45 long colt cartridge

MikeKPP · March 28, 2011, 02:36 PM

Since the 45 long colt cartridge was longer in 1873 then today. Would that make the cyclinder longer or its the same size as todays peace makers.

denster · March 28, 2011, 02:43 PM

The 45 LC cartridge is the same length today as it was in the past. You may be thinking about the 45 Schofield vs the 45 Colt.

Bishop Creek · March 28, 2011, 02:46 PM

Not longer, same OAL as today's .45, just held a bit more black powder because the original 1870s copper case had thinner walls and a smaller primer pocket and thus more room for powder; 40 grains.

Jbar4Ranch · March 28, 2011, 05:01 PM

In 1873, and for a few years thereafter, it actually held LESS powder than today, due to the internal Benet priming system used.

ClemBert · March 28, 2011, 05:38 PM

I found out that the 45 Long Colt was just too long for the chambers in my 45 revolvers so I went with the 45 Colt because it seems to fit better.

Hehehehe....thought I'd stir the puddin' a lil' bit. See what happens when y'all call it the Long Colt.

My Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook has a data sheet for the 45 Colt and none for the 45 Long Colt. In fact the 45 Colt data sheet reads in part:

"The 45 Colt is also known--mistakenly--as the 45 Long Colt. In contrast to several other offerings from Colt, i.e. 32 Short/Long, 38 Short/Long, 41 Short/Long, there never was a 45 Short Colt".

Okay....let's get this poop storm goin'!

Hawg · March 28, 2011, 05:52 PM

I dare ya to find a case head stamped .45 L. Colt.

Jbar4Ranch · March 28, 2011, 06:15 PM

The .45 short Colt.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short_colt.htm

It's also listed in Cartridges of the World.

SIGSHR · March 28, 2011, 06:43 PM

IIRC there use to a "balloon head" case which held a few more grains of black powder. Also I think the original name for the round was simply 45 Colt.

Hawg · March 28, 2011, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Also I think the original name for the round was simply 45 Colt.

Original name, past name and present name. There never officially was a .45 Long Colt. It came into being because people started calling it that so it wouldn't be confused with the shorter .45 S&W.

ClemBert · March 28, 2011, 06:59 PM

Daggum it. I'm gonna break out the hacksaw and cut some of them .45 Colts down and stuff 'em with 28 grains BP then busta-a-cap in some squirrel's ass so that he can claim to be the last critter shot by a "short Colt".

Foto Joe · March 29, 2011, 02:02 PM

If you haven't already figured it out, old and new are the same size. It's just a little tougher to scrunch 40gr into the new ones 'cause they're not the thin wall balloon head cartridges of yesteryear.

And speaking of stiring pots, how's this for a "Looonnng Colt"

And NO those aren't smokeless cartridges!!

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2011, 02:34 PM

And yet Colt, manufacturer of these guns, uses the term Long Colt in identifying its revolvers chambered for this cartridge, as evidenced by the PDF of the 2010 catalog now on Colt Manufacturing's website...

I've asked this many times over the years, and I've never gotten an answer from the "NEVER EXISTED CROWD!!!", probably because they're far too busy flailing their arms and screaming at the top of their lungs to notice...

What does it matter?

How many cartridges can you name that are legitimately identified (mean that people know exactly what you're talking about) by two or more names?

I can name dozens.

Do any of the "OH GOD NO THE .45 LONG COLT NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!" crowd yell equally loudly when someone says 9mm Luger, 9mm NATO, or 9x19 instead of the original 9mm Parabellum?

Do the "OH GOD NO'ers!" 100% ACCURATELY identify the .38 Special as the .38 Smith & Wesson Special?

How about the .357 Magnum as the .357 Smith & Wesson Magnum?

Or the .44 Magnum as the .44 Remington Magnum?

One could just as accurately claim that there's no such thing as the .38 Special BECAUSE IT'S THE .38 SMITH & WESSON SPECIAL, DAMNIT!

Is it truly a horrific crime if someone purchases a gun stamped .38 Colt Special, when in reality Colt simply grafted their name in place of Smith & Wesson's because they couldn't face putting their competitor's name on their guns?

