 2016, 11:52 AM	#5
Benny4570 Junior Member Join Date: March 7, 2016 Posts: 4	Alright thanks. I'm new to the reloading world so that'll be helpful.

March 8, 2016, 02:00 PM	#8
98 220 swift Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2015 Location: Perryville MO Posts: 426	Look for lever action loads in the reloading manuals. I have some as well but not with me. How long is barrel on the 1895gs? I am not up on my marlin talk. I have settled on the 325gr ftx in my guide gun 18.5" barrel. I can get it over 2000 fps but accuracy is bad. in the 1800 fps range accuracy is sub MOA at 100 yards for 3 shots. This is also what the factory levervlotion loads do. I would think it would be pretty good on bear.

March 8, 2016, 03:11 PM	#9
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	I have yet to recover even one bullet from any whitetail I've shot and all were shot with mild-medium loads and 405g bullets. Some were shot end-to-end. Even a moderate loaded 45-70 with a 400+ grain bullet will easily pass through a black bear....even a fat one. Black bears just aren't that hard to kill. I don't even bother to shoot them (even though I have lots of them on my property every year) but others around me shoot them and I don't recall any getting away either shot with a bow or any caliber rifle. I know some probably do, but I'd guess it's from poor hits in a non vital area.

March 8, 2016, 06:49 PM	#12
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,334	I would stick with a heavy trapdoor load with a 405 gr Bullet. That is shoot able and hard hitting. The Ruger #1 loads are brutal.

March 8, 2016, 07:10 PM	#13
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Any of the published lever action level loads pushing a 400+ gr. BH 15-18 bullet 1600 fps will ruin a bears day. Of course you can also push a Hornady 350 gr. FP or RN to 2000+ fps and know that it is gonna hurt the bear more than it's gonna hurt you. And IT WILL hurt you.

March 8, 2016, 10:40 PM	#14
Benny4570 Junior Member Join Date: March 7, 2016 Posts: 4	Thanks for the info guys. Found a site called reloaders nest and got some good stuff from them as well.