Walther PP

MRH · February 10, 2000, 07:37 PM

I have a 90% Walther PP .32, made in Germany, serial no. 371xxx, with a lanyard ring and an eagle with an "N" under it on the barrel and right side of frame, and on the left side of the frame after the Walther markings. On the left side of the frame, just above the trigger guard, is the marking "CA.I. ST. ALB. VT." Barrel is great, and it came in a cardboard box with two manuals, both in German.

I'm curious as to when the gun was made, and what it might be worth ... my curiosity is piqued regarding the box and manuals, which doesn't seem logical with a military origin.

Many thanks.

fal308 · February 11, 2000, 09:16 AM

Perhaps Harley, Jim or someone else will chime in with most of the information you need and I'm not too up on Nazi proofed firearms but the "C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT." is the importer, Century Arms International out of St. Albans, Vermont.

Harley Nolden · February 11, 2000, 09:57 AM

MRH:
The PP was introduced in 1928 and was the first successful commercial double action pistol. It was mfg'd in finishes of blue, silver and gold, and with three different types of engraving. Grips were generally two piece black or whit plastic with a Walther banner on each Grip. There are many variations of the PP and numerous NSDAP markings seen on the pre-1946 models that were produced during the Nazi regime.

Current Values

EXC=hIGH POLISHED FINISH=$450.00 POOR=$175.00

EXC=MILLED FINISH=EXC\4375.00 POOR=$125.00

In my opinion; although the manuals appear civilian with a Military Model, they could have been issued in that manner. Knowning the German intelect, they probably saved money by using the civilian manual. The manuals will enhance the value of the piece, however, I cannot comment on how much.

HJN

James K · February 11, 2000, 11:02 AM

Hi guys,

I don't have the number lists handy, but if it is marked "Zella-Mehlis Thur." it is pre-war/wartime. If it is marked "Ulm-Donau" it is post war. The "eagle N" is the Nitro proof mark. The eagles vary depending on the era.

Even if it is wartime, in the absence of military markings, it is probably a civilian or police gun in spite of the lanyard loop.

AFAIK (I am willing to be corrected), there was no military manual or box for the PP/PPK. While thousands were issued to military personnel, they were not really a standard pistol, like the P.38. Many were purchased by police (PP means Polizei Pistole, PPK means Polizei Pistole Kriminal - the German word "Kriminal" means "detective"), Nazi party organizations, and outfits like the Treasury Police.

Some were made on contract for such organizations, and these are marked with the logo or initials of the organization.

Jim

Mark H · February 11, 2000, 11:06 AM

Thanks for the help, fellas.

panzerfuehrer · February 11, 2000, 11:09 AM

Jim, not to be contentious, but I believe PPK stands for Pistole Polizei Kurz, kurz being German for short.
I'll shut up now.

------------------
Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

Mark H · February 11, 2000, 11:43 AM

Now I'm confused ... the eagle and the N threw me off. The barrel is marked with it, along with another "antler" proof mark, and is also marked two other places with it on the frame ... pistol was made in Ulm ... I put about 50 rounds through it this morning of various ammunition and am very pleased with it. No misfeeds; two failures to cock the gun although it fed the round (I attribute this to limp-wristing it?).

Any idea exactly what year the gun might have been made, based on the serial no?

Many thanks.

James K · February 11, 2000, 04:36 PM

Hi, Mark and Panzerfuehrer,

The gun is postwar. The stag horn is the mark of the Ulm proofhouse. I can't tell you the date made right now, as my serial number lists are buried somewhere. If I find them, I'll get back to you.

Armor leader:

No, the meaning is as I said. Odd as it sounds to our ears, the German word "kriminal" really does mean "detective". A detective novel is a "kriminal Roman". The word for "criminal" (a crook) is "Kriminelle". So the PPK is the equivalent to the Colt Detective Special.

Jim

Harley Nolden · February 11, 2000, 05:38 PM

Auf De Deutcher hat der gesaght:

Jim is correct in his definition. My sources, Geman Wife of 40 yrs, agrees with him. Pistole Policie Kriminal meaning detective)

I have seen the phrase, in German, 9mm kurz, but never 9mm kriminale or how ever it was spelled.

HJN

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited February 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited February 11, 2000).]

Mark H · February 11, 2000, 06:18 PM

Thanks for all the help. This really is a fun gun to shoot ... and interesting.

panzerfuehrer · February 11, 2000, 07:28 PM

Tank Commander actually....

Anyway, I stand corrected on the PPK designation, and that it is indeed "Kriminal". Walther's website specifies that the PPK fires the "9mm kurz", so I apologize for my error.

I was aware that Kriminal denotes a detective, z.B., Kriminalamt = Detective Bureau. The detective novel BTW, is a compound and properly Kriminalroman

.

