Manual charging of cases on a progressive?

[Crashbox]

I posted this on another forum but I reckon it's worth a try here too-

I currently have a Hornady LnL AP with a couple of case-activated powder measure assemblies for my .357 and .40, respectively. Unfortunately, flake-type powders such as Herco do not behave well in these powder measures, and I would like to find a way to charge the cases manually at station #2 (a charge verification device such as my RCBS Lock-Out Die *always* follows on my progressive).

Has anyone used charging dies such as the LEE for doing so on a progressive like an LnL AP? If so, what peculiarities did you run into?

I'm sure there will be those who will recommend switching to a powder which meters better, e.g., WSF, but I found at least one of my wheelguns really likes Herco in spite of its drawbacks.

Thank you in advance.

[Lost Sheep]

Good for you. I cannot help with your question, but I, too, have more than once considered manually charging cases using my powder-through die instead of a powder measure.

I have read posts by people who manually drop charges on their turret and progressive presses when working up loads. Weigh and charge 5 charges at one weight, then 5 more at the next increment. It simply does not make sense to use a powder measure for that sort of task.

For me, I just don't like mounting and dismounting my powder measure every time I change calibers. My only other choice is to get 6 measures and leave them set on the turrets, but then, I have a storage problem.

If you would like to continue using a powder measure, some designs work better with flake than other designs. I would investigate QM (Quick Measure) for example. It is horribly expensive, but manufactured by a one-man shop who, I bet, will work with you. I have heard only good things about the measure's abilities.

http://quick-measure.com/

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

[Crashbox]

Thank you for the QM link, Lost Sheep.

I am seriously considering its purchase, it can even be adapted to my LnL AP... I like that.

[tobnpr]

Crashbox...

I have thought about a way to integrate a gravity-feed type of setup from an electronic dispenser into my LNL.

I believe Lee makes a funnel-type setup which is installed at the die station that allows a powder "dump" into the case at the station, without needing to remove the case. I'll try to find it...

I've read the info on the Quick Measure, interesting product. It correctly (IMO) points out the primary issue with powder drops- and that's vibration. I had a HELL of a problem with stick powder metering because my bench top was only 3/4" plywood, and the press would shake like hell, and get jerked around particularly if I had a "stubborn" case in the sizing die. When you remove the vibration and movement from the press- like mounting on a concrete bench, you alleviate almost all of the vibration/shaking that causes powders to "settle".

While I agree it's an interesting product, I don't see how it does anything more than, mounting on a concrete bench where movement is all but eliminated. It still meters by volume, and not weight- and they even acknowledge that because of this it is not precise. There's only so much precision you can get when metering by volume. Hence, my goal to incorporate an electronic dispenser into the scheme...

[Crashbox]

I also have been thinking along the same lines of electronic scale/dispenser incorporation, tobnpr.

Even so far as to have a robotic arm that would gently grab the scale pan, move it over to the funnel/die on the press, dump the charge, then return the pan to the scale.

This could be fun...!

[Edward429451]

It kind of defeats the purpose of the progressive press to do that, but it is an interesting idea. If you installed a powder dump die where the measure would go you could even use 4064 without too much ado.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by Crashbox

I also have been thinking along the same lines of electronic scale/dispenser incorporation, tobnpr.

Even so far as to have a robotic arm that would gently grab the scale pan, move it over to the funnel/die on the press, dump the charge, then return the pan to the scale.

Once the charge is segregated from the powder reservoir, subsequent settling is irrelevant, is it not?

What I mean is that the dumping of the powder into the funnel will 100% perfectly "unsettle" the powder into the case. Also, subsequent jostling of the cartridge before chambering and firing will intervene. The only powder settling to be concerned over is that which occurs before measuring. And the dispensing by weight obviates that, anyway, right? Unless I have misunderstood. You may be overthinking this. (Overthinking is usually my major fault.)

Originally Posted by tobnpr

I believe Lee makes a funnel-type setup which is installed at the die station that allows a powder "dump" into the case at the station, without needing to remove the case. I'll try to find it...

Correct. The $4 funnel fits in the powder-through die snugly, when you replace the Auto-disk with the collar that comes with the die. Part # or SKU #90190.