How about the .30-30 Winchester? How many of the absolutists know that that cartridge apparently doesn't exist? That it's the .30 Winchester Center Fire?

So then, what's really in a name for an object?

Is it something that is absolutely immutable, and those who dare transgress must be ridiculed and reminded that they are inferior?

Or is it just a data point that allows people to quickly and easily know what everyone is talking about?

BlueTrain · March 29, 2011, 02:39 PM

The 9mm cartridges I have say 9mm Luger on them. And I load them into a clip!

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2011, 02:42 PM

And I have 9mm cartridges that say on the headstamp:

* 9mm Para.

* 9x19

* 9 Luger

* 9 NATO

All manufactured by American companies.

Bishop Creek · March 29, 2011, 02:43 PM

Is it .44-40 or 44 WCF (Winchester Center Fire)?

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2011, 02:52 PM

Well, if we're being screamingly pedantic and 100% historically accurate about it, it's the .44 Winchester Center Fire.

If we're being lax and slack and inaccurate and non-historic, it's the .44-40, which is OBVIOUSLY a cartridge that has NEVER EVER EXISTED!

Foto Joe · March 29, 2011, 02:55 PM

Originally it was the 44 Winchester Center Fire designed by Winchester as the standard chambering for the 1873 Model. When Union Metallic Cartridge started producing the ammunition they called it the 44-40, ostensibly so that they didn't have to put their competitors name on it.

Although what I've posted above makes me look like I have above average intelligence nothing could be further from the truth, it was simply plagerized from Wikipedia.

You guys are kinda gettin' wound up over trivial stuff aren't ya?

ClemBert · March 29, 2011, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ClemBert

Hehehehe....thought I'd stir the puddin' a lil' bit.

Yup, all it takes is a lil' bit of stirin' to get blood to shoot out of some of y'all eyes.

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2011, 03:08 PM

My point exactly, Joe.

It's this cartridge, and this cartridge alone, that brings out so many people out of the woodwork...

Oh, and I believe that Wikipedia is actually wrong.

Union Metallic Cartridge Company was just that, a manufacturer of ammunition. They were years out from being combined in a holding company with Remington when Winchester introduced the .44 WCF in 1874(?).

UMC had no problems putting a competitor's name on a cartridge because, well, because UMC wasn't in competition with the ammunition manufacturers.

The most likely reason UMC began using the .44-40 nomenclature is because they apparently had some sort of manufacturing affiliation with Colt, and it was apparently Colt that started using .44-40 because they didn't want to use .44 WCF on its guns.

The box pictured here (http://www.oldammo.com/december03.htm) is an early UMC .44-40 box. Notice that the reference to Colt's revolvers is very prominent, while the reference to the Winchester 1873 is almost an afterthought....

Notice also that at this early stage it's NOT .44-40, it's .44-100, which is the basic caliber of the round.

Edited to add... - You know, thinking about this some more, the answer may be more complex... Winchester actually was manufacturing its own ammunition at the time...

UMC may well have seen them as a competitor...

Hardcase · March 29, 2011, 03:14 PM

Ditto the ".38-40", ".38-40 Winchester", .38 WCF or, as plainly put on my Colt Lightning rifle: .38 Cal (because you know darn well that Colt is not going to put anything resembling the "W" word on their rifle!)

Foto Joe · March 29, 2011, 03:18 PM

Your edit caught my point. Winchester did indeed make ammunition in competition with UMC. The Colt angle also has merit for them not to use the dreaded WCF on the headstamp.

What it all really boils down to is this is all ClemBerts fault. He started it and should be dealt with appropriately when he's not paying attention.

kameron454ci · March 29, 2011, 03:53 PM

"The 9mm cartridges I have say 9mm Luger on them. And I load them into a clip" you mean magazine lol

Hawg · March 29, 2011, 04:01 PM

I don't make a big deal out of it. I was just sayin. BTW it's 44 Winchester Central Fire.

mykeal · March 29, 2011, 04:02 PM

Hamlet:
Madam, how like you this play?

Queen:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

**Mike Irwin** · March 29, 2011, 05:02 PM

"BTW it's 44 Winchester Central Fire."

Oddly enough, both Center and Central fire appear to have been used by Winchester almost interchangeably.