Tschüß,

------------------
Panzerführer

Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

February 10, 2000, 07:37 PM	#1
MRH Member Join Date: February 10, 2000 Posts: 61	I have a 90% Walther PP .32, made in Germany, serial no. 371xxx, with a lanyard ring and an eagle with an "N" under it on the barrel and right side of frame, and on the left side of the frame after the Walther markings. On the left side of the frame, just above the trigger guard, is the marking "CA.I. ST. ALB. VT." Barrel is great, and it came in a cardboard box with two manuals, both in German. I'm curious as to when the gun was made, and what it might be worth ... my curiosity is piqued regarding the box and manuals, which doesn't seem logical with a military origin. Many thanks.

February 11, 2000, 09:16 AM	#2
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Perhaps Harley, Jim or someone else will chime in with most of the information you need and I'm not too up on Nazi proofed firearms but the "C.A.I. ST. ALB. VT." is the importer, Century Arms International out of St. Albans, Vermont.

February 11, 2000, 09:57 AM	#3
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	MRH: The PP was introduced in 1928 and was the first successful commercial double action pistol. It was mfg'd in finishes of blue, silver and gold, and with three different types of engraving. Grips were generally two piece black or whit plastic with a Walther banner on each Grip. There are many variations of the PP and numerous NSDAP markings seen on the pre-1946 models that were produced during the Nazi regime. Current Values EXC=hIGH POLISHED FINISH=$450.00 POOR=$175.00 EXC=MILLED FINISH=EXC\4375.00 POOR=$125.00 In my opinion; although the manuals appear civilian with a Military Model, they could have been issued in that manner. Knowning the German intelect, they probably saved money by using the civilian manual. The manuals will enhance the value of the piece, however, I cannot comment on how much. HJN

February 11, 2000, 11:02 AM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi guys, I don't have the number lists handy, but if it is marked "Zella-Mehlis Thur." it is pre-war/wartime. If it is marked "Ulm-Donau" it is post war. The "eagle N" is the Nitro proof mark. The eagles vary depending on the era. Even if it is wartime, in the absence of military markings, it is probably a civilian or police gun in spite of the lanyard loop. AFAIK (I am willing to be corrected), there was no military manual or box for the PP/PPK. While thousands were issued to military personnel, they were not really a standard pistol, like the P.38. Many were purchased by police (PP means Polizei Pistole, PPK means Polizei Pistole Kriminal - the German word "Kriminal" means "detective"), Nazi party organizations, and outfits like the Treasury Police. Some were made on contract for such organizations, and these are marked with the logo or initials of the organization. Jim

February 11, 2000, 11:06 AM	#5
Mark H Junior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 9	Thanks for the help, fellas.

February 11, 2000, 11:09 AM	#6
panzerfuehrer Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2000 Posts: 232	Jim, not to be contentious, but I believe PPK stands for Pistole Polizei Kurz, kurz being German for short. I'll shut up now. ------------------ Panzerführer Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.

February 11, 2000, 11:43 AM	#7
Mark H Junior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 9	Now I'm confused ... the eagle and the N threw me off. The barrel is marked with it, along with another "antler" proof mark, and is also marked two other places with it on the frame ... pistol was made in Ulm ... I put about 50 rounds through it this morning of various ammunition and am very pleased with it. No misfeeds; two failures to cock the gun although it fed the round (I attribute this to limp-wristing it?). Any idea exactly what year the gun might have been made, based on the serial no? Many thanks.

February 11, 2000, 04:36 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Mark and Panzerfuehrer, The gun is postwar. The stag horn is the mark of the Ulm proofhouse. I can't tell you the date made right now, as my serial number lists are buried somewhere. If I find them, I'll get back to you. Armor leader: No, the meaning is as I said. Odd as it sounds to our ears, the German word "kriminal" really does mean "detective". A detective novel is a "kriminal Roman". The word for "criminal" (a crook) is "Kriminelle". So the PPK is the equivalent to the Colt Detective Special. Jim

February 11, 2000, 05:38 PM	#9
Harley Nolden Staff In Memoriam Join Date: January 8, 1999 Location: Brunswick,GA USA Posts: 1,884	Auf De Deutcher hat der gesaght: Jim is correct in his definition. My sources, Geman Wife of 40 yrs, agrees with him. Pistole Policie Kriminal meaning detective) I have seen the phrase, in German, 9mm kurz, but never 9mm kriminale or how ever it was spelled. HJN [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited February 11, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Harley Nolden (edited February 11, 2000).]

February 11, 2000, 06:18 PM	#10
Mark H Junior Member Join Date: February 7, 2000 Posts: 9	Thanks for all the help. This really is a fun gun to shoot ... and interesting.

February 11, 2000, 07:28 PM	#11
panzerfuehrer Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2000 Posts: 232	Tank Commander actually.... Anyway, I stand corrected on the PPK designation, and that it is indeed "Kriminal". Walther's website specifies that the PPK fires the "9mm kurz", so I apologize for my error. I was aware that Kriminal denotes a detective, z.B., Kriminalamt = Detective Bureau. The detective novel BTW, is a compound and properly Kriminalroman . Tschüß, ------------------ Panzerführer Die Wahrheit ist eine Perle. Werfen sie nicht vor die Säue.