It is interesting to note that many people believe, with considerable evidence to back it up, that volume is more effective a factor than weight. But you do have to make sure the volumetric measure is consistent. Not all are (for reasons cited by other posters). I won't weigh (no pun intended) in on either side, as I am still undecided.

Lost Sheep

[Crashbox]

For me, it's not so much volume vs. weight but rather, consistency.

When I use the LnL measure and Herco I can usually get within +/- 0.1 to 0.2 grains if I am careful, but when I can feel the powder 'crunch' when the drum rotates I know it is going to be inconsistent. I was off-press throwing 7.4-7.5 (and an occasional 7.6) grains of Herco for my MBC 140-grain TCFP which my SP101 really likes, but one time it crunched and threw 7.9! That's too much variation for me. Hence the search for an alternate charging method.

I may purchase an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 combo unit and use the LEE charge die/funnel duo to begin with since I could also use the Chargemaster for rifle rounds. I don't load rifle yet but I have a few that I will likely do so. In the future, I may get a Quick Measure for the LnL...

Still brainstorming...

[tobnpr]

I only use my LNL for centerfires, and because my sons and I shoot long range, I'm trying more so than ever to get the metering as precise as possible.

We all know that the stick powders meter like crap, but since I prefer them due to their insensitivity to temperature, I'm trying to figure out a way to get the metering more precise.

Edward, I agree that the idea is kind of counter to the goal of a progressive. But, what I do- trying to load precision for long-range- is also counter. Most precision reloaders would load low and trickle up, anyway.

I just try to strike a balance. With three of us shooting, I can't spend the time trying to "trickle up", 300-400 rounds at a time. I'd go nuts...

While "dumping" electronically weighed charges will certainly slow down the process, it might be a compromise between the relative inaccuracy of the meter, and the precision of trickling up.

[Crashbox]

Well, I went ahead and ordered the Chargemaster 1500 along with the LEE charging die and powder funnel. We'll see how it plays out. Maybe I'll even make a YouTube video of it...!

I would not normally go to such great lengths to accomodate a powder/gun combination (I would usually either live with the inconsistency hassle or switch powders), but my SP101 is VERY happy with the Herco pushing the Missouri Bullet Co.' s 140-grain .357 pills.

Yes, it will certainly be slower than running the LnL AP normally, but it should be at least somewhat faster than single-staging them.

I'm still going to consider getting a Quick Measure in the future.

Thanks y'all for your help.

[Crashbox]

Got the new toys today.

Compared to single-stage loading, it is about 20-25% faster tops. I loaded 400 rounds this evening to test it out and after I tweaked a few of the scale settings, it did go somewhat faster.

Whether I will grow tired of this method remains to be seen- in all likelihood I will, but when those times occur I just think of how it was 150 years ago... it is a workable solution for now. It is nice to have confidence in the charges being dispensed.

And the RCBS Lock-Out Die is an absolute MUST!

...the Chargemaster also gives me "justification" to finally get that .416 Rigby I've wanted...

[bbqncigars]

I've been very happy with my B & M measure for target shooting. It is very consistent with Varget and 4759, two powders that don't play well with most measures. Crashbox: check out some of the AP accessories here. Having good light over the shell plate really helps, as does an ergonomic roller handle. Just the ticket for those long sessions.

[tobnpr]

Did you get the Chargemaster scale alone, or the combo with the dispenser?

[Crashbox]

I got the combination. I used an RCBS 750 for verification before I got this one.

I have to admit that it is a pretty slick unit.

[jmorris]

I have read posts by people who manually drop charges on their turret and progressive presses when working up loads. Weigh and charge5 chargesatoneweight, then 5 more at the next increment. It simply does not make sense to use a powder measure for that sort of task.

I used to work up the way you describe but found it takes much longer than starting out low and loading one round, chronograph, adjust, shoot another and continue until you get to the PF you want and load as many as you want. I can do this for 4 powders with 3 different bullet weights in under 2 hours and never have to pull a bunch of bullets that were "too hot".

One of the reasons I don't sell my SD's is that I can get back home and swap the powder bar directly from the SD into a 650/1050 and start loading. So simple it doesn't make sense to do it the way I used to.