March 28, 2011, 02:36 PM	#1
MikeKPP Junior Member Join Date: March 23, 2011 Posts: 8	45 long colt cartridge Since the 45 long colt cartridge was longer in 1873 then today. Would that make the cyclinder longer or its the same size as todays peace makers.

March 28, 2011, 05:01 PM	#4
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	In 1873, and for a few years thereafter, it actually held LESS powder than today, due to the internal Benet priming system used. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

March 28, 2011, 06:15 PM	#7
Jbar4Ranch Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 1999 Location: Near Helena, Montana Posts: 1,719	The .45 short Colt. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short_colt.htm It's also listed in Cartridges of the World. __________________ Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets replaced... SASS 47015

March 29, 2011, 02:02 PM	#11
Foto Joe Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2010 Location: Cody, Wyoming Posts: 111	If you haven't already figured it out, old and new are the same size. It's just a little tougher to scrunch 40gr into the new ones 'cause they're not the thin wall balloon head cartridges of yesteryear. And speaking of stiring pots, how's this for a "Looonnng Colt" And NO those aren't smokeless cartridges!! __________________ Foto Joe

March 29, 2011, 02:34 PM	#12
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	And yet Colt, manufacturer of these guns, uses the term Long Colt in identifying its revolvers chambered for this cartridge, as evidenced by the PDF of the 2010 catalog now on Colt Manufacturing's website... I've asked this many times over the years, and I've never gotten an answer from the "NEVER EXISTED CROWD!!!", probably because they're far too busy flailing their arms and screaming at the top of their lungs to notice... What does it matter? How many cartridges can you name that are legitimately identified (mean that people know exactly what you're talking about) by two or more names? I can name dozens. Do any of the "OH GOD NO THE .45 LONG COLT NEVER EXISTED!!!!!!" crowd yell equally loudly when someone says 9mm Luger, 9mm NATO, or 9x19 instead of the original 9mm Parabellum? Do the "OH GOD NO'ers!" 100% ACCURATELY identify the .38 Special as the .38 Smith & Wesson Special? How about the .357 Magnum as the .357 Smith & Wesson Magnum? Or the .44 Magnum as the .44 Remington Magnum? One could just as accurately claim that there's no such thing as the .38 Special BECAUSE IT'S THE .38 SMITH & WESSON SPECIAL, DAMNIT! Is it truly a horrific crime if someone purchases a gun stamped .38 Colt Special, when in reality Colt simply grafted their name in place of Smith & Wesson's because they couldn't face putting their competitor's name on their guns? How about the .30-30 Winchester? How many of the absolutists know that that cartridge apparently doesn't exist? That it's the .30 Winchester Center Fire? So then, what's really in a name for an object? Is it something that is absolutely immutable, and those who dare transgress must be ridiculed and reminded that they are inferior? Or is it just a data point that allows people to quickly and easily know what everyone is talking about? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 28, 2011, 02:43 PM	#2
denster Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 581	The 45 LC cartridge is the same length today as it was in the past. You may be thinking about the 45 Schofield vs the 45 Colt.

March 28, 2011, 02:46 PM	#3
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Not longer, same OAL as today's .45, just held a bit more black powder because the original 1870s copper case had thinner walls and a smaller primer pocket and thus more room for powder; 40 grains.

March 28, 2011, 05:38 PM	#5
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	I found out that the 45 Long Colt was just too long for the chambers in my 45 revolvers so I went with the 45 Colt because it seems to fit better. Hehehehe....thought I'd stir the puddin' a lil' bit. See what happens when y'all call it the Long Colt. My Lyman's 49th Reloading Handbook has a data sheet for the 45 Colt and none for the 45 Long Colt. In fact the 45 Colt data sheet reads in part: "The 45 Colt is also known--mistakenly--as the 45 Long Colt. In contrast to several other offerings from Colt, i.e. 32 Short/Long, 38 Short/Long, 41 Short/Long, there never was a 45 Short Colt". Okay....let's get this poop storm goin'!

March 28, 2011, 05:52 PM	#6
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I dare ya to find a case head stamped .45 L. Colt.

March 28, 2011, 06:43 PM	#8
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	IIRC there use to a "balloon head" case which held a few more grains of black powder. Also I think the original name for the round was simply 45 Colt.

March 28, 2011, 06:59 PM	#10
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	Daggum it. I'm gonna break out the hacksaw and cut some of them .45 Colts down and stuff 'em with 28 grains BP then busta-a-cap in some squirrel's ass so that he can claim to be the last critter shot by a "short Colt".

March 29, 2011, 02:39 PM	#13
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	The 9mm cartridges I have say 9mm Luger on them. And I load them into a clip! __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

March 29, 2011, 02:42 PM	#14
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	And I have 9mm cartridges that say on the headstamp: * 9mm Para. * 9x19 * 9 Luger * 9 NATO All manufactured by American companies. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 29, 2011, 02:43 PM	#15
Bishop Creek Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Posts: 566	Is it .44-40 or 44 WCF (Winchester Center Fire)?

March 29, 2011, 02:52 PM	#16
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Well, if we're being screamingly pedantic and 100% historically accurate about it, it's the .44 Winchester Center Fire. If we're being lax and slack and inaccurate and non-historic, it's the .44-40, which is OBVIOUSLY a cartridge that has NEVER EVER EXISTED! __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 29, 2011, 02:55 PM	#17
Foto Joe Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2010 Location: Cody, Wyoming Posts: 111	Originally it was the 44 Winchester Center Fire designed by Winchester as the standard chambering for the 1873 Model. When Union Metallic Cartridge started producing the ammunition they called it the 44-40, ostensibly so that they didn't have to put their competitors name on it. Although what I've posted above makes me look like I have above average intelligence nothing could be further from the truth, it was simply plagerized from Wikipedia. You guys are kinda gettin' wound up over trivial stuff aren't ya? __________________ Foto Joe

March 29, 2011, 03:08 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	My point exactly, Joe. It's this cartridge, and this cartridge alone, that brings out so many people out of the woodwork... Oh, and I believe that Wikipedia is actually wrong. Union Metallic Cartridge Company was just that, a manufacturer of ammunition. They were years out from being combined in a holding company with Remington when Winchester introduced the .44 WCF in 1874(?). UMC had no problems putting a competitor's name on a cartridge because, well, because UMC wasn't in competition with the ammunition manufacturers. The most likely reason UMC began using the .44-40 nomenclature is because they apparently had some sort of manufacturing affiliation with Colt, and it was apparently Colt that started using .44-40 because they didn't want to use .44 WCF on its guns. The box pictured here (http://www.oldammo.com/december03.htm) is an early UMC .44-40 box. Notice that the reference to Colt's revolvers is very prominent, while the reference to the Winchester 1873 is almost an afterthought.... Notice also that at this early stage it's NOT .44-40, it's .44-100, which is the basic caliber of the round. Edited to add... - You know, thinking about this some more, the answer may be more complex... Winchester actually was manufacturing its own ammunition at the time... UMC may well have seen them as a competitor... __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 29, 2011, 03:14 PM	#20
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	Ditto the ".38-40", ".38-40 Winchester", .38 WCF or, as plainly put on my Colt Lightning rifle: .38 Cal (because you know darn well that Colt is not going to put anything resembling the "W" word on their rifle!) __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

March 29, 2011, 03:18 PM	#21
Foto Joe Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2010 Location: Cody, Wyoming Posts: 111	Your edit caught my point. Winchester did indeed make ammunition in competition with UMC. The Colt angle also has merit for them not to use the dreaded WCF on the headstamp. What it all really boils down to is this is all ClemBerts fault. He started it and should be dealt with appropriately when he's not paying attention. __________________ Foto Joe

March 29, 2011, 03:53 PM	#22
kameron454ci Member Join Date: January 14, 2011 Location: Montague. MI Posts: 85	"The 9mm cartridges I have say 9mm Luger on them. And I load them into a clip" you mean magazine lol

March 29, 2011, 04:01 PM	#23
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I don't make a big deal out of it. I was just sayin. BTW it's 44 Winchester Central Fire.

March 29, 2011, 04:02 PM	#24
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Hamlet: Madam, how like you this play? Queen: The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

March 29, 2011, 05:02 PM	#25
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"BTW it's 44 Winchester Central Fire." Oddly enough, both Center and Central fire appear to have been used by Winchester almost interchangeably. